RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/4/2009 11:39:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No thanks........I have some standards.

And I'm sure you want to keep them, but you know what they say...

"If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change"

K.




slvemike4u -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/4/2009 11:41:11 PM)

LOL...okay I'll give you that one......



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 1:15:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Were you able to type this with a straight face? Releasing this information has one purpose and one purpose only defending the Bush Administrations decision to go down this road........


Do you live in bizarro world, or think you can stop the clock anywhere you like to make a bullshit point? The entire thing started with Pelosi's lies and Democrat "special investigations" into the use of torture.



MarsBonfire -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 5:20:05 AM)

Of course torture works. Hell, if anyone can say that with authority, it's the people on this forum! However, the QUALITY of that information is in question, as is the general humanity of those who perform it in a non-consensual manner like this, and the humanity of those who ordered it be done.

Hell, the "enemy combatants" (not to be confused with POWS, who are covered under the Geneva Conventions) admitted that there was a link between Iraq and AQ, right? Even though we know for a fact that those two factions hated each other's guts before the war. So obviously, you can get someone to admit anything... You can get them to admit that they wear their granny's dentures at night while masturbating to a guns and ammo catalouge... if you just pretend to drown them... 83 times... and have their heart stop at least once and have to be revived. Or apply house current to their nuts... or tie them up and release a police dog on their helpless body... or keep them from sleeping for a week... or place them into a stress position for 8 to 10 hours at a time...  (How many subs on this forum would be willing to have their hands tied over their heads and bent backwards for 10 hours at a time?)

Yeah. It works alright. That was never in question. Look at how many innocent women were convicted of witchcraft under it. But tell, me, who were the REAL monsters back then? The women accused? Or the men who tortured, convicted and burned them?



Arpig -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 11:02:22 AM)

MarsBonfire is correct. Torutre does and always has worked. It is a great way to extract confessions, admissions and such. The information gathered is of dubious value, as one under torture is likely to say whatever his torturers wish to hear in order to stop the torture, just ask John McCain.
The issue should not be does it work, because if you torture enough people enough times, you will get whatever actionable intel you want, it should be "is torture the way to go?". Personally I think not. While lawyers may want too argue and quibble over whether certain rights extend to certain groups, depending on when and how they were captured, I feel that it is less a matter of "rights", than it is a matter of "right". Like the newscaster fellow said a while back "This is America, we don't fucking torture!"



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 11:16:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

MarsBonfire is correct. Torutre does and always has worked. It is a great way to extract confessions, admissions and such. The information gathered is of dubious value, as one under torture is likely to say whatever his torturers wish to hear in order to stop the torture, just ask John McCain.
The issue should not be does it work, because if you torture enough people enough times, you will get whatever actionable intel you want, it should be "is torture the way to go?". Personally I think not. While lawyers may want too argue and quibble over whether certain rights extend to certain groups, depending on when and how they were captured, I feel that it is less a matter of "rights", than it is a matter of "right". Like the newscaster fellow said a while back "This is America, we don't fucking torture!"


If the policy is torture until you get any information, thats true. If the stated (and there is follow throught) policy is that you will torture and if the information is bad they are back under the lights, you will start to get more and more accurate information the first time.



popeye1250 -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 11:32:44 AM)

Hmm, "closed door hearings."
Didn't President Obama promise us "transparency in government?"



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 12:05:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hmm, "closed door hearings."
Didn't President Obama promise us "transparency in government?"


Yup. along with "no earmarks" (well, except 7000 or so just one more time)  and

All bills will be posted for public review 72 hours (?)before a vote (well, unless I need to steamroll something through) and

No tax increases if youre making less than 250 k (well, except for indirect taxes, and really that promise was only for one year) and

We'll have a budget surplus in 4 years (well, except for health care reform and other changes that will actually run up an extra trillion in deficits every year for 10 years) and

I'm going to Afghanistan and get bin Laden (well, the Generals finally told me the same thing that they told the prior administration, that its suicide, so OBL isnt really that important.) and

My father was an agnostic (well, he converted just before my trip to the ME so I could say he is Muslim)




Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 12:42:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hmm, "closed door hearings."
Didn't President Obama promise us "transparency in government?"

Any member of Congress can request a closed session. And there will always be classified information.

And there will also be people who leak for political purposes.



rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 12:47:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual


Do you live in bizarro world, or think you can stop the clock anywhere you like to make a bullshit point? The entire thing started with Pelosi's lies and Democrat "special investigations" into the use of torture.


No, the whole thing started when the Bush administration decided that the United States should embrace a policy of safety over ideals by endorsing something this country has historically condemned.



Kirata -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 12:55:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, the whole thing started when the Bush administration decided that the United States should embrace a policy of safety over ideals by endorsing something this country has historically condemned.

It's Crush's thread, but I don't think ideals versus security is the topic. I get the impression from the thread title (go figure) that it's about the phony campaign to portray EIT as ineffective at producing actionable intelligence, which (in my mind at least) is wholly unrelated to the question of whether or not we should have used it.

K.






Crush -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 1:41:38 PM)


Just pointing out two things with the post, Kirata, as you noted.

1) Contrary to what we heard, it did work.   Do I approve?  That's a different thread.

2) Both sides of the aisle, Dems and Repubs, are worthless.  Both sides have leaked intelligence information. 

With our first islamo-terrorist attack on U.S. soil under the current administration, it behooves us all to keep in mind that things really haven't changed.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 2:26:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife



No, the whole thing started when the Bush administration decided that the United States should embrace a policy of safety over ideals by endorsing something this country has historically condemned.



ideals that in your opinion the country has condemned. Not in mine.



rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 2:40:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, the whole thing started when the Bush administration decided that the United States should embrace a policy of safety over ideals by endorsing something this country has historically condemned.

It's Crush's thread, but I don't think ideals versus security is the topic. I get the impression from the thread title (go figure) that it's about the phony campaign to portray EIT as ineffective at producing actionable intelligence, which (in my mind at least) is wholly unrelated to the question of whether or not we should have used it.

K.


To begin, what we've heard in the link is the same old "he said, she said", or in this case "the republican said, the democrat said".

There has been no new information introduced here and certainly no conclusive evidence.

But more to the point, you can't claim to be able to objectively address only one part of the issue.

You can't divorce whether the techniques were effective from the argument of whether the techniques should have been implemented in the first place.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 2:47:39 PM)

I completely agree. I mean we have no idea of the relationship these people had with their Mother, so how can we really discuss anything without including that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

But more to the point, you can't claim to be able to objectively address only one part of the issue.




Kirata -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 2:56:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You can't divorce whether the techniques were effective from the argument of whether the techniques should have been implemented in the first place.

Sez who? Besides you, I mean.

K.






CruelNUnsual -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:12:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You can't divorce whether the techniques were effective from the argument of whether the techniques should have been implemented in the first place.

Sez who? Besides you, I mean.

K.




He is correct for a change, in so far as you wouldnt implement a technique that is known to be ineffective just for the halibut.  (Yes, I know thats not what he meant, but he deserves credit even if he gets one right by accident)



Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:13:35 PM)

quote:

But more to the point, you can't claim to be able to objectively address only one part of the issue.

You can't divorce whether the techniques were effective from the argument of whether the techniques should have been implemented in the first place.


Of course you can--or no one could claim that even if they work, it's wrong to use them.

And clearly there are those people.

Unless, of course, you want to claim that anything that works is justified. And that's a tough one to support, other than purely anything goes and winner take all approaches to ethics.





CruelNUnsual -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:16:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Unless, of course, you want to claim that anything that works is justified. And that's a tough one to support.





It isnt tough at all to support, as long as you don't fall into the trap of moral equivalency.



rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:24:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I completely agree. I mean we have no idea of the relationship these people had with their Mother, so how can we really discuss anything without including that.


The argument about it's effectiveness was only ever a side issue.

The primary issue has always been whether this is something our country should have been doing, and both sides have pointed to its effectiveness, or lack of, to bolster their argument.

Which doesn't alter the fact that the argument is over whether certain techniques are torture and whether we as a country should be engaging in those acts.

So regardless of your facetiousness, you can't argue effectiveness while ignoring the primary debate.



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