Old Guard? (Full Version)

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sweetsub0 -> Old Guard? (8/19/2004 11:32:08 PM)

Just what it says....can anyone explain to this girl Old Guard Masters training please? What does it entail? Maybe a website? So many here list it, THis one thinks she ought to know before she ends up in it....




MrThorns -> RE: Old Guard? (8/19/2004 11:45:28 PM)

There is a very good essay written by Jay Wiseman:

http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/olddays.htm

There were also a few threads about this quite recently:

http://www.collarme.com/forum/OLD_GUARD%3F%3F%3F%3F/m_20268/tm.htm

Hope these help. If my link didnt take...Im sure proudsub will get a good link posted.

~Thorns




stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Old Guard? (8/20/2004 5:09:18 PM)

sweetsub0,

You could read just about anything on OLD GUARD / OLD LEATHER GUARD that is written
by Master Steve Sampson, Jack Rinella, Jay Wiseman or <stormi's friend and personal favorite>
by Joseph Bean.

Joseph, along with Jack and Master Steve are fabulous resources.

Also, go to slave.org and place a question about Old Guard. stormi did that and that is how
her personal friendship with Joseph began. He took the time to correspond on numerous occassions
with stormi and discuss meanings and interpretations. This past February at SOUTHPLAINS
LEATHERFEST
in Dallas Texas stormi finally had the opportunity to meet Joseph. What an honor.

Please allow stormi to say this before closing. Old Guard is not about a "written" guideline or set of
rules. Old Guard is about protocol, structure, HONOR, RESPECT, LOYALITY, and PRIDE
in who you are.

Please feel free to contact stormi off line at [email protected] anytime. Master has given
stormi His permission to discuss this with you anytime by email or messenger. (on Yahoo or MSN messenger
you can find stormi under stormiKnight_Bear)


Serving,
stormi
property of Master Bear




Interesdom -> RE: Old Guard? (8/23/2004 3:54:26 PM)

A lot of people online seem to use the term "old guard" to somehow increase their apparent worth to unwary would-be submissives. The same kind of people will often grant themselves knighthoods and appear online as "Lord" someone or "Sir" such-and-such.

You need to be very cautious of terms like "Old Guard", "European School", "Training House" etc. If approached with this sort of talk, I would urge you to ask specific questions to determine just what they mean.

The oldest reference I'm aware of to "Old Guard" in relation to BDSM is a loose group of gay men in the 1950s who were into S&M. It's a military term and many of these men were ex-army. Here's a link on a variance of this by a respected English dominant: http://www.enslavement.org.uk/20040521234148134

Just to make it more confusing, SOME people calling themselves by titles or using terms like "Leather Guard" are quite OK and even have good, or at least benign, reasons. If you handle outlandish statements from men calling themselves dominant with the same degree of caution as would treat a door-to-door salesman making fantastic-sounding claims then you should be safe from being fooled.




temptation -> RE: Old Guard? (8/23/2004 4:09:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Interesdom

A lot of people online seem to use the term "old guard" to somehow increase their apparent worth to unwary would-be submissives. The same kind of people will often grant themselves knighthoods and appear online as "Lord" someone or "Sir" such-and-such.

You need to be very cautious of terms like "Old Guard", "European School", "Training House" etc. If approached with this sort of talk, I would urge you to ask specific questions to determine just what they mean.

The oldest reference I'm aware of to "Old Guard" in relation to BDSM is a loose group of gay men in the 1950s who were into S&M. It's a military term and many of these men were ex-army. Here's a link on a variance of this by a respected English dominant: http://www.enslavement.org.uk/20040521234148134

Just to make it more confusing, SOME people calling themselves by titles or using terms like "Leather Guard" are quite OK and even have good, or at least benign, reasons. If you handle outlandish statements from men calling themselves dominant with the same degree of caution as would treat a door-to-door salesman making fantastic-sounding claims then you should be safe from being fooled.


This is pretty much the way I look at it.

i've seen quite a few people over the years, claiming to be trained or taught by someone or other, and hailing from some long ancesteral line of doms etc..

and it really rings of BS. like writing a diploma on a paper napkin..




stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Old Guard? (8/24/2004 6:34:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Interesdom

A lot of people online seem to use the term "old guard" to somehow increase their apparent worth to unwary would-be submissives. The same kind of people will often grant themselves knighthoods and appear online as "Lord" someone or "Sir" such-and-such.

You need to be very cautious of terms like "Old Guard", "European School", "Training House" etc. If approached with this sort of talk, I would urge you to ask specific questions to determine just what they mean.

The oldest reference I'm aware of to "Old Guard" in relation to BDSM is a loose group of gay men in the 1950s who were into S&M. It's a military term and many of these men were ex-army. Here's a link on a variance of this by a respected English dominant: http://www.enslavement.org.uk/20040521234148134

Just to make it more confusing, SOME people calling themselves by titles or using terms like "Leather Guard" are quite OK and even have good, or at least benign, reasons. If you handle outlandish statements from men calling themselves dominant with the same degree of caution as would treat a door-to-door salesman making fantastic-sounding claims then you should be safe from being fooled.



For the most part this girl agrees. However, there is not one single person that this girl knows in her own Leather Community
that refers to themself as Old Guard even though they are highly respected and thought of being a living example of Old Guard.

Old Guard did start or have its roots begin right after WWII when the former military men came back and
were at a loss for the comradeship and structure that their young lives had found in serving their country as well as for some
getting to finally face their sexuality without ridicule. Back then there were beginnings of clubs like Hells Angels, since motorcycles
were apart of the service for some of these fellows, it was a easy flow to find uniform wearing former military men riding "bikes"
and hanging out for the afternoon or day or two or more. Plus, this made it "okay" for those men who had come to realize where
their sexuality really was. Some were married and had discovered they were gay and not alone. Remember back then if you were
gay there was something seriously "wrong" with you.

Old Guard is rooted in the protocol of the military closely. Those young men were looking for the instruction-direction-structure that
they had found in the military while serving. The motorcylce clubs had their "Majors, Seargents, Captains, and so on..." This allowed
a "submissive" man to stand at attention, respond with "Yes Sir" without ridicule.

There are Doms out there (*stormi knows first hand having met one of them face to face in the community*) that swear they were
Old Guard trained in England by such and such house or that they got their "Master's" certificate after passing the training and testing
of ... however many... in this case it was 12 highly trained English and Russian Masters. That only those with those certificates are the
true Master. (Now remember back then.... stormi was a submiissive female named sassy... who promptly pick up a napkin and wrote
certified Master of BULL____..... well you get the idea and handed it too him with tears of laughter.)

With all the discussion and yes even the disagreements that stormi has had about Old Guard, stormi truly does believe in its roots.
stormi admires the structure and like those young men, stormi blossoms under the structure. Structure is something different to
everyone and it provides something different to everyone. Just as Old Guard does, for this girl it provides a rich history of living your
life be it vanilla or BDSM with Honor, Respect for others as well as yourself, Pride in the history of Leather and in the life you're living,
Structure - for some of us when things are rough in life it's the structure that keeps us going. It's a solid foundation of passing on the
torch to the next Guard (generation).

Your warning is very warranted. But there are truly dayum few that call themself Old Guard. Most who consider themself Old Guard
refer to themself as admiring or pulling some of their protocol from the Old Guard. No one that stormi knows wears a tag, or prints
a certificate that says "OLD GUARD MASTER" of ..... bull??? LOL. Sorry sometimes the humor is still there..... [:)]

It would be fabulous if those with questions about Old Guard would attend a local National Leather Association meeting in their area,
or attend a Leather event and go to the seminars or presentations of clubs talking about Old Guard. It's an education that you will not
forget, because you'd be surprised at how much might appeal to you. But remember you are truly only Old Guard in others eyes. Referring
to one's self as Old Guard is not enough.

The highest compliment as a submissive - slave that this girl ever received was after a presentation on a panel when someone from another
community that was very well known told stormi that she did have the mind set of an Old Guard slave, that stormi's beliefs and heart blended
with those traditions. Do not misunderstand that statement, stormi is NOT perfect, unfortunately occassionally stormi's temper and over developed
sense of right and wrong get in the way, but stormi does believe that her primary position is that of slave to Master Bear.

Thank you for allowing this girl her 25 cents worth.
Thank You also Interesdom Sir for your post.


Be Well,
stormi
property of Master Bear




Maltor -> RE: Old Guard? (9/2/2004 9:34:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stormiKnightBEAR

sweetsub0,

You could read just about anything on OLD GUARD / OLD LEATHER GUARD that is written
by Master Steve Sampson, Jack Rinella, Jay Wiseman or <stormi's friend and personal favorite>
by Joseph Bean.

Joseph, along with Jack and Master Steve are fabulous resources.

Also, go to slave.org and place a question about Old Guard. stormi did that and that is how
her personal friendship with Joseph began. He took the time to correspond on numerous occassions
with stormi and discuss meanings and interpretations. This past February at SOUTHPLAINS
LEATHERFEST
in Dallas Texas stormi finally had the opportunity to meet Joseph. What an honor.

Please allow stormi to say this before closing. Old Guard is not about a "written" guideline or set of
rules. Old Guard is about protocol, structure, HONOR, RESPECT, LOYALITY, and PRIDE
in who you are.

Please feel free to contact stormi off line at [email protected] anytime. Master has given
stormi His permission to discuss this with you anytime by email or messenger. (on Yahoo or MSN messenger
you can find stormi under stormiKnight_Bear)


Serving,
stormi
property of Master Bear



Master Steve also has a acadamy for slave training in Palm Springs and Tucson Arizona. They also do a Butchmann's Experience at APEX in Pheonix. More information can be found here:

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/




stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Old Guard? (9/2/2004 9:59:30 AM)

Thank You Sir,

stormi had been looking for that addy as well.

BTW, the one thing stormi left off the list of what OLD GUARD is......
the most important for any slave/sub....(btw, most would not use submissive/sub,
it's either boy/boi/slave.) is SERVICE, being willing to do what it
takes to please your Master.

Be Well,
stormi
property of Master Bear




Maltor -> RE: Old Guard? (9/2/2004 11:31:35 AM)

Not a problem stormi, if you need to know anything else feel free to mail me on the personals side with your Master's permission of course.




MistressSaphire -> RE: Old Guard? (9/7/2004 11:33:42 PM)

stormy, were those of the known Old Guard refiring to people such as yourself as the New guard?

and if so, If someone has been told that they follow the old traditions and are/have been trained in the old guard way would that qualify them to be New guard.

Just a few thaughts from a confused Mistress Saphire




Sylverdawn -> RE: Old Guard? (9/8/2004 3:56:35 AM)

I dont think anyone calls themselves New Guard.. My understanding is thatis a term that Vi Johnson came up with in an article about the changing leather scene and how the traditions of the leather scene are still impacting it today. I dont really think any one runs around saying.. Im Master so and so and Im old Guard.... to me Old guard is a mindset rather than a time period.. You find that mindset most often amoung those people who have been invovled in the community for a long time. They tend to be the elders of the community and as such are idenitified as Old Guard.. The New Guard if there is such a beast are those people who are drawn to those traditons and through incorporating them into their BDSM D/s M/s relationships carry forward the ideas identified as Old Guard.




stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Old Guard? (9/8/2004 7:01:28 PM)

Mistress Saphire,

Old Guard is used to refer to the "elders" of the community who carry themself
as the Old Guard of yesteryear, meaning the Old Guard that came to be after WWII.

For stormi, the term Old Guard is for those Masters that I know that have been role
models of High Protocol, Pride, Respect for those around them even if they do not carry
same sort of standards or protocols that the "Old Guard" Master exhibits.
The Masters that come to mind influenced this girl in how she carried herself as a submissive,
how she behaved, how she addressed those Masters. Because of that stormi was able
to make a place to call home in the leather community. BTW, those that stormi calls examples of Old Guard do not call themself or refer to each other as Old Guard. But are
considered to be so by many in the community.

New Guard, is often referring to the "newer generation". They could have been active for 6 yrs, or 6 months or 6 days. It just depends on who is using the term. There is unfortunately because it might save alot of arguments a guideline of how long to be in the lifestyle to be considered Old Guard.

Goodness knows it would save alot of "well Old Guard is only for gay men" or "Old Guard Leather <or just Leather> is only for gays". There is not one word of truth in either of those statements. As a matter of fact, Viola Johnson is considered to be one of the most respected female OLD GUARD slaves around. Old Guard is not about being gay, lesbian, or hetrosexual.
It is about protocol, service, respect, pride, ritual just to name a few.

BTW, stormi still considers herself to be relatively new to the Leather life even tho she's been active for going on 7 yrs. Yet the compliment was that stormi had the mindset and heart of an Old Guard slave. stormi would never be so bold as to refer to or think of herself as Old Guard but by the same token is very very flattered that someone that was highly respected thought that of stormi.

So in answer to your question there is not really a textbook answer.

Be Well,
stormi
property of Master Bear




LordODiscipline -> RE: Old Guard? (9/10/2004 8:53:23 PM)

Wow.....

Basically the term "Old Guard" has been usurped by those who would have someone believe more about themself than is deserved or required. And, anyone stating that there are set protocols for such "groups", "organizations", "members" that are standard and/or rote and commonly known and used among all the members is on some pretty cheap drugs.

~J




stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Old Guard? (9/12/2004 8:28:45 PM)

again...... it means something different to everyone.
some chose to belittle tradition that is important to others.
some chose not to live the same way but by the same token
show respect for all types of lifestyle by not belittling another
or showing one's lack of knowledge.

as the saying goes... ignorance on HIGH beam is never
something easy to look at.... opps sorry that is what stormi
always says...

thanks ya'll,
stormi
property of Master Bear




LordODiscipline -> RE: Old Guard? (9/13/2004 2:33:45 AM)

If there was 'tradition' in being a member of the "Old Guard", it would (of necessity) need to have foundation in a logical progression/succession and would be handed down rote as a knowledge from one person to the next.

As the "Old Guard" were people who were dubbed that by others (it was originally a derogatory remark directed at members of the gay leather set as a means of coalescing the younger members at a convention by alienating the old power brokers); as they were a lose coalition/grouping based strictly on their age; as they were not a cohesive group of characters with a singlular style, ways, means, and manners - were spread out continentally and not of a single grouping; I am not sure how this might be considered a 'tradition' in any manner shape or form.

Therefore I stand by my statement and would request that you turn out the high beams and signal before you turn down that fantasy road again.

Thank you

~J




Sylverdawn -> RE: Old Guard? (9/13/2004 3:04:24 AM)

The only fantasy is one of you making ... Where you there at this convention where this alienation occurred or indeed is this one fantasy of your making. Having spent time inside the leather community and yet been apart from it I can say with utmost conviction.. that pucky your spreading dont float... You need to read Vi or Joesph, spend some time with Steve Sampson, attend a lecture with Guy to understand that there is a set of basic ways means and manners that identify a person as OLD GUARD.... you unfortunatly fail to meet even the most basic set of those criteria.




LordODiscipline -> RE: Old Guard? (9/13/2004 3:12:27 AM)

If the "Joseph" you are referring to is Joseph Bean (formerly of the leather archive and museum in Chicago) - If you re referring to Master Steve Sampson of APEX - then you are definitively barking uyp the wrong tree. They cringe when someone refers to them in that way and refute it.

Guy Baldwin does not refer to himself that way - he refers to his predecessors in that way.

And, as you do not even begin to know who you are talking to, you assumptiveness is rather striking for someone supposedly schooled in "high protocol".

~J




Sylverdawn -> RE: Old Guard? (9/13/2004 9:19:55 AM)

I dont t hink I said I was schooled in anything darlin.. but there you go making big freakin leaps again.. I only know what I know.. I can only say that I presume nothing.. because you dont you who you are speaking with... I would note that one of the key ideas in being considered Old guard is one of humility to the traditions of the community.. no one need grab at self aggrandizing titles because a Master is Master without needing to indicate his position by a name.. His/Her stature in the community speaks volumes.. Actions are always more important that words.




stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Old Guard? (9/13/2004 9:36:01 AM)

Just as before when there is someone who speaks before removing the stick shift out of park or not having an emergency brake to back them up. This girl will clarify something before putting that person on ignore.

As said before NONE of the MASTERS this girl knows REFERS TO THEMSELF as OLD GUARD.
THEY HONOR the OLD GUARD of yesteryear and continue.... yes CONTINUE... the TRADITIONS

As a girl who exchanged and has discussed Old Guard with Joseph Bean and Master Steve as well, as having had the opportunity to listen to Guy Baldwin, NONE think that they are old Guard
BUT do accept that they are ROLE MODELS and that there is a need to preserve the OLD GUARD traditions of yesteryear.

There is not one of them OR of the local "Old Guardsmen" that EVER titled themself MASTER or consider themself the supreme being of anything. They EARNED the title Master by the way they are seen thru the eyes of their peers/community. They were PRESENTED their MASTER's cap, (just as Master Steve was) by Masters who recognise and have been recognized themself by other Masters. To receive the Master's cap from your peers is an honor that bring both MEN and WOMEN to tears, because anyone can say they are Master but to be seen and recognized by your community and peers as a Master is a gift.

Most of the Masters this girl knows are fairly quiet and have the presence to make this girl's eyes drop even though she was told there was no need.

stormi appreciates all that the OLD Guard traditions have brought into her life. stormi has been very blessed with both friends and her Leather family and therefore feels sorry for those that have no roots to which they can say... This is the history of my ... family.

PROUD in Leather,
stormi
property of Master Bear




LordODiscipline -> RE: Old Guard? (9/13/2004 3:50:53 PM)

Then we are both apparently lacking in the humility that this alleged calling so much requires.

The fact is, I am (indeed) speaking from a position of knowledge and not from a position of emotionality (as you apparently are).

My statement is simple - anyone saying that the old guard ways are specific and rote is not talking from any degree of understanding; just repeating an oft mislabeled and abused notion that there is "one specific way" that 'they' used - people do use - and, that is correct.

There isn't.

The teachings of Guy Baldwin, Master Steve Sampson, et al are wonderful things. They are a fantastic learning tool for those who seek such in their lives.

They (most especially) would not deign to use the moniker "Old Guard" in association with what they tout, as that would be a misnomer and a sincere slander for those that were (and, are) Old Guard.

To state that "this way" is the 'old guard way' would be akin to stating that english is the universal language.

It just ain't so.

They speak of what they knew for their local groups. What they have seen and heard about from other groups. Not what they "all" did.

That would be impossible, as (what has become known as) the old guard was not a localized phenomenon, but continental in nature and diverse in morales and colloquial attitude.

~J

PS: Larry Townsend.... look the name up. He would be the reference (re: the 'meeting' - although this information is also contained in the leather archives - a membership gets you information on the web).




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