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Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 3:49:54 AM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5501PB20090601

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 4:01:46 AM   
Fitznicely


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Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		Damn, they're getting desperate for more Lost plot twists...

Seriously, I'm following the events on Twitter. It ain't looking hopeful. Poor people.

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 6:07:14 AM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		The initial report makes it sound like they were waiting to see if it landed before they decided there was an issue.


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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 6:24:01 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		The plane sent a signal that there was electrical trouble as it was entering a zone of turbulence - they now say it could have been hit by lightening.

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 6:30:04 AM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		This article explains that a little better.

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 7:20:38 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"The initial report makes it sound like they were waiting to see if it landed before they decided there was an issue."

There have been aircraft that have been struck by lightning that have their electrical system fried- their communications knocked out- yet their engines keep running and if they had hydraulic controls- those kept working as well.  So while the red flags went up when the airplane's transponder failed (there isn't ground based radar over the mid Atlantic- communications are based on a reciever/transmitter on the airplane which identifies itself and its position to the ground controller)  the airplane landed safely.  I'm pretty sure the SOP is to make certain the airplane has to be down before really pushing the panic button- you'd look pretty silly if you're telling people that they're loved ones are fish food if they come strolling out of the gate.  But when you know its down (out of fuel) and you don't know where it is- well, when jet aircraft crash, most of the time, there aren't any survivors.

My guess- and it's only a guess at this point- is that the airplane had a lightning strike which lead to a failure in either the controls (if pure fly by wire) or more likely- damaged one of the flight surfaces which under the additional turbulence of a thunderstorm, lead to a catastrophic failure.  Airbus has used composite surfaces on more airplanes than Boeing, and a failure in a repaired vertical stabilizer due to wake turbulence lead to the crash of an Airbus A300 near Brooklyn in Nov. 2001.

I'm assuming that terrorism is unlikely- it would be an interesting coincidence to have a towelhead on board an airplane that had trouble with weather as well.  Only in Hollywood....


Sam

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 10:11:44 AM   
janiebelle


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Even a complete electrical failure would not cause the plane to be completely out of control.  The RAT (ram air turbine) acts as a backup system.
I hate to point to one nation, here...no not THAT nation...but the French.  Let's face it, the Airbus has been known to have its share of catastrophic failures.
It's like the Airbus is a Renault with wings.
j

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 10:50:45 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

a Renault with wings



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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 11:40:59 AM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

a Renault with wings



I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
j

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 12:35:06 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle
Let's face it, the Airbus has been known to have its share of catastrophic failures.
It's like the Airbus is a Renault with wings.


Source, please?

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 12:38:11 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't pick on Airbus- I think both Boeing and Airbus build good airplanes- but nothing's perfect.

Here's an article that details a bit of the design process for lightning strike. 

http://www.britflight.com/wingfiles/safety/lightningstrikes.pdf

Needless to say, the authors give Airbus a clean bill of health.  I'm not sure.

Here's my reasoning...

Most of the lightning strike data was generated by an Air Force F-106B which went into lots of thunderstorms and was hit 700 times by lightning.  The claim is that the propagation of the electrical energy through the airframe is well understood, and they know enough to keep the control systems in a Faraday cage so they shouldn't be affected.  Well, let's assume that they're not bozos- and they've actually done this correctly.  But that doesn't mean that the composite can withstand lightning strikes as well, since there's a lot of energy going through the parts.  The article assumes that the conductivity of the composite is sufficient to disperse the electrical energy of a lightning strike, but I'm not so sure.

Two reasons- 1)  A void in a composite is a common flaw and IIRC, is what brought down the A 320 over Brooklyn in 2001.  Composites are not as conductive as metals and a void is going to be an area of a lot of resistance- which given the enormous currents going through (P (watts) = I(sqr) (current in amps) x R (resistance) is going to lead to a lot of heating in short order.

2)  Boeing has been having issues on its 787 and has been nosing around for a way to make a more conductive composite.  I think they've gone back to adding a titanium member to the fuselage to increase conductivity. 

Maybe Boeing knows something that Airbus doesn't?  But this is a lot of speculating by an outsider....


Sam

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 12:46:48 PM   
Rainfire


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Joined: 1/5/2009
Status: offline 		  I just feel sorry for the families waiting, not knowing what has happened. As someone who has flown frequently, including internationally, I always feel a bit of panic at stories like this. What if it was one of my flights? What if it happened when one of my monsters (who also fly frequently) was on the plane? All I can do is pray and hope for the best.

Every airline, including the best, have had problems at some point. Let's just hope everyone is ok. (I know, wishful thinking at this point but I prefer being an optimist.) 


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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 12:49:11 PM   
janiebelle


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Status: offline 		Remember the Air Transat Airbus A330-200 from 2001? An almost brand new Airbus had fuel problems and had to glide into the Azores.
Or the Airbus with the Epic Fail Tail?
China Air, Aeroflot, Garuda, Air France, there's been a bunch.  Some due to operator error, but more than enough that weren't.
Check this.  [airbuslink]

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 12:52:30 PM   
janiebelle


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Status: offline 		Lightning, schmitning.
What caused the loss of cabin pressure?
j

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 1:04:20 PM   
janiebelle


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Joined: 4/29/2009
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[link to tf1.lci.fr]

For those of you who don't understand French, to sum it up, the guy says :

- Lightening may break some instruments like autopilot and other navigational instruments, but since everything is redundant, manual flight should not be impaired in any way.
- Lightening alone cannot explain this crash
- An unknown element helped the crash, could be depressurization, a shock, a collision with an object such as a meteorite
- A plane cannot be broken in flight because of turbulence. Planes are way too strong for that, they even last 40 to 50 years.
j

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 3:28:51 PM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline 		Messages from plane in Portuguese:
"I love you" and "I'm afraid"
"Eu te amo" ou "Estou com medo" foram algumas das mensagens de telemóvel que os passageiros do avião da Air France desaparecido enviaram aos seus familiares quando se aperceberam que a aeronave estava com problemas.
O presidente do sindicato das empresas aeronáuticas do Brasil, Ronaldo Jenkins, que teve acesso à zona restrita onde os familiares das vítimas acompanham o desenrolar das operações, confirmou ao JN que as SMS foram enviadas pelos passageiros."
[link to jn.sapo.pt]
j

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 4:03:29 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		Shocking. So they were going down and a few passengers managed to send off these sms's.

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 4:31:17 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Excuse me? But why hasn't the obvious been mentioned? Do I have to spell it out for you people......A-L-I-E-N-S! A mothership was obviously in the area; I would think that would be perfectly transparent.


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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 6:19:18 PM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline 		Most popular CT so far indicates not aliens or portals to an alternate universe, but a check of the passenger manifest might be worthwhile.  To wit:
The Brazilian Government was upset that the French were putting economic pressure on them (withholding 100's of millions of 'contributions' to suspect government entities) because the South American Michelin operation (located in Brazil) was using German steel for their steel belted radial tires. The Brazilian government tried to strong arm the President of Michelin's South American operation to use French steel, but he wouldn't budge. The Brazilian Government then turned to the Chairman of ThyssenKrupp's Brazilian operation & threatened to promote a union labor rebellion at Thyysen's Brazilian Steel Unit. Of course, the Chairman Of ThyysenKrupps Brazilian Unit refused. So . . . . to get rid of both men who were effectively preventing the 100's of millions of French money entering their coffers, the Brazilian Military was contracted by their government to shoot down the Airbus jetliner over the Atlantic, thereby taking out the 2 men who were "in the way"
I like this theory better than aliens.
j

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RE: Air France flight missing: Rio to Paris - 6/1/2009 6:23:06 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

Most popular CT so far indicates not aliens or portals to an alternate universe, but a check of the passenger manifest might be worthwhile. To wit:
The Brazilian Government was upset that the French were putting economic pressure on them (withholding 100's of millions of 'contributions' to suspect government entities) because the South American Michelin operation (located in Brazil) was using German steel for their steel belted radial tires. The Brazilian government tried to strong arm the President of Michelin's South American operation to use French steel, but he wouldn't budge. The Brazilian Government then turned to the Chairman of ThyssenKrupp's Brazilian operation & threatened to promote a union labor rebellion at Thyysen's Brazilian Steel Unit. Of course, the Chairman Of ThyysenKrupps Brazilian Unit refused. So . . . . to get rid of both men who were effectively preventing the 100's of millions of French money entering their coffers, the Brazilian Military was contracted by their government to shoot down the Airbus jetliner over the Atlantic, thereby taking out the 2 men who were "in the way"
I like this theory better than aliens.


Conspiracy theories aren't as funny when they are this detailed. Stick to the one liners, sister.

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