RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (Full Version)

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chamberqueen -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 7:17:51 PM)

I was once given the assignment by a Dominant to read these boards to learn more about being a slave.  I didn't make a post announcing that, just read and read.  I saw both good and bad examples from both tops and bottoms.  I don't feel that the Dominant was being lazy at all but wanted to expose me to the thinking of others.  When I would report back the attitudes that bothered me he was very proud of me for picking up on them.

It can be a Catch 22 for either side.  I don't know how many times I've seen a slave be told "just suck it up" when they are asking for help.  While being a slave can be incredibly fulfilling it is also a lot of hard work.  No matter which side of the kneel we are on we can always learn more, and there is nothing wrong with asking for guidance - whether overtly or covertly.




ZenDragoness -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 9:26:42 PM)

DarkSteven,

i found your words refreshing.

To the OP:

As somebody who made something public shortly ago, that really bothered me, i have to object. Nearly all replies were helpful and nobody tried to shot me down in flames. The replies ( and i was troubled) instead helped me to find the right solution and clear the fog.

Asking for help is in my opinion not weak and i have seen people of all persuasions weak and helpless. The way you go through such a situation is the difference and here are really a lot of people who have good insights and are able to formulate them.




AcademyForSlaves -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 9:53:45 PM)

Ego. Dominants (and even subs) are sometimes guilty of trying to dominate a dominant.




AlexandraLynch -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 10:03:43 PM)

Ah, another INTJ. I've actually said before that I can't talk about it til I've gone off and thought about it.

When I came to this forum, I had experience with other internet forums and real-life groups centered around a common interest. I understood that they are cliquey, even if they don't intend to be, and that if I want to move smoothly into the flow of things, I should stand back, be polite, do my share of the work without bitching or shirking, and observe the dynamics. While I haven't posted a thread yet....I haven't thought of something I want to post a full thread on...I do try to comment in quite a few threads and in general get myself known, and build up a certain character. I have found that every thread I've read has taught me something. Sometimes it is "don't do this because it is stupid", admittedly, but sometimes it is something that sparks a train of thought in me, to the mingled terror and delight of my girl. (grin) Sometimes it's just something to go away and think about, and in the process become more understanding of what D/s is for me, and what it is for those I love, and that is always a very good thing in my book.




CaringandReal -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 10:37:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

In the time I’ve been active on the CM forums, I’ve seen two distinct attitudes towards certain types of posts from dominants, either directly or indirectly via a sub’s post.  Usually, these posts involve an assignment or task for the sub and request responses/opinions/thoughts from a wider audience.  Often, the replies fall into two categories: either the dominant is "lazy" because s/he set the sub on a task and gave permission for him/her to seek input from others, thereby demonstrating s/he is unwilling or incapable of thinking for him/herself, or else the dominant is "weak" because s/he has asked for outside observations on the situation.  This is somehow viewed as the dominant needing “validation” or "bolstering of position."  The general attitude is that this is a piss-poor dominant and, therefore, deserving of insult and ridicule.  Certainly, s/he is not worthy of a submissive or capable of having a D/s relationship.  After all, the only good dominant is one who is utterly secure in his/her place, has every conceivable aspect of his/her life in perfect order, and never needs to receive input from anyone because s/he’s got everything under control.
 
On the other hand, when a dominant does something and doesn’t ask permission, but merely posts thoughts, experiences, or opinions without apology, it’s often the case that s/he is equally ridiculed and belittled for succumbing to "Top’s Disease."  The dominant is presumed to be arrogant, living in a fantasy, or abusive.  A significant number of posters feel it is their rightful place to take this dastardly dom down a peg or three.  After all, the only good dominant is one who shows humility, asks for input from those with experience who may be able to provide insight s/he has not previously considered, and who demonstrates his/her humanity through vulnerability.
 
Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?
 
I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.  Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often?  Is a dominant not human?  If you prick us, do we not bleed?  In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy."  Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed.  But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me? 


This catch-22 only happens in the context of a "bdsm community." If you are not part of such a community, you never have a problem with this sort of thing. It's one of the big difficulties I have always had with communities formed around a sexual preference, whatever the sexual preference. Instead of people just doing what they love and enjoy most, they talk about it and hear others talking about it and experience (sometimes real, sometimes imagined) pressure either from others or from themselves to conform to what the rest of the group (or the majority or the leaders) seem to be doing rather than what suits them. People form expectations for each other as members of a group. Sexual expression, however, is something that is very ideosyncratic and personal. It's slightly different for everyone, and it's deadly to expect others to behave similiarly or to all follow a particular code. BDSM sex gets these codes of ethics or right behavior formed around it more than other sexual orientations proabably because people regard it as so potentially dangerous.

If this sort of thing is starting to eat at you, the solution is simple: disconnect from the community. Maybe not forever, but long enough to recover yourself. When you are part of a group for a long time disconnecting can be hard to do, I know. You feel like you need the support the advice, the stimulating ideas and input. Or you may feel equally strongly that you need to make contributions, participate, help out. But you don't need any of that, not really. All you need is yourself and you and your partner(s)' happiness, really. It's refreshing and revitalizing not to read other peoples' opinions on how you should behave for several months. You can feel yourself, and your own desires and personal ethics and direction return and you begin to remember what it feels like when other peoples' opinions on how you should lead your life don't matter in the least. What matters is how you feel about your decisions and how they affect those you care about. :)

I know this response seems to be avoiding the specific issue you wrote about. But that's on purpose: what other people think, on a message board where everyone is anonymous , in the long run, really doesn't matter. It won't affect your life the way having a baby, contracting a disease, dying, moving across country, getting a great new job will. Although it can, if you let it, make you feel pretty miserable inside for no reason whatsoever. I think it's easy to get caught up in communities becuase we are such social creatures. For most people, it feels natural and good to join groups. But a lot of us make the mistake of giving them far too much power over ourselves. We get mad when someone we've never met and never will meet types something stupid in a message or even worse, when something unthinking or callous that some stranger types hurts our feelings. We feel bad when we don't seem to be living up to what the majority in the group think is the right way to do things. We accept other people's attitudes, viewpoints, worldviews, spins (or Weltanschauungs, if you prefer) all too easily. It's part of being in the group: accepting and being accepted: exchanging ideas and coming up with some percieved common ground. In fact when you are part of a social group you catch others' ideas like they are highly contagious diseases! And in the effect they can have on our psyches they somewhat resemble diseases. While social conformance has it's place and is pretty important in certain types of groups, it's deadly in a sphere as personal and individualstic as the expression of one's sexuality.

If you choose stay within a community conflicts and stresses similar to the one you described above will probably continue to arise. Some people want a community bad enough to put up with that. Some are capable of surfing on top of such social concerns, realizing that they're empty, not real in the sense that actual events happening to you are real. But not everyone thinks or experiences that way. For some of us group ideas are seem very real, and the only way to stop the bad effects these ideas cause is to entirely or mostly disconnect with the group producing them.




pdv99 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 1:08:32 AM)

IMHO - in many walks of life not just BDSM, people who have real confidence and competence have no problem asking others opinions when they try something new to them. They are sufficiently secure in their self confidence to value the wisdom and experience of others. and have no delusions of omnipotence.

The dominants whom subs might beware of are those who need to bolster their egos by slagging off others in public. Very often they are insufficiently secure to ask for advice or admit inexperience, and so may try to bluff it out and attempt something they are not competent in, for fear of appearing weak or ignorant - and consequently put others at risk.




Ialdabaoth -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 2:54:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

For some Doms, those are the expectations we willingly walk into. Depending on the level of power exchange a D-type wants, I'd say it's a degree of expectation that most (if not all) D-types should hold themselves to.


In some ways, yes, but it's also a "division of labor" thing.

For example: I've kept girls for the specific, sole task of telling me when I'm about to be disastrously wrong. It was a *bizzare* relationship from the outside, but it was absolutely indespensible. Having a "personal mentat" around gives someone else the responsibility of double-checking my calculations, allowing me to simply decide whether to listen to their objections or not.

My job isn't to always be right, my job is to always be responsible. It's my job to put the people best capable of spotting my flaws in the position to do so, and to tell me about them - and then to choose when to listen to them, and to take responsibility when my failure to do so harms something I care about. I'm not supposed to be "perfect" - I'm merely supposed to seek perfection with every fiber of my being, and to own up explicitly to all the places where I'm not perfect.





eyesopened -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 3:58:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterUnknown
Dominate


Sorry I am not going to help but its Dominant, dominate is an action


Sorry, but when correcting other people's English usage, please use the correct words.  ITS is the possessive pronoun.  II'S is the contraction.




colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 4:03:21 AM)

Yeah EyesOpened, I am very lazy when it comes to punctuation. It was very hypocritical of me. It is just that for some reason people using the word dominate really bugs me.




eyesopened -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 4:23:50 AM)

LOL  I understand.  It bugs me when people confuse its with it's.  It is not punctuation, it becomes a whole different word, much like leaving out an 'n' changes a noun to a verb.  Helpful hint, use the apostrophe when thinking of two words (it is).  I remember it because it seems silly to add a character to shorten the two words into one.  Thank all gods the word tis is allowed either with or without the apostrophe.

Now, was the subject of this thread about dominants being criticized or message boards being a place where people feel almost compelled to be critical or something?  Don't know, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet.




IronBear -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 5:10:48 AM)

I post as I live, and seek validation from no one. However often enough I will run something past people whose judgements and experience I trust. I walked away from, local BDSM communities because I tire of politics and being targeted for standing for what I believe. I guess I've been here for more than a few years now and the old hands know my posts and how I react. Some of them have become people I admire and who seem to have some degree of respect for me even though we may post in opposite sides of a debate. I do have a simple philosophy in life which reflect here. You either like me, hate me, or think nothing about me. The choice is yours and whilst obviously I enjoy positive posts and even better the delightful friend cmails, I loose no sleep over thoase who dislike me or what I believe in. A clique is only as strong as you allow it to effect you. 




NihilusZero -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 7:00:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

For some Doms, those are the expectations we willingly walk into. Depending on the level of power exchange a D-type wants, I'd say it's a degree of expectation that most (if not all) D-types should hold themselves to.


In some ways, yes, but it's also a "division of labor" thing.

For example: I've kept girls for the specific, sole task of telling me when I'm about to be disastrously wrong. It was a *bizzare* relationship from the outside, but it was absolutely indespensible. Having a "personal mentat" around gives someone else the responsibility of double-checking my calculations, allowing me to simply decide whether to listen to their objections or not.

My job isn't to always be right, my job is to always be responsible. It's my job to put the people best capable of spotting my flaws in the position to do so, and to tell me about them - and then to choose when to listen to them, and to take responsibility when my failure to do so harms something I care about. I'm not supposed to be "perfect" - I'm merely supposed to seek perfection with every fiber of my being, and to own up explicitly to all the places where I'm not perfect.

25 points.
+25 more for a novel angle of self-critique I hadn't previously thought of.

(Note: See? Cumulative!)




LadyPact -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 8:23:01 AM)

While in the OP the extremes are brought to light, there is also what one might call a happy medium.  In the majority of threads here, I find that those able to be founded somewhere in the middle of the spectrum are received well and those with questions find good advice.

I may be, perhaps, a bit colored in My response because of My experience here.  In My number of posts, I have written a number of originals.  Some, I admit, have been written solely for entertainment.  Some have been written because they have been a reflection of My life and My experiences.  In that time, I've been called out once or twice.  When I've been full of shit, people said so, and in saying so, I found a greater respect for those who were willing to do so, rather than the PC crowd who were willing to blow smoke up My ass.  I learn more in those few posts of honesty than from the scores of folks who would prefer to coddle Me because it is the kinder, gentler way.




LaTigresse -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 10:06:18 AM)

I might be a weirdo but I don't really worry about being seen in any specific ubercool dominant light. The only concern I have as far as posting here is making sure my words convey my actual intent. I know that what I am thinking, is often not reflected the way I intend, through my typed words.

If being myself, being true to my own nature, is not up to some strangers expectation of what I should be, I don't give a rat's ass. There's not much, anyone here can write, that will upset me.

I will not ever bring personal relationship issues here for advice, not ever. The reason being, no matter how well I try to describe the situation and the people involved, the readers will not get the whole picture. It's just not possible. Given that the readers cannot know all the details, there is no way they can give me better advice about my personal stuff than the people in my life that do know so much more. The other reason, I generally don't ask ANYone for relationship advice. I tend to do a pretty good job working things out all by myself.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 12:55:25 PM)

One thing I have to say, is that I devoted more of my time and energy to my relationship compared to making posts on this website anymore.

There are a couple of people I have zero use for now on the message boards, and if I were to see them in personal I would not bite my tounge because they never have explained themselves nor their actions.

Seriously, everybody is/are not complete strangers to one anotehr. Some people will attempt to exploit any personal relationships issues for their own gain.

If you and your partner both use this site, put some additional thought and consideration into it. The threads you start, your partner will end up probally reading. Also, some some of the people your partner may be chatting with on a friendly basis may have their own hidden agendas at work. Not everybody on this site is such a nice wonderful person.

Seriously, use some thought care and reason of posting personal relationships issue on here, if you and your partner both use this friggen site.

There are a number of people that give out great advice and have amazing insight on here though. There are some people I highly respect and enjoy reading their posts.

For the most part, I've come to realize that being more of a private person has it peace and quiet and advantages.

If anything using the Search feature, you can explore similar issues other people have posted about.




LaTigresse -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 1:18:52 PM)

The thing is Whip, it is naive to think otherwise.

I will spill one of my seriously personal issues right now........burnt popcorn SUCKS!!




colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 1:35:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
Seriously, use some thought care and reason of posting personal relationships issue on here, if you and your partner both use this friggen site.


I recently posted a really personal thread and am so happy with the responses I got so I wont scorn it completely however one of my ex's started a thread on here which lead to us having huge rows and ultimately breaking up, he was trying to get support for something I disagreed with and when other people also disagreed with it he had issues. Actually more of my partners should post on here we would break up quicker.




variation30 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 5:45:56 PM)

here's a catch 22

there's no way for anyone to respond to this thread without succumbing to the pettiness described in the original post or without trying to sound as if you've reached a state of enlightenment as a dom that puts you above such pettiness (by inferring that everyone else is below your level of domly wisdom).




LaTigresse -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 7:26:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

here's a catch 22

there's no way for anyone to respond to this thread without succumbing to the pettiness described in the original post or without trying to sound as if you've reached a state of enlightenment as a dom that puts you above such pettiness (by inferring that everyone else is below your level of domly wisdom).



Apparently that didn't stop either one of us........[:D]




variation30 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/31/2009 8:13:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

here's a catch 22

there's no way for anyone to respond to this thread without succumbing to the pettiness described in the original post or without trying to sound as if you've reached a state of enlightenment as a dom that puts you above such pettiness (by inferring that everyone else is below your level of domly wisdom).





Apparently that didn't stop either one of us........[:D]


didn't even slow us down.




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