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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 10:10:41 AM

LafayetteLady

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Admittedly, I have not read the entire thread. As others have stated, relationship "promises" and bill/financial "promises" are not equal. The "shelf life" of a relationship promise is for the duration of the relationship (again, as most agree). A promise to be monogamous means as long as you are together, although in so many situations, breaking that promise means the end of the relationship. The "drudgery" of certain things is part of life. I don't think anyone enjoys changing diapers, but when you become a parent, changing diapers is part of the deal, with the "promise" of continuing to do so until it is no longer necessary. In every relationship, we all endure things that may not be something we enjoy, whether it be attending sporting events or the opera because your partner enjoys it, or cleaning and doing laundry, simply because those things need to get done. Those kinds of "promises" may or may not be flexible in the sense of life events changing what happens. Promises of monogamy are not quite so flexible, unless as in LadyPact's case, the couple sits down and decides TOGETHER that it should be otherwise.

This has always been a sticking point with me on the whole M/s situation and the "slave's limits are set by master." The slave enters into a relationship with a master who says they are looking for one on one, monogamous situation same as the slave. Six years later, the master develops an interest in poly, but that isn't what the slave "signed up" for. Or as in LadyPact's example of needle play, sometimes our limits and desires change and with good communication, those changes can take place when everyone is agreeable. I think the issue is that the "really big" promises, like monogamy, and various edge play activities (sorry, but toilet play instantly pops into mind) are much less likely to change over time, and so the shelf life of those promises are indefinate, whereas the shelf life of say the promise to always pick up the dry cleaning or have dinner on the table by a certain time, need to be more fluid due to life's activities.

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 10:12:35 AM

SteelofUtah

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I have read through this thread with mild curiosity.

This is Basically a Fast Reply so some if not all of this may have already been covered.

The Word is an Interesting thing. Some people assume everything you say is your word. Others expect the word "Promise" or "I give my Word on this" That being said Few people who complain about others breaking their word keep up with their end of the bargain.

Ones Integrity is often called to the floor when people mention their not keeping their word. I find it Fasinanting the things that get discussed. Not that long ago I was called to the floor because I suggested that a Dominant who was no longer able to deal with his partners behavior pull the collar and move on. I was called to the floor because he had taken responsibility before knowing that she had Mental issues and although the beginning was fun and enjoyable as time went on being with her was causing him to be very unhappy and no longer able to maintain his obligation to her. He Dreaded coming home and being around her and because of it had started having an affair.

He had given his word that he would take care of her. This word was given when she was presenting herself as someone he COULD take care of, however after a period of time the Dynamic Changed and his ability to cope with what it meant to take care of her changed as well. In that situation I do not believe the mand WORD matters anymore. I was chastized because she had issues and he should have the integrity to stand behind his word, to which I pointed out that she did not maintain her part of that agreement. She had changed, she behaved in a way that was contrary to the way she behaved when he gave his word. In my opinion his word was no longer a point of contention in the matter.

When I give my Word it is Based on the present combined knowledge of the situation, if something is changed within that confine that I was not privy to then I do not feel I should be called upon to meet my word as the variable have changed.

In that, a slave who decided to stop maintaining their part of the concept that the word was given based on has broken the concept of the word. How can anyone be expected to keep their word when the word was given on what eventually became a falsehood.

If I give my word it is based on a specific circumstance, and should the essence of that circumstance change then the word can no longer apply.

It would be one thing if I were to say I would drive you to your Doctors Appointment at 5 and then say No because I did not realize the Traffic would be that bad. That is Breaking your word. If I said No because you failed to tell me the Doctors Appointment was two states away then my word has not been broken someone changed the variables.

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 11:33:12 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
Camp 1 see keeping their word as paramount. That doesn't necessarily mean that there are no situations in which they'd accept that things might change, but those are generally extreme situations.

Camp 2 sees keeping their word as situational. Not in the sense of being dishonest, but they think the world is too unpredictable to validly expect people to stick to something if the situation changes too drastically.

Camp 3 avoids the issue by being very cautious about giving their word in the first place. Which means that, at the expense of being able to make promises, they very rarely put themselves in a situation where they're going back on previous commitments.

I 'r here.... camp 2.

The folks in camp 1 I see as liars. The folks in camp 3 I see as unwilling to take a stand. Perspective is an interesting thing, neh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
"I want someone to agree to submit to me by whatever terms we've both lucidly agreed upon at the outset of the relationship, then honor that agreement assuming no material excursions or blatant violations of those terms on my part, in perpetuity*."

*: Any dramatic life-changing feelings that could arise should be discussed before any violation is acted out. It should also be understood that, barring mutual agreement otherwise, the importance of honoring the commitment is tantamount to anything else.

Sorry for the delay NZ. I KNEW we ought to be agreeing. Now I've come to understand that, by my lights, the level of commitment you are actually looking for is so low that it flew right under my radar. I would expect this level of commitment out of ANYONE I had a serious relationship with -- in at least one case, even my online only sub (shared joke).

Despite the fact that Carol and I "choose" on a moment by moment basis, neither one of us is the type to bail at the first sign of trouble... as is evidenced by the fairly serious trouble going on right now between us.

I still vaguely feel like there's some issue sniffing around though... lurking underneath your concern here. Did one or more girls cut & run on you in the past?

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 12:13:48 PM

NihilusZero

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Damn! This thread grew a good bit in the last 12 hours or so. Gonna try to catch up:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

For instance; I take very seriously obligations I take on like bills and so forth.
Those are like "limited contracts": they last for a certain amount of time, have very specific terms, and may be terminated or extended by either party.

The open-ended kind of agreement that NihilusZero is discussing is by the nature of its terms, I think, a slightly different animal.

This is why I phrased the OP in a manner trying to ascertain what an individual's perception of "certain amount of time" would be. We're used to being held accountable and holding ourselves accountable for contractual agreements (which is essentially what a relationship is, except it's normally implied...although, since we're talking about D/s, many relationships do have contracts, which makes the question more interesting).

If you're saying that an indeterminate length is unrealistic (as far as being true to it), then what isn't? I sign up for a 2-year deal with DirectTV and, 6 months later, realize I really wanted to go with the local cable company. Well, it was a faulty decision on my part but I'm still expected to honor the remainder of my agreement.

Now, sure, relationships are meant specifically to thrive under mutual enjoyment and, ideally, both partners would try and figure things out if such things change. But I find that it's indicative of the "values" you speak of that a person's default mental reaction to such scenarios is that they expect themselves to honor the agreement yet if a mutually convenient exit-strategy is developed then it's great...as opposed to the defaulting to the freedom to head out the backdoor when inconvenience strikes.

It's interesting seeing this thread develop because I would have normally considered that anyone with a "you have to work at your relationship" mentality would mirror the way I'm looking at things, but clearly there's a lot more cogwork underneath.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/8/2009 12:14:55 PM >

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 1:34:41 PM

Ialdabaoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

If you're saying that an indeterminate length is unrealistic (as far as being true to it), then what isn't? I sign up for a 2-year deal with DirectTV and, 6 months later, realize I really wanted to go with the local cable company. Well, it was a faulty decision on my part but I'm still expected to honor the remainder of my agreement.

More accurately, you sign up for a 2-year deal with DirectTV and, 6 months later, you realize you really wanted to go with the local cable company - but DirectTV can hold you financially liable for the 2-year deal, and the government can step in and enforce it.

If BDSM relationship contracts had the force of the government behind them, then yes - we'd be in a situation where people are expected to uphold them. As it is, there's no incentive to honor the agreement, so it's naive to expect the agreement to be honored.

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 4:49:48 PM

IronBear

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Interesting that many here appear to be focusing on the BDSM and associated lifestyles and rarely mentioning or taking the subject into real everyday living. Would I trust some one who was a person of their word in some lifestyle or similar (E.G. the S.C.A.) and yet was a right bounder and cad in their everyday life? No on your Nelly! I would however be more inclined to trust some one who I knew to have an honourable and trustworthy disposition in their daily dealings with people in any alternative lifestyle or on such occasions as a BDSM gathering. Especially in this day and age, in my view one should think very hard about making promises or commitments, taking into account such things which may be in conflict in the keep ing of such promises. This is why i am wary of blanket promises and have more respect for a promise which has exceptions such as, providing my work and family committments allow. Whilst there will be those here who will say that such things are just taken for granted I say..NO! They are not unless you are a fool. Have such exclusions spelt out and laid onn the table so there can be no misunderstandings down the line. But then again I am a hard assed, hard nosed aged arsehole who doesn't have much regard for modern society at all.

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 8:02:12 PM

downkitty

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I have been following this thread and enjoying the varied opinions. In my experience, there is a pretty fair overlap between camps 1 and 3. Those who view their word as paramount have usually had to suffer to keep that word, and are careful about giving their word. I would fall in both those camps. I still do give my word from time to time, and i still work hard to keep it even if it is difficult, unpleasant or downright painful at times. That's not to say i have never broken my word, but i definately don't do it lightly, and it is definately not without considerable cost.

I am having a bit of a time understanding camp 2, however. It just seems to me that if you don't expect to keep your word or your partner/D-type/s-type to keep his/her word because life happens and things change, why would you give your word or believe another's word? If I believed that the word i am about to give may or may not be good, depending on what happens in my life or how i feel at a later date, i think i would move to camp 3.

Is it possible that there are quite a few identifying with camp 2, but may be camp 1 the way i perceive camp 1? For instance, in a committed relationship when people change and things seem to be dying, sub-A honestly communicates issues, needs, etc. Dom-B genuinely works to help her (and them) get through these. Both parties sincerely try to work this out, and not just for the next week or two, to salvage the relationship. Eventually, despite all their efforts, it just dies and they part. I wouldn't consider that camp 2, but rather camp 1. Are others considering that camp 2? If the s-type is miserable despite both of their best efforts, wouldn't it be a breach of word/trust/contract for the D-type to hold her/him there? If he no longer has her best interests at heart, has he held his word? Is she obligated to then hold hers? It just seems that the parting would be mutual.

I tend to stay in relationships longer than perhaps i should, but don't really have regrets over that. If i leave a relationship, there is no doubt its dead dead dead deader than dead.

Respectfully,

amy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

Camp 1 see keeping their word as paramount. That doesn't necessarily mean that there are no situations in which they'd accept that things might change, but those are generally extreme situations.

Camp 2 sees keeping their word as situational. Not in the sense of being dishonest, but they think the world is too unpredictable to validly expect people to stick to something if the situation changes too drastically.

Camp 3 avoids the issue by being very cautious about giving their word in the first place. Which means that, at the expense of being able to make promises, they very rarely put themselves in a situation where they're going back on previous commitments.

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 8:46:55 PM

leadership527

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quote:

Is it possible that there are quite a few identifying with camp 2, but may be camp 1 the way i perceive camp 1?

Well, for me at least, I'm solidly in camp 2 (I think although you're point is intriguing). Specifically, what I mean by that is sometimes I do lie. Sometimes they are not tiny little white lies. I am imperfect as a human and very rarely in my life, perhaps once a decade or so, that imperfection rises above the level of "surface noise"

I have never actually known anyone in camp 1. I've known a lot of very good, very honorable people whom I respect a great deal. I have known people who THINK they are in camp 1. They have all been deluding themselves. If you go back 20, 30, 40, 50 years.. theres' always something. I'm not saying that it's impossible someone is a camp 1 person... I just don't believe them based on my life experience and, in fact, assume that anyone who tells me they never lie is right at that moment lying to me.

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 9:57:09 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
Camp 1 see keeping their word as paramount. That doesn't necessarily mean that there are no situations in which they'd accept that things might change, but those are generally extreme situations.

****I believe myself to reside in firmly and decisively in camp 1, sometimes even to my own detriment. A recent conversation with my best friend would seem to confirm this: she told me that I'm the most consistent person she knows, sometimes maniacally so, lol!

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
"I want someone to agree to submit to me by whatever terms we've both lucidly agreed upon at the outset of the relationship, then honor that agreement assuming no material excursions or blatant violations of those terms on my part, in perpetuity*."
*: Any dramatic life-changing feelings that could arise should be discussed before any violation is acted out. It should also be understood that, barring mutual agreement otherwise, the importance of honoring the commitment is tantamount to anything else.

****I see this as a Camp 1 sort of conceptualization if I am understanding it properly. If I make a commitment, I made that commitment. Every commitment there-after filters in relation to that commitment as well as any number of other factors. Example: I married my husband. That was one of those 'until death do us part' commitments and I meant it (I still do not do well with puttig the terms ex- and husband together), though one can not force another party to maintain their commitments. Anyway, in the course of that marriage (Which was poly at points), I grew to love another in a spousal sense. Now, could I have run off with that person and lived happily ever after. Yeah. Might that have been the smarter decision? Oh, probably. But, you see, my commitment and responsibility to as well as my love for my husband came first. Doing the right thing isn't always easy and I don't think we always see the forest for the trees, as it were, but I think that the essence of what you're saying: if something changes, discuss before violating. That was our standing agreement with cheating: If you're going to do it, leave. If I were going to do it, I would have left. I'm not perfect but some things stray too far and, for those folks who believe honor is one of the most important traits that we may have, to discard that piece of self would be too much of a compromise.
Davan

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/8/2009 10:03:19 PM

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Quote: NihilusZero
Now, sure, relationships are meant specifically to thrive under mutual enjoyment and, ideally, both partners would try and figure things out if such things change. But I find that it's indicative of the "values" you speak of that a person's default mental reaction to such scenarios is that they expect themselves to honor the agreement yet if a mutually convenient exit-strategy is developed then it's great...as opposed to the defaulting to the freedom to head out the backdoor when inconvenience strikes.

****Sometimes, though, the greater part of valor and the greatest rewards are gleaned when one doesn't duck out the backdoor. In a committed relationship, I don't view there to be the option of a backdoor. Again, though, people in a relationship must be on the same page or that back door's going to get factored into the floorplan whether one likes it or not.
Davan

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RE: The shelf-life of honoring one's word - 6/11/2009 8:38:02 AM

Andalusite

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I'm a bit cynical about "forever" since my grandparents split up my senior year of high school, just before my birthday/graduation. It kind of shook my view about that, so I'm a little scared of making a promise of "forever" or "until death do us part."

In general, I'm in class 2 - I accept that things can come up, people can change, so if something does, renegotiate! I agree with SimplyMichael that I don't want to stay out of a sense of honour with someone I no longer love or am attracted to - I'd try my darndest to make it work, but not when the relationship is a rotten corpse of its former self!

In a non-relationship example of number 2, I had made plans with friend A for 7 PM one night. On the way there, friend B called and said that her car was in the shop, and she was out of milk/other staples. She was at home with two young umms, it was raining, and the grocery store was a mile or two away. So, I called A back, explained that B needed help, rescheduled. I took B and her umms to the grocery store and back, and did a major shopping expedition, rather than just swinging by to pick up some milk for her. We hung out for a few hours until after her husband got back from work, and we had dinner. I don't see how it would have been productive to keep my promise to A to show up, when circumstances had changed, and she was perfectly willing to meet another time.

With something like cheating, I expect my partner not to do that, and would be angry if he did. If he wanted to renegotiate a poly relationship, or some such, I'd be fine with it. I don't expect him to not change, but I expect him to at least notify me!

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