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breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 9:28:16 AM   
candisa


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Can you dominants'  please explain to me why you would wish to use this technique?  What do you see as the benefits in mentally and physically breaking down the spirit and emotions of a submissive heart ? I have heard this many times, I don't understand it. From my view point it is abusive, a submission of fear and loss of respect. This does not make me more complacent, in fact quite the opposite, I tend to become more rebellious.  When I find a dominant that compels me to submit to him, it is out of respect, and the ability to trust in his judgement. This brings out  the desire in me to please him, as I am able to follow his orders because I know he will not hurt my spirit or my emotions which only brings the icing to the cake, letting him control my mind and body.

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respectfully,
candisa

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To love or not; in this we stand or fall.


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 9:35:19 AM   
allthatjaz


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Hi candisa

I am not sure where you are hearing this. The only time I have heard it is when some melon comes along and proclaims he is Dominant when in actual fact he's just a melon.
If you watch the boards here you will soon discover that such people get a ticking off and they move along.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 9:43:30 AM   
breatheasone


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i can honestly say i have never heard anyone ever say they wanted to break a "s" types spirit. If thats what someone has told you is necessary i am glad you were smart enough to see it was not right.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 9:43:48 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I am not sure where you are hearing this. The only time I have heard it is when some melon comes along and proclaims he is Dominant when in actual fact he's just a melon.


*laughs and laughs* yup. I can't award points the way Nihilus can, but maybe I can talk to him about transferring my current balance of 25 points to you for that response.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 10:21:54 AM   
kinkypuppy2


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No real good reason for it unless the goal is to make you a "it"

The spirit and drive in a submissives heart should be nurished and encouraged as it is who they "are"

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 10:24:54 AM   
windchymes


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Yeah, I dated a melon once, but all he did was keep me busy with "Honey, do this, and honey, do that....."  I wanted to run away and get married, but he put his foot down and said, "No, we can't elope!"

Bastard.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 10:44:01 AM   
agirl


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Without them elaborating, I wouldn't have a clue what they meant. I wouldn't take it at face value and decide what they *meant*: I'd ask question after question.....

Which emotions and why?
What do you mean by *spirit*?
What ARE the *spirit and emotions of a submissive's heart*?
What do you MEAN by *breaking down*?
Why do you think it's necessary?
What do YOU mean by physical?

......That usually sorts the men from the boys (or melons, as all thatjazz put it).

agirl


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 10:49:20 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I am not sure where you are hearing this. The only time I have heard it is when some melon comes along and proclaims he is Dominant when in actual fact he's just a melon.


*laughs and laughs* yup. I can't award points the way Nihilus can, but maybe I can talk to him about transferring my current balance of 25 points to you for that response.


Done.

25 points.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 10:54:31 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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I speak best on this subject as someone who has gone through the ritualistic 'breaking down' process, not just in BDSM or D/s, but also in spiritual/philosophical work. Ideally, the process isn't -meant- to be abusive or destructive. What it -is- meant to do is to bring a person down to hir base nature... to that point where all of the masks accumulated over a lifetime of trying to fit into society or into another person's idea of existence (or another culture's idea of existence) are stripped away, and all that is left is the -essence- of the person... the genuine human "being"... not a human -doing-, or a human -needing-, or a human -wanting-... but a human -being-... without pretense, without apology, and bare for the world to see. It is at that point, when the person is exposed and vulnerable, that the Keeper sees what xhe's actually invested in, and what will need to be done to restore that 'being' to its natural 'lustre'. The process isn't just about the 'tearing down'... it is -also- about the 'building up', and there is always the chance, because nothing valuable is undertaken without risk, that we will get all the way to the core and find that there is -nothing- there to work with. In which case, these situations become a real nightmare of what to do with the individual who is -nothing- without hir masks and delusions. Most of the time, though, the individuals who are in this situation choose to leave LONG before the final stripping of the masks.

Which brings us to the responsibility portion of this work... see, it isn't all one-sided. First, there is the responsibility laid on the person doing the learning/yielding. Xhe's got to be ready and willing to let go of the self-image that has given hir a placeholder in the world. Unless xhe's willing to let that go, we will never get through the 'cosmetic' life on the surface of the person and into the 'heartwood' underneath. Second, there is the responsibility for restoration on the part of the Keeper -- if you don't plan on restoring the person you've taken apart, then don't even start the process, because the -last- thing that most folks need is to have pieces of themselves scattered hither and yon with no idea of how to put back what's been stripped away.

Getting to this point in a relationship is rarely something that happens overnight, and there are both productive and destructive ways of getting there. It is not inherently -bad-, for someone who is genuinely ready to explore hirself that deeply, and allow someone else to direct that exploration, but it -is- a situation that requires careful consideration before being undertaken.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/4/2009 10:56:02 AM >


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:01:16 AM   
barelynangel


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Many people hear breaking a slave or submissive and automatically go into defense mode and proclaim abuse etc. 

When i was a slave (which is the only experience i have and therefore my viewpoint is from that of slave not submissive) -- i was broken of many things -- somethings were emotional in not only the letting go but the realization of certain mindsets and understandings. Many times these things due to the well mastery and enslavement process -- meaning simply progressing in deeper of each does come at a cost sometimes of feeling physically and emotionally and yes spiritually drained.  Not necessarily in a bad way but in an almost letting go process where what you then receive leaves you better off than you were prior to this concept of breaking down. So to speak.  As CallafirestormBW states above maybe slightly altered lol -- its a stripping of all things hindering to a Man's ability to master and enslave her.

Sometimes especially with regard to such things as what these dynamics create or maintain or exist as -- the old needs to be broken, old habits, old thought patterns, old mindsets, before the new can become part of the slave's life. 

OP, just for devil's advocate sake -- You claim what he does makes you this and that -- have you ever thought of what COULD happen if you took what it made you do ALL THE WAY to a breaking point under the guidance and leading of your Dom?   What positively could not only happen with you but perhaps also bring your relationship to a level you never thought about in a good way.   Yeah its scary to think about it, but are you very certain it would lead to a NEGATIVE result?    If you have never got there you cannot say you really know. 

Just because something is uncomfortable --- doesn't mean its abusive.  I think too many people are so afraid of being hurt and abused that they attempt to label anything that remotely seems uncomfortable or yeah sometimes even painful as abuse and they miss out on a whole heck of a lot.   The OP stated this"

quote:

I am able to follow his orders because I know he will not hurt my spirit or my emotions which only brings the icing to the cake, letting him control my mind and body.


To me, following orders isn't anything close to being a submissive or a slave.  Your fear of his hurting your spirit or emotions could very well be a phobia on your part because you aren't ready or able for  him tp simply HAVE control of your mind.  You say letting him control my mind, there is a difference.  To me, someone who has been broken so to speak and again this isn't a negative thing in most cases i would define as same, its a transfer of power ---- instead of you letting him -- he simply HAS it. 

Subtle difference but a very significant one -- in the former -- you control his power over your mind, in the latter, he controls his power over your mind (and no i am not speaking of hypnosis or any weird mind control thing lol), from what i know of this concept addressed in the OP and experience of same.

angel



HOW this happens many times is based on the individuals involved. 

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/4/2009 11:36:01 AM >


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:12:23 AM   
DavanKael


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The very phrase 'breaking down' makes me cringe and pisses me off.  I find it rather similar to my reaction to the phrase when it was uttered relevant to my ex- when he went into the military. 
While I see its utility in certain instances, like the military, where such indoctrination can save the person's life, the idea of someone trying to do that to me in a relationship makes me pretty sure there'd be violence and I'd be the one committing it. 
No aspect of who I am needs 'breaking down'.  Now, yielding can be done and is highly appealing to me but one phrase suggests a sledge hammer while the other is more gentle.  
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 6/4/2009 11:13:36 AM >


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:25:54 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Original: DavanKael

Now, yielding can be done and is highly appealing to me but one phrase suggests a sledge hammer while the other is more gentle.


I think that the difference, for me, between "yielding" and "breaking down" is that "yielding" is something one does oneself. "Breaking down", or "disciplining", or "shaping" is something that is done -to- someone. It is often true that it is -impossible- to see an accurate image of who we are. It is possible to be immensely honest with ourselves and -still- miss areas of change that would, if resolved, vastly improve our lives and our integration with others. I know that if I only depended on my own opinion of myself, despite being someone who has become, over the years, quite a bit more aware of my weaknesses and flaws, there are still things that I would have missed, to my own and others' detriment. Sometimes, the most effective way for someone to deal with those areas that are either unseen or that we inherently shy away from dealing with is to have that 'breaking down' process -- the externally applied disciplines that compel action where we would, preferentially, procrastinate.

Dame Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:36:23 AM   
Lashra


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Why would I want a broken submissive? The answer is, I would not. My male sub is submissive to me because that is how our relationship works. I've never had to break him or do anything else other than train him in how I like things done. We are a happy couple with a D/s dynamic in place.

Now I have heard the saying that a sub "needs to be broken" and that is usually said by people who have read it in books and want to live the fantasy of breaking someone. I have seen it done in movies where the female slave-to-be  is raped and beaten and the male character states that they do this to "break" the female so she will be to afraid to challenge them or try to escape. Some people really buy into this and desire it in real life. Personally I find it stomach turning but that is just me.

~Lashra


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:36:30 AM   
leadership527


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I'm guessing that this is partially simply a word choice thing. Honestly, I have no use for the word "breaking" in any context whatsoever as it relates to the most important woman in my life. Now... am I actively engaged in reshaping her? You bet.

Under the covers though, I think there's another angle. I am deeply suspicious that the "breaking" terminology is a part of the power/control gestalt that I so actively mistrust. There'll be no adversarial thinking in my relationship if I can avoid it. I lead my wife. I do not "break" her. We are not in a contest together. I have no need to break her... I simply point a direction and she goes there.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:42:57 AM   
VampiresLair


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I think the problem with breaking down a sub is the negative sound of the phrase. Some new dominants take it so literally at face value that it does border on abuse. Others, who know and understand what they are doing, are able to deconstruct the s types personality and get rd of undesirable attributes. Things like ideals that were ingrained from youth that are not applicable but make the s type feel uncomfortable about their position. Things like negative habits or destructive ideas can be weeded out. What is left is then reassembled into a happier, better (if done right) person.

This is not something to be taken lightly, not to be tried by someone who doesnt know what they are doing. It can go horribly wrong, and be as destructive as it is constructive if one isnt careful.

DV


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:45:01 AM   
colouredin


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Problem as I see it is that if you are breaking someone down to their essence then you better be damn sure you can build them back up again.

When I hear this term normally it is not about the individual at all, it is a dominant who wants to remove the personality of the person so that they are able to be what the dominant wants of them, problem there then is if the relationship breaks down has this person lost themselves, that to me is when it become abusive, making someone rely so heavily on you that they are unable to cope, loose their emotional networks. We can not assume that all people are ethically upstanding people. Often 'breaking' someone is abusing them. I do not know if there are many people I would trust to be that vulnerable with.

Or ditto to what Marie said.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:47:01 AM   
LaTigresse


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Okay, I am going to forgo the first reply that came to my mind and give a more, matuuuuurrrrre and thoughtful one. (blowing a kiss to M11 to help her recover from her shock at that.....)

While I have met, and been contacted by a great many people I would dearly LOVE to break and smash down....(insert Phoebe face), why would I want to do that to a perfectly good submissive/slave??

For a moment, let's imagine a fresh, inexperienced, nice juicy.....ahem., yeahhhh. Okay an inexperienced eager new s type. Full of desire to submit and be what the M or D type wants.Will they be perfect, doing everything the M/D wants? Of course not! But break them down?? Oh heavens no! I think the phrase "building them up" fits much better, though it isn't something I would say.

For me, it is more a case of working together, learning and guiding, finding what works and doesn't. But that is just me. Different M/D types have different mindsets as it fits them. But breaking down is just silliness to me.


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:48:51 AM   
NihilusZero


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"Breaking" does seem to be the hotpoint word here. The process of stripping and laying bare veils upon veils of the masks Calla refers to is something I personally would find an appealing process to go through, It's a process I've taken to myself as far as holding thoughts, presumptions and ideals critically accountable.

I don't think I'd see it very differently from an emotional version of being fully restrained and naked, at the mercy of your partner. Depending on how fully you are comfortable with TPE, it's not a non sequitur to take the next step to say that some people do trust their partner./mentor to strip away the rust and dust, and build strengtheners and varnish.

In the way we would trust a personal trainer at a gym to build us intophysical shape, that trust can be given over to someone who will do it more internally. I think these sorts of topics are always easily defensive because so much of what we consider our individuality is so tied to maintaining a foothold on at least the nucleus of our emotional and psychological innards that there is a certain taboo about being so open that you can potentially "lose yourself" (for whatever that would mean).

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/4/2009 12:09:59 PM >


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:52:02 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Problem as I see it is that if you are breaking someone down to their essence then you better be damn sure you can build them back up again.

This is true of many things in WIITWD, if not life. For instance, if I'm going to engage in rope suspension with a sub, I better be damn sure I understand weight distribution and human physiology so as to not cripple her.

Perhaps the fact that there isn't a more universal means of measuring one's psychological ability to properly strip and build that would make many of us apprehensive about the process to begin with.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees


NihilusZero.com

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/4/2009 11:55:08 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This is true of many things in WIITWD, if not life. For instance, if I'm going to engage in rope suspension with a sub, I better be damn sure I understand weight distribution and human physiology so as to not cripple her.

Perhaps the fact that there isn't a more universal means of measuring one's psychological ability to properly strip and build that would make many of us apprehensive about the process to begin with.



Very true, with physical BDSM you can ask about see what experience they have, are they good at needles or knife play what do local DM's think etc etc but when dealing with psychology something that to be honest we do not really understand that much anyway and varies from person to person how can we be sure we are risking it with the right person

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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