RE: Israel says screw you US

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aphotic -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:18:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic You live in Israel. Every single day you are completely numb to the tanks rolling by down the street. You have little or no feelings when someone drives a vehicle carrying explosives into your neighbor's home. When you can, you aid the fight to strike back against those who want your people to have absolutely no land. Yeah, Israel told the US to get a life...get real. Name a time when Israel bombed an Air France flight (not the recent one, but the one Syria claimed in the 90's). Name a time when Israel attacked anyone but its direct enemies? Those who encroach on their land? The US does minimal for these battles in the Middle East. As an American, I'm fine with this because WW2 was our last great victory. We got involved as a country when the evil came knocking; however, we're in the thick of this right now no matter what. The US hasn't done near enough. As a person with a Jewish heritage, you have no right to say that we're saying "screw you". You only read your papers and watch your TV. This has been going on all too long. We've initiated or agreed to every cease-fire, peace act, and such put forth to us. Them? They won't stop until they are right. Yeah, screw Israel. They are anti-US. I believe it was Winston Churchill who wanted the Jewish people to make a homeland in North Africa in an undeveloped area where vicious reaction was much less likely. Of course that suggestion was refused. The Middle East was insisted upon and the result was much akin to having Afro Americans after the civil war being given a homeland in the South and about 30 miles from the KKK world headquarters. And, nothing was supposed to go wrong? Minimal. Surely you jest. Total up just the direct aid given over the years. Add to that the complete hatred the Muslims have for us for backing Israel throughout the years. If we had not backed Israel's location would have 9/11 even have occurred? Would over 4,000 be dead from the war in Iraq? The root cause of this Middle East mess is our support of an ill conceived nation located in the wrong place. And, it has cost us over the years in money, hatred and lives. And, we still owe more? Kirata above mentioned the attempted 2002 peace proposals. What did Israel do with them. Unfortunately when the shit hits the fan, the US soldier is expected to put his ass on the line. How much of the cold war expenditures were due to the US and Russia repeatedly facing off nose to nose over the Jewish and Arab problem; about the location of Israel. Somehow I cannot believe that Israel has agreed to everything suggested. I think it was assumed that the US will come to the aid of Israel and since Clinton had the guts to hedge, that must be scary. You say that this has gone on too long. I agree. This whole thing is a problem with a short tail wagging the dog. Israel may not be anti US but it uses us and then puts us away wet. Consider if Israel had been located elsewhere. The US might have a couple billion less enemies. We've used nothing less than your Puritan background. Have you forgotten that your first amendment really only implies the Christian/Judeo belief? Yes I know it's biased, but what do you really think? Are you so helplessly blind that you think that the first amendment applies to all? Who said shit when the "Salem Witch Trials" went down? Anyone? No. It's a travesty in history. Instead of Nazi Germany, you have our backs and brethren dying to prevent a global epidemic. We've done an amazing job so far. Were we given Northern Africa by grace? No. We want a small plot of land to call our own. Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God. Do the Muslims have a depiction of their exile on a Roman arch? Were they the ones who fled from Egypt so long ago? No. How many of you honestly know the horror of being a Jew? Have you read up on the Hinom Valley? How about where our history goes from fighting our territory to the North and Northeast until there is barely an army left? Victories we hold sacred to our God? We fought your revolution long ago. We fought with honor and valor, just the same as Americans did for this country. How dare you betray us in our time of need. How many Jew's have ever knocked on your door to convert to our way? Any? Nope. We believe that all of us are part of the "light", and every single person judges a piece of what we are. We don't beg for membership. We ask of those who aren't such as us what is right. What is right America? What suits you the best?

Kirata -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The above link is a map of the original plan. Even more interesting is this series of maps, which show how Israel has been systematically expanding its grip on territory throughout what's left of Palestine and into Syria and Egypt. K.

cadenas -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:20:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: viewingthesite11 How would turning our backs on Israel make us stronger, and our enemies weaker? What strategical, political, economic benefit would we get out of not helping Israel? Do you truly believe that all of the muslim nations would suddenly become our friend if we decide to disband Israel? There's a huge difference between not supporting Israeli atrocities (I think we all agree on the Palestinian atrocities, so we don't need to mention them), and disbanding Israel. Oh, and BTW, they are Arab nations (with the exception of Iran, which is Persian). Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity. For that matter, not even the predominant one in many of the Arab nations! Upthread you justifiedly objected to the belief that "Jews run all of the world". Yet you have no qualms about saying effectively the same about Islam Calling countries such as Lebanon or Iraq "Muslim" is no more appropriate than calling the USA a "Jewish nation" just because a percentage of the population adheres to that belief. quote: ORIGINAL: viewingthesite11 If Israel was not at all an important ally, than why have we been supporting them all these years? Would you admit that Bill Clinton, George W Bush, George Bush senior, Reagon, and Jimmy Carter were wrong to support Israel? Yes, of course they were wrong to support Israel to that extent! Note that I'm saying "to that extent".

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:22:54 PM)
Your first two links speak of assistance in training some of our military in urban fighting, to assist in the invasion of Iraq. Okay, that was likely beneficial. The third link actually speaks about the money the US gives being detrimental to the Israeli economy, and that it is politics and not economics that promote this. So you have really not offered much. Now would you like to post the amount of money the US has given to Israel? If aid to Israel was cut off, it would not hurt much, and this is according to your third link, as it would force Israel to cut some of the budget that is being used for expansion, security in expanded areas, etc. The Israeli that wrote it, actually seemed to support no more US aid. What point were you trying to make with those links anyway? quote: ORIGINAL: viewingthesite11 quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Having possible staging areas in the Middle East is not a bad idea, but how exactly is Israel helping? It appears as if Iran and Sysria will eventually have nuclear capability, no matter what the UN or the rest of the world says. Iran can do a bombing strike, but it is unlikely they will do more than give the Iranians a set back. Even if you go three steps forward and two steps back, you eventually get there. So could you list specifically the exact things Israel is doing to assist the US in the Middle East? http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-11-03-israel-usat_x.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-11-03-israel-usat_x.htm http://www.meforum.org/258/end-american-aid-to-israel-yes-it-does-harm

Lorr47 -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:23:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: viewingthesite11 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: viewingthesite11 How would turning our backs on Israel make us stronger, and our enemies weaker? What strategical, political, economic benefit would we get out of not helping Israel? Do you truly believe that all of the muslim nations would suddenly become our friend if we decide to disband Israel? Why is the choice couched in terms of support for Israel right or wrong, versus turning our back on them? Do we have to support their land grabs, or be accused of abandoning them? Gimmie a break. If Israel loses American support, they'll have no one to thank but themselves. K. ........ what are you talking about? Did you just pull a liberal talkity smack where every thing you spew out of your head is nothing more than nonsense that has no meaning? You didn't even answer the dam question, so why bother quoting it? Your calling Kirata a liberal and that everything he spews out of his head is nothing but nonsense and without meaning from a "liberal talkity smack"? I am the liberal and am used to name calling but Kirata may take offense. But, hey you have 6 posts so you are all knowing as to the individual beliefs of the various individuals on this thread. Tomorrow's replies should be interesting.

MissSepphora1 -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:25:53 PM)
Lebanon just had a democratic vote today. It's noting new, they've been having them for decades now. So how exactly is Israel the "only democratic nation in the middle ease?" Since, of course, Lebanon is in the middle east, right north of Israel.

Lorr47 -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:25:55 PM)
quote: Instead of Nazi Germany, you have our backs and brethren dying to prevent a global epidemic. We've done an amazing job so far. Were we given Northern Africa by grace? No. We want a small plot of land to call our own. Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God. It has been stated many times that religion has been responsible for much of mankind's suffering. My turn.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:28:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 2. Syria does not now and never has had a nuclear program. Keep current on the news, man made refined uranium was found recently. quote: 3. Iran may actually gain the ability to make nuclear weapons, but as of this time they have no decent delivery systems. Delivery system to where? The US? You are correct. To other key areas in the Middle East, you are incorrect. quote: 4. Officially, Israel does not have nuclear weapons, UNOFFICIALLY it is known that Israel has nuclear capability and highly accurate delivery systems. The point being?

MissSepphora1 -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:30:37 PM)
"Instead of Nazi Germany, you have our backs and brethren dying to prevent a global epidemic. We've done an amazing job so far. Were we given Northern Africa by grace? No. We want a small plot of land to call our own. Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God." Don't you guys ever feel guilty knowing a christian country is supporting your "plot of land to call your own". You did crucify our God, after all.

Kirata -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:31:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God. Oh. Well damn, that settles it then. [sm=mrpuffy.gif] K.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:32:40 PM)
And I have asked YOU directly to list things Israel has done to be an important strategic ally. So far you have not given much, actually nothing, as the training was something that could have been gotten in other places, and your other link you posted is in opposition to your position. So again list what Israel has done for the US, and/or why they are such an important ally to support in everything they do? quote: ORIGINAL: viewingthesite11 This argument is not about Israel being right or wrong; it's about Israel being an important strategical ally to the U.S.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:43:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Do the Muslims have a depiction of their exile on a Roman arch? Were they the ones who fled from Egypt so long ago? No. How many of you honestly know the horror of being a Jew? Have you read up on the Hinom Valley? How about where our history goes from fighting our territory to the North and Northeast until there is barely an army left? Victories we hold sacred to our God? We fought your revolution long ago. We fought with honor and valor, just the same as Americans did for this country. How dare you betray us in our time of need. How many Jew's have ever knocked on your door to convert to our way? Any? Nope. We believe that all of us are part of the "light", and every single person judges a piece of what we are. We don't beg for membership. We ask of those who aren't such as us what is right. What is right America? What suits you the best? I don't agree with everything you say, stranger, but I admire your passion and your articulation. As well as your ideals. However this discussion evolves, I do hope you post here more often in the future.

cadenas -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/7/2009 11:45:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic We've used nothing less than your Puritan background. Have you forgotten that your first amendment really only implies the Christian/Judeo belief? Huh? quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Yes I know it's biased, but what do you really think? Are you so helplessly blind that you think that the first amendment applies to all? Who said shit when the "Salem Witch Trials" went down? Anyone? No. It's a travesty in history. Ummm... The Salem Witch Trials predated the Constitution. By 100 years. quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Instead of Nazi Germany, you have our backs and brethren dying to prevent a global epidemic. We've done an amazing job so far. Were we given Northern Africa by grace? No. We want a small plot of land to call our own. Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God. Huh again? The Jewish God IS the Muslim God just as much as it IS the Christian God. For that matter, the Jewish (and thus the Christian and Muslim) God actually is the Egyptian god Aten, introduced by Pharao Akhenaten (grandfather and/or father of the better-known Tutankhamun). The Egyptians rejected this newfangled idea of a single God, and by the time Rameses II came along a few decades later had reverted to their previous polytheistic belief. But the Jews adopted it and took it with them during the Exodus. quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Do the Muslims have a depiction of their exile on a Roman arch? Were they the ones who fled from Egypt so long ago? No. How many of you honestly know the horror of being a Jew? Hate to break it to you, but that only gives you the right to demand being left in peace. It does not give you the right to inflict horror on others. And if you do anyway - don't be surprised about those who have lived on that land for generations to fight back. There is only one way to peace. And that is by treating people with respect.

nelly33 -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 12:36:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 "Instead of Nazi Germany, you have our backs and brethren dying to prevent a global epidemic. We've done an amazing job so far. Were we given Northern Africa by grace? No. We want a small plot of land to call our own. Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God." Don't you guys ever feel guilty knowing a christian country is supporting your "plot of land to call your own". You did crucify our God, after all. ummm... the Romans killed Jesus... not the Jews. Congratulations... you're a misinformed racist! PS... even if the Jews did kill Jesus, I'm pretty sure none of "us" were around for it. You fail.

nelly33 -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 12:39:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cadenas quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic We've used nothing less than your Puritan background. Have you forgotten that your first amendment really only implies the Christian/Judeo belief? Huh? quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Yes I know it's biased, but what do you really think? Are you so helplessly blind that you think that the first amendment applies to all? Who said shit when the "Salem Witch Trials" went down? Anyone? No. It's a travesty in history. Ummm... The Salem Witch Trials predated the Constitution. By 100 years. quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Instead of Nazi Germany, you have our backs and brethren dying to prevent a global epidemic. We've done an amazing job so far. Were we given Northern Africa by grace? No. We want a small plot of land to call our own. Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God. Huh again? The Jewish God IS the Muslim God just as much as it IS the Christian God. For that matter, the Jewish (and thus the Christian and Muslim) God actually is the Egyptian god Aten, introduced by Pharao Akhenaten (grandfather and/or father of the better-known Tutankhamun). The Egyptians rejected this newfangled idea of a single God, and by the time Rameses II came along a few decades later had reverted to their previous polytheistic belief. But the Jews adopted it and took it with them during the Exodus. quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Do the Muslims have a depiction of their exile on a Roman arch? Were they the ones who fled from Egypt so long ago? No. How many of you honestly know the horror of being a Jew? Hate to break it to you, but that only gives you the right to demand being left in peace. It does not give you the right to inflict horror on others. And if you do anyway - don't be surprised about those who have lived on that land for generations to fight back. There is only one way to peace. And that is by treating people with respect. The situation gets a little dicey when almost every nation surrounding you swears not to rest until your country is destroyed. This wasn't an empty threat, see both the 6-Day War, and the Yom Kippur War...

Musicmystery -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 12:57:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Our God existed thousands of years before the Muslim God. Oh. Well damn, that settles it then. [sm=mrpuffy.gif] K. Geez, Kirata, I'm browsing through here during a bout of insomnia and I read that you're a liberal now! Damn! Welcome--your membership pin should arrive by Fed Ex soon. OH.....and do you know all the words to Kumbaya? It's important. Hey, think I should explain to this guy that Mohammed based Islam on his understanding of Judaism and Christianity, and that Islam shares the same God with those religions? What's that? Oh. Yeah...you're probably right. Bleed on, heart! Long live nanny government! Tim

aphotic -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 1:04:29 AM)
You blame us for Jesus? The messiah of ...? Not Jewish prophecy for darn sure. Did he bring peace to Israel? No. Was he a proper descendant of David? No. You can't count Mary in Jewish lineage. Aside from the fact, we didn't kill Jesus. The Romans did, and blame them for your fancy little flogging scene too. Our God is the Christian and Muslim God? He is the God of Akhenaton? You mean the first and only Pharaoh to bring up a monotheistic God ever? The same who proposed his idea during the...Jewish enslavement? Please. I would never say that the Jews built the pyramids. The facts just don't support that. On the other hand, you have to be kidding me to bring up the one monotheistic Egyptian Pharaoh who was murdered in order for the high priests to reclaim their kingdom. Oh you mean the same God who has the Talmud and the Torah written in his name? You mean the one who shares only Abraham with the Muslims? How insane are you? What do you know about us? We don't have sermons from books, they are from holy scrolls. The same scrolls which you would call "The Dead Sea Scrolls" because you don't understand our tradition. The Salem witch trials happened whether or not you want to admit it by your country's founders. The Puritans are the same people who took up arms and fought the British. It's called history, and perhaps a course or two at university level would help you. I'm not asking anyone to believe in Judaism. There are plenty of valid and worthy deities around. What I do ask is that you respect our history. Try to know it before you condemn us. We don't believe that we have a right to the entire world, nor do we believe that all of you will ever go to hell. We just want our small piece of what we believe we claimed thousands of years ago. Yes, we will claim a large portion of the Sinai Peninsula because it just isn't an exact science. We've never claimed into Europe. We've never wantd into Asia, and we've certainly never claimed back into Africa. What do you want from us? Read www.theforward.com . We love our allies! We are greatful and proud of our US and other national allies who aid us in the fight for a holy ground. We never said, "Commit a holy war to claim my name." All we have ever wanted is our homeland to be free for our religious purposes. A place to set our temple without shame. Has Israel ever sought an international incident to stake its claim? Ever? Have we hijacked? Have we threatened another nation not in our direct descent? We ask for little, and yet it is too much at times. The US shows class and respect, as all Christians are inheritantly Jews. We don't agree with your beliefs on the messiah. We've always believed in redemption, forgiveness, and holiness. Just because we don't share the same views however, doesn't mean that we will stand against you. How many Jews do you see rioting abortion clinics? What political affairs are we implyingn our will on? We respect more than any other major religion the right to the first amendment. No, the USA does not have to help our Israeli nation. You didn't have to help Vietnam. You didn't have to help South Korea. You didn't have to help the invasion at Normandy. What we are as Americans though is a respectful nation trying our best to do what is right. We aren't always right. Our troops aren't always the heroes that we want them to be. Neither was King David. We have flaws, and so does everything we do. If you see a solider, he/she isn't automatically someone worthy of your veneration. What is worthy is that you believe that your country is doing its best to represent the beliefs of the majority. Sometimes it is a tough 49%/51% split, and that is unfortunate. That is also democracy. These issues about Israel are thousands of years old. How informed are you?

BadJezebel -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 1:24:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 Lebanon just had a democratic vote today. It's noting new, they've been having them for decades now. So how exactly is Israel the "only democratic nation in the middle ease?" Since, of course, Lebanon is in the middle east, right north of Israel. WHAT????!!!?? What do you know about Lebanon? Are you kidding me? Ghassan Tuéni is one of Lebanon's foremost statesmen and political writers. He was Lebanon's ambassador to the United Nations, and is publisher of the Lebanese daily al-Nahar. He is also currently the chairman of the Executive Committee of Balamand University. In his article entitled "Democracy in Lebanon: Anatomy of a Crisis", he writes: A careful analysis of the mis-exercise of democracy in Lebanon leads us to a number of conclusions: The checks and balances established between the executive and legislative branches were made inoperative by an 'evil alliance' between the two, and this took two forms: - The first flowed from the executive towards the legislative branch of government: by practicing extensive nepotism and confessional favouritism, to the detriment of the rule of law, a corrupt undemocratic executive could secure re-election for its party or group in parliament. Hence, instead of emerging from a parliamentary majority, the governing clique "elected" its own majority, and thus could theoretically perpetuate its power unless a major crisis caused a para-constitutional emergency which brought about a change, usually through the dissolution of parliament, the appointment of a neutral coalition or even an opposition government, and the announcement of new elections. The dimension of the change, and its constitutional consequences, were inversely proportional to the importance and effectiveness of the president who was the guarantor of the constitution. The second form of this 'evil alliance' flowed from the legislative towards the executive: because of the executive's control of electoral results and its generous dispensation of favours, parliament tended to act with complacency towards the former's actions, and save for some formal inconsequential oratorical performances, it avoided censoring the executive. Electoral laws, which were readjusted by self-serving legislatures with the complicity of the executive, were never allowed to reflect socio-political change, popular aspirations, and the emergence of new classes or political forces. The stagnation of so-called democratic government, and its inability to exercise leadership, particularly in the socio-economic development of the country, were due to an ever-increasing divorce between the ruling clique and the emerging classes. Lebanese democracy was not only cut off from its historical and political roots, it was left floating in a cultural vacuum. Not only was there no genuine democratic society to nurture and renovate constitutional institutions, including political parties, parliamentary blocs, and the civil service, but the very ideals of liberal democracy were thrust aside by the onslaught of authoritarianism and violent change. . . . . The conflictive structures which defined Lebanese democracy unwittingly conspired to reduce the country to a mere vent hole for regional conflicts. The national covenant, originally an expression of confessional consensus, became a symbol of stasis. Lebanon's democratic institutions, which were intended to help prepare for the race towards economic progress and stronger democratic rule, became vehicles for the clashing interests of regional powers and their local pawns. The Lebanese parliament deteriorated from being a forum for partisan competition and debate into one for partisan confrontation. And, most significantly, Lebanese political parties, through ideological affinities or financial incentives, genuine fears or pure cynicism, ceded their decisionmaking capabilities to their so-called foreign allies. Gradually, the issues at stake for the Lebanese ceased to be Lebanese issues. http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/breview/br6/tuenibr6.html

BadJezebel -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 1:47:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aphotic Our God is the Christian and Muslim God? He is the God of Akhenaton? You mean the first and only Pharaoh to bring up a monotheistic God ever? They claim it is the same God. Maybe you don't agree because in one case the interpretation of The Divine is so different and in both, the traditions and culture surrounding the religion are so different. If we look at the name Allah, you can see that it simply means God. It isn't a proper name, in the same sense El (the Hebrew equivlent) isn't. Furthermore, some of the epithets for The Divine are very similar in Judaism and Islam because the root of Semetic languages is similar (i.e: The COmpassionate). Clearly neither Christianity nor Islam embrace the complexity of Jewish spirituality and mysticim. By the same token, people of the Jewish faith can not embrace much of the spiritality and mysiticism of Christianity nor Islam the reason is not because the God, the object/claimed source of the religion (forgive me, I can't think of proper phrasing for this) is different but that the religions are different. The cultures, while exhibiting some similarities are different. If you'll indulge me, I'll make an analogy: You have a relationship with your mother. You understand her to be a particular type of person and know what she wants from you. Your father and her sister and your cousin will all have different perceptions and relationships than you. There is a final point that I would like to make: When it comes to the Jewish perspective, it is not expected that others will have the same understanding nor relationship with The Divine. They are not supposed to. Benai Noach (Sons of Noah) are supposed to desist from idolotry (BTW: that's icons too, folks) and not blastpheme. Eventually they are supposed to know that God exists and proclaim his name. They don't get the same 613 laws and don't have the same mission.

BadJezebel -> RE: Israel says screw you US (6/8/2009 2:05:16 AM)
More notes on Islam: Allah actually is Al-Lah and it means the God. The epithets I spoke about before sometimes have linguistic similarity and sometimes, don't but have the same meaning. Rather than typing it out, let me direct you to a website I just found: http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html

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