RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:27:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You can't divorce whether the techniques were effective from the argument of whether the techniques should have been implemented in the first place.

Sez who? Besides you, I mean.

K.


I didn't know giving my opinion required anybody else to "sez" anything.



rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:42:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Of course you can--or no one could claim that even if they work, it's wrong to use them.

And clearly there are those people.

Unless, of course, you want to claim that anything that works is justified. And that's a tough one to support, other than purely anything goes and winner take all approaches to ethics.



By saying even if they work it is wrong to use them then you are still considering the whole issue.

Trying to say that anything that works is justified is still considering the whole issue because you are taking into account the benefits and weighing those against the moral and political consequences.

What I'm arguing against is the view that we can discuss the effectiveness and make that a separate issue while ignoring the primary issue of whether this is something we should accept as part of our national policy.



Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:44:02 PM)

quote:

What I'm arguing against is the view that we can discuss the effectiveness and make that a separate issue while ignoring the primary issue of whether this is something we should accept as part of our national policy.


Not well.




Kirata -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:48:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I'm arguing against is the view that we can discuss the effectiveness and make that a separate issue while ignoring the primary issue of whether this is something we should accept as part of our national policy.

Excuse me, but nobody is discussing their effectiveness (except as a hijack). The point of the thread, as Crush himself made clear here, is, "contrary to what we heard, it did work." The question that arises is not whether we should use EIT ("that's a different thread") but why were we told a lie?

Can we get that clear now?

K.







rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:49:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I'm arguing against is the view that we can discuss the effectiveness and make that a separate issue while ignoring the primary issue of whether this is something we should accept as part of our national policy.


Not well.




I see. 

So you're right and I'm wrong without any further comment.

I would have expected better, but oh well.





Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:57:32 PM)

You are arguing your own position backwards. We will go in circles.

I choose not.



rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 3:58:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Excuse me, but nobody is discussing their effectiveness (except as a hijack). The point of the thread, as Crush himself made clear here, is, "contrary to what we heard, it did work." The question that arises is not whether we should use EIT ("that's a different thread") but why were we told a lie?

Can we get that clear now?



So let me understand this.  The point of the thread is if it did work but it's not about effectiveness?  Isn't the definition of effectiveness whether something works?

Because, again, the effectiveness is the whole Republican argument coming out of that meeting.

Whether it was a lie is not established by political gamesmanship between the Republicans and Democrats in that meeting.

So the questions remain the same and the heart of those questions is whether it was something we should have done.



Kirata -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:00:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Can we get that clear now?

[...]

I guess not. Dance with somebody else. My feet hurt.

K.







slvemike4u -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:00:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I'm arguing against is the view that we can discuss the effectiveness and make that a separate issue while ignoring the primary issue of whether this is something we should accept as part of our national policy.

Excuse me, but nobody is discussing their effectiveness (except as a hijack). The point of the thread, as Crush himself made clear here, is, "contrary to what we heard, it did work." The question that arises is not whether we should use EIT ("that's a different thread") but why were we told a lie?

Can we get that clear now?

K.





Sorry Kirata we can not "get that clear".Seems rediculousIMO  to discuss whether or not these methods work while ignoring whether or not we should be using them....
Whether or not they are effective....the first question remains....should we be doing this.
Is that clear enough?



Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:02:21 PM)

quote:

Whether or not they are effective....the first question remains....should we be doing this.
Is that clear enough?


Ah. Thank you. So they are indeed two separate questions.

Numbering always helps clarity.



Sanity -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:04:03 PM)


I'm cool with it. [:)]

It seems that the Democrats from top to bottom are fully ready to splay the guts of the CIA wide open for everybody in the world to look at every secret. Anything goes, so long as it makes certain Republicans look bad. Right? Anything that proves Bush or Cheney's point though, has to remain a secret.

No - somebody has to call bull shit!

So, a few Republicans acting just to set the record straight is nothing!

Stepping back just a little and looking at the ever larger picture clearly reveals how all the tears spilled by Democrats over "Plamegate" were nothing but crocodile tears. What secrets could the CIA possibly have that the Democrats aren't eager to reveal now that they're in power? None of them! The only thing that seems to be slowing them down is the fact that they'll have to stand for reelection eventually, and that's it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Wait a second.

Congress members revealed classified information, and you guys are cool with that.

Really.






rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:04:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You are arguing your own position backwards. We will go in circles.

I choose not.


I don't think I've veered from my position in this entire thread, but if I have point it out and I will acknowledge it as such if I see your point.

But I'm heading out shortly so my response will have to wait till tomorrow.



Kirata -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:04:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry Kirata

I accept your apology.

K.






Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:05:11 PM)

quote:

I don't think I've veered from my position in this entire thread


Hence the circle.




rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:09:52 PM)

No, more like avoidance.

I've offered you a good faith opportunity to state your reasoning and have been open to agreeing with that reasoning if I feel your points are valid, but instead you are playing games and trying to disengage from the discussion.




Musicmystery -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:13:09 PM)

Why endlessly repeat what I've already said?

You keep lumping together what is separate and insisting that can't be. What on earth would be the point of continually trying to disavow you of this over and over?

Go your way, be smug in the self-knowledge that you're far smarter, and be done.

Or address what I posted to mike. Whatever.





rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:14:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Whether or not they are effective....the first question remains....should we be doing this.
Is that clear enough?


Ah. Thank you. So they are indeed two separate questions.

Numbering always helps clarity.


First denotes primary.



rulemylife -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:16:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I guess not. Dance with somebody else. My feet hurt.

K.


OK, next time I'll let you lead.  [sm=dancing.gif]



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:40:43 PM)

I have not ignored the primary debate, in the proper topic. That is what you refuse to acknowledge, and what I was pointing out.



popeye1250 -> RE: Apparently, EITs actually worked... (6/5/2009 4:56:49 PM)

Hey! If t works it works!



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