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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/5/2009 7:17:51 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I'm of the opinion that a bit of fear keeps us sharp. And one of the things I fear is that Carol will leave me.

This one comment really struck me because I know how important the concept of a team is to you. How do you reconcile trust/confidence/comfort in the concept of a team with the continual fear of someone leaving?

I don't want fear holding my relationship together. I want honor holding it together. Even if, after exhausting all other options, the honor is expressed in a mutual letting go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

The decision is on auto-pilot but that doesn't mean it didn't get chosen... it just means it got the fast track.

Then we're not disagreeing. Like...once you make the 'commitment' to get the E-ZPass (or local equivalent of an electronic toll system) you don't stop to pay every toll.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Even having lived in a good marriage for a long time, perhaps especially because of that, my opinion is that the defautl state of a marriage is divorce. Any other outcome is the result of serious effort to avert entropy.

This thread is suddenly worth bookmarking. A discussion where I'm playing the role of the idealist.

That is an interesting view to consider...and , ironically, you are the one married at the moment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For me? This ties directly into consent and from there to morality and ethics. Since I do not believe in durable consent, the idea that you agreed once and now consent forever is another way to say "non-consensual" in my ears. But, I'm the first to admit that now we're getting into more theory space than pragmatic day-to-day reality.

Fair enough. This could spin off entirely into its own thread.

Although, I consider the the existence of durable consent to be proportional to the existence of honoring a commitment. Maybe be cause I draw a line between that and the motivation to make said commitment work (back to averting entropy).

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

More to the point, I am acutely aware that it is possible to lose her through my own actions every single day.

I would think, though, that both you and her are keenly aware of what those potential actions would be and have been aware of them since the commitment was made, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*blinks* It never in a zillion years would've occurred to me that anyone, not even my wife who loves me dearly, should automatically submit to me.

I'm using "automatically" only directly following the choice of the sub to enter into that role. Did you really intepret Carol saying that she would want to marry you as just for the length of the day she said it?

Again...there's the realism of how good the shelf life of the commitment to a relationship is compared to what is advertised, but it is possible for people to have a sufficient understanding of themselves and what they want to be able to give one that doesn't require re-purchase every day, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What I do think though is that it's quite possible for me to LOSE everythign I have earned through my own ineptness.

Believe me, at this juncture in my life, I am profusely aware of this for personal reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Given the long and mostly happy track record between Carol and I, it would take a lot of losing before it was all gone. I've accumulated quite a few chips over the years. But yeah, they can be squandered and then I can be divorced. As a general life strategy, I like to take a look at my "disaster scenarios du-jour" and make sure that I'm mitigating them. Given that losing Carol would be about the biggest disaster I can imagine, I like to keep an eye on things.

And, at least via habit alone, I'm sure expects you to do so. As in...there isn't this fear of you, at any moment and without apparent reason, violating everything that would be of importance to her and to the relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*nods* I had mistaken your argument for the IE, consent-nonconsent, no choice argument. Instead, you are placing your faith in commitment. I have no faith in commitment. I have faith in people doing what is good for them.

It's not faith. It's a trust that people will be honorable to what they've promised. Now...this is a hard thing to talk about so objectively anymore because (going back to the aforementioned personal experience) I did something completely uncharacteristic of me and did lose something very important to me.

It's kind of awkward not being able to hold up the "I expect it of myself, so I expect it of others" flag anymore while still wanting to, onward, keep myself accountable to that degree of honest devotion and sincerity...

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, but what, exactly, powers that commitment over a span of half a century or more?

*sigh*

I'm the idealist again, aren't I?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/5/2009 7:21:20 PM >

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 6:34:32 AM

DesFIP

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I'm not getting into the philosophical discussion leadership and NZ have been having. But from my pov, if I have to do something, it becomes an obligation, a drudgery and not a pleasure. I don't want my relationship to be based on drudgery, I want it to be pleasurable.

Am I finding washing his sneakers and using Sneaker White to be pleasurable? Not at all. But do I find surprising him with how I took his old sneakers and made them look nearly new pleasurable? Absolutely.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 8:22:59 AM

agirl

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As I said earlier, I would ask for a statement like that to be elaborated on, for an explanation of exactly what they mean by it, and why they regard it as necessary. I wouldn't *assume* what they meant by it.

There have been aspects of me that M has *broken*; my stubborness, for one example. While it's been, and still is, a *good* trait to have, it's not helpful in my relationship with him. Being a stubborn character is part of my *spirit*, part of what makes *me* me and he likes it, but he won't allow me to be stubborn with HIM. He has stood and watched me literally bang my head on a wall , with no escape, until I got to grips with the fact that he was NOT going to let it slide. He's gradually *broken* certain emotional responses that weren't helpful, too.

We've never spoken about *breaking* but it's taken place. Looking back over the years there's been a constant breaking down and enhancing happening all the time, AT the same time. He's better than I am at all sorts of things, things I'd like to improve in myself........and I'm glad he can be bothered to take the time and effort to aid me, year in and year out.

I probably wouldn't have chosen him if he'd announced with a fanfare what he was going to *do* to me. He just quietly got on with the job of doing what I asked for; be in authority and decide what's best for me. The rest came along quite naturally.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 9:31:30 AM

Jeptha

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I'm familiar with some types of "breaking down" that you mention.

(The "silent for 30 days" exercise seems particularly effective...)

I guess, never having done it before, I'm curious how this would be applied in D/s; what the specific exercises would be and what the desired goal of the exercises would be.

Just curious about how it works.

I was in the military, and basic training was supposed to be a kind of breaking down and rebuilding (with the shaved head, uniform, etc.)

I think it does depend on your value set going in, though.

Despite making it through basic training, I was not a particularly enthusiastic soldier.

I did it because I chose that activity as an option - and I went in when I was 24 years old, almost on the cusp of being too old.

I joke that it was either that or the Hare Krsnas, and the Krishnas will take you at any age, so military first it was.

I mention this because I wonder: if somebody is interested in being a slave, say, then how do you "break them down and build them up" to be a slave?

I think I know the answer to that: it's a matter of changing habits and viewpoints and some values (like valuing serving well over appearing impeccably dressed, just for a for instance.)

Even though I think I "get it" in general, it remains a somewhat fuzzy thing for me.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 9:35:36 AM

leadership527

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OK, I think two things...

a) This tangent has become totally off-topic.
b) Yeah, you're being an idealist

Perhaps a new thread or cmail if you want to keep things going?

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 11:39:31 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Perhaps a new thread or cmail if you want to keep things going?

Alright.

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 11:59:40 AM

YourhandMyAss

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Nice theroy but it doesn't always work that way. There's plenty of people who do not think submissive is a gift, nor is dominance a gift. That does not mean they don't appreciate it, however.

And secondly not all relationships are based on mutual love and trust and and respect. And if you can agree to a relationship like that go for it.

And thirdly there are some people who may thrive on this kind of stuff, and enjoy being made to feel worthless. I have heard from one lady that she enjoys her master making her feel jelouse and insecure, it makes her hot and he does so quite often. And so it's simply not true to make the blanket statement that someone who does this is an abuser period. It is if they're trying to do it to someone who doesn't want it yes, but on a whole? no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KateyCaine

Firstly, submission is a precious gift that should be cherished and nurtured by a Dominant/Master. Anyone who tears you down in the name of BDSM and causes you to doubt yourself and feel worthless, is an abuser by all counts, and incapable of having any sort of relationship based on mutual respect, trust and love, not just a D/s relationship.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/6/2009 5:18:12 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

I'm familiar with some types of "breaking down" that you mention.

Jep, I'll answer this in c-mail since it seems to have wandered a little off-topic.

Anyone else who is curious feel free to write.

Dame Calla

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/7/2009 2:54:18 AM

Goddess2002

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I'm noticing a few posts where people reference the military and those who have been in it tend to use the "breaking down" approach. Is there a correlation between military Doms and this being done?

My partner Dom is ex-military and he believes in the breaking down approach...so I'm just curious.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/7/2009 9:38:00 AM

Jeptha

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Calla, thanks. I will look for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goddess2002

I'm noticing a few posts where people reference the military and those who have been in it tend to use the "breaking down" approach. Is there a correlation between military Doms and this being done?

My partner Dom is ex-military and he believes in the breaking down approach...so I'm just curious.

Goddess; Now you have me wondering if I do use some of those patterns!
Consciously, I would say no.
But perhaps I should think about it and see if I can use that experience more.

Perhaps in some humiliation scenes I've resembled a Drill Instructor in that I want to create a stressful environment, but then within that I want to create a calm "eye of the storm" which I can lead the person through by having them focus on very simple tasks.

I haven't thought of it as breaking down one reality so much as trying to bring forth a submissive reality; and then being able to shift from one mindset to the other easily...

...Sometimes there is some criticism of the "external" reality's values - but I'm pretty careful with that, because sometimes we get a lot invested in those.

Plus - they probably are still going to have to go to work everyday, etc., and I want them to feel good about it.

I wouldn't tear down someone's personal identity, but I might poke some fun at how we all try and conform and be good boys and girls in general. etc.

You have me curious now, though - I'd like to hear more about how other people use the "military model".

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/7/2009 10:21:18 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: candisa

Can you dominants' please explain to me why you would wish to use this technique? What do you see as the benefits in mentally and physically breaking down the spirit and emotions of a submissive heart ? I have heard this many times, I don't understand it. From my view point it is abusive, a submission of fear and loss of respect. This does not make me more complacent, in fact quite the opposite, I tend to become more rebellious. When I find a dominant that compels me to submit to him, it is out of respect, and the ability to trust in his judgement. This brings out the desire in me to please him, as I am able to follow his orders because I know he will not hurt my spirit or my emotions which only brings the icing to the cake, letting him control my mind and body.

I would no sooner break or even desire to break the spirit of a slave/sub than I would of a dog any more than friends who train wild or "unbroken" horses would break their spirit. Train them and if needs be retrain them to my command yes but I want that fire and spirit left in tact along with the streak of independence so she can operate effectively and make decisions if I am not there or are incapacitated. A slave of mine is mine to do what I will with because this is what she wants, needs and desires all of her own free will and not because of fear. A slave who jumps with fear and tries to become invisible when I enter a room or cringes when she hears my voice is of no use nor value to me...I do not own slaves to be used as door mats nor trophies. Some may but that is neither my style nor my way.

I'm going to add to this in as much that in some Oriental Temples and Monasteries as well as in some few Western Religious Monasteries, a system is used over years of breaking down a chella or novice and then rebuilding them slowly so they are stronger and more focused on that specific path. This does work because such candidates are chosen after a lengthy period of observation and testing to ensure that they are strong enough to handle the necessary changes. A similar process is also used in elite Martial Arts Homes. Within Lodge we also use a similar system of breaking and rebuilding over a long period of time which is why we are few in number and just as selective. Such a process is not for everyone and indeed it is suited only for the few. Someone who has not been through the process themselves, nor seen others and helped in the process of doing this to others under the strict control of masters in this area should never attempt to undertake putting another through this in a half assed manner.

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RE: breaking down the submissive - 6/7/2009 4:12:54 PM

porcelaine

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the peeling back of the layers is something an individual can do on their own. a dominant or M type isn't required for the process. some people are simply uncomfortable with delving deep within their psyche and hearts and prefer a guide to assist in the journey.

when you're freeing yourself of the layers you are stripping away all the things that don't belong and bringing yourself to a clearer state of being. it is not necessary for the dominant to rebuild a thing. the core has and always will exist. yes the person may be vulnerable but it isn't a negative state. there is great clarity and an ability to see that was complicated when the blinders existed. all the layers were merely things that were self inflicted or placed upon the individual by others. consider them barriers of sort from the truth.

now some can't handle that truth and having their eyes opened can be frightening for them. i don't have this issue and i find liberation in my present state and recognize when i'm deviating from this place. there is balance, peace, and contentment. all the spastic things, negativity, and worries are no longer commonplace. but it is an active state. you don't go there once and bam that's it. you have to work to maintain it or you will rebuild the walls and find yourself lost once more.

in the end the journey of submission is largely related to becoming well acquainted with oneself. some need the dominant to assist with this process of self discovery. others do not. as such, the breaking is truly not breaking at all, but merely unmasking what lurks beneath the shadows instead.

porcelaine

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