|
Arpig -> RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. (6/5/2009 11:32:49 PM)
|
OK I have read the article, and dispute its conclusion that "The idea that individuals have rights against government is probably the most profound influence of the U.S. Constitution". That idea stems from the Magna Carta. Englishmen had rights against their government long before the US constitution was written.
I don't want to get into some sort of pissing match, but there is a whole tradition out there that is dedicated to freedom and the rights of everyman. In fact the US constitution is part and parcel of that tradition, which has been ongoing for centuries, long before the first colonists set foot in the Americas.
I do not dispute that the US constitution is a noble and inspirational document, but it is not the be all and end all of such things, and is not even all that unique. It was not even totally revolutionary in its time, being firmly based in traditional English common law and the rights of the individual (property rights, haebius corpus, the right to vote, and so on). As I pointed out earlier, the Corsican Republic preceeded the US by a few decades, and it and its constitution were very important influences on the framers of the US one. The founder of the Corsican Republic, Pasquale Paoli, was a hero in post-revolutionary America (there are several towns named after him), and he and the republic he created very influential in America at that time.
quote:
Some people are just uninformed. Others have been formed by an ideology which wishes to discount the positive effects of the US. Some simply have never been exposed to the information.
Sorry Firm, I am not uninformed, I am likely better informed on this than most Americans, both the actual US constitution and the traditions and usages prevalent at the time of its writing. Neither do I have an ideology that in any way discounts the positive effects of the US. In fact I am great supporter of the US, and the positive role it has played in the world. I have, on many occaisions, argued long into the night with many people about just that, trying to explain to them that the US are "the good guys" and that Canada is the most blessed nation in the world, because we live right next to you, thus having nothing to fear from our overly powerful neighbour (something the Poles would certainly envy). We have no real need to defend ourselves because we are protected by the fact that the US strategic interests would not allow an unfriendly or enimical regime to overthrow the Gvt here. We can throw our moral weight around in international affairs because of the unstated understanding that the US basically agrees with us, and will 9 times out of 10 back us up, and would be 100% certain to do so if anyone were so foolish as to attack us. I firmly believe that the US is the greatest force for good in the world today, and that it has been for a long time, and I for one am proud that my country is closely allied with the US.
All that being said I still dispute that the US constitution is "the greatest document ever". I also cannot accept Bull's assertion that:
quote:
Personally I believe that for those that are intended by nature to live as such that freedom is contagious and that this document more succinctly provides freedom to the common man and serves as the most refined example for other such creations than any other document................YET.
Certainly the various constitutions that have been written in the years since, that build upon the great anglo-saxon tradition of freedom of which the US is a grand part have refined the concepts and practices that the US constitution was indeed a refinement of in its day. I point, as an example, to the recently adopted Canadian constitution (mostly because I am familiar with it), which in many ways goes further to insure the basic freedom and equality of the citizens of Canada than does the US one, simply because it was written long afterwards, with all the benefit of the 200 or so years of experience and refinement of the concepts upon which both documents are based, since yours was written.
There is no ignorance, nor arrogance in my stand on this, quite the opposite. I am well informed on the subject, and fully recognise the very important place that the US constitution holds in the history of man's struggle for individual freedom. I do not however give it the place of primacy.
Edited to add: I was just out having a smoke (lovely night out here by the way) and still thinking about this and had the following thought. Canada is a lot like the US's retarded little brother, we are often embarassing, and can be a real pain to deal with on a day-to-day basis, but God help anybody who beats up on us in the schoolyard [:D]
|
|
|
|
