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avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 8:19:33 AM   
LadyEllen


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is there a doctor in the house? (of macro-economics)

our leaders tell us that the globalisation process is the way to economic progress for us, whilst protectionism is bad and must be resisted, because it will lead us to economic decline.

1st simple question - why?
2nd simple question - how?

E



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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 8:29:28 AM   
DomKen


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1) Primarily because it produces a much larger potential market for your goods and services. The truth is it produces a market where the cheapest goods and services, produced either through the efficiencies of scale available to giant corporations or by going where labor and related costs are lowest, are the ones that are produced.

2) In theory the poor nations involved in world trade will gain wealth due to investment and will develop thriving middle classes desiring imported goods. In reality the corporations involved in much global trade invest as little as possible in those nations and will pick up and move operations elsewhere rather than improve pay and benefits.

The only actual real benefit is that globalization stops wars. Countries with healthy trade relations are much less likely to fight over something.

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 8:52:28 AM   
LadyEllen


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an excellent post DK - concise and accurate (accurate to my view of it all that is)

E

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 9:03:36 AM   
Termyn8or


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"In theory ", exactly DK. The fact of the matter is that you can't have fair trade with two entities encompassing totally different standards of living. People bitch about US workers and that the Chinese are so much better and cheaper, but going home to a hut with a thatched roof is quite a bit different than having a $1,500 per month house payment. That is perhaps an exaggeration, but should serve to illustrate. I know that the modern Chinese drive cars and all that. However their earnings would not support the US lifestyle. The reason is that the cost of certain things must be lower, what, you may ask ?

Well if you make a dollar a day, OK fine. The people who built your house make a dollar a day, those who work for the utility companies make a dollar a day and so forth.

I am all for fair trade, but have never ever supported free trade, there is a big difference.

Without this disparity fair trade would be possible and all of the virtues extolled by the PTB would be true, but let's face it, they knew better. All they wanted was to make more money for their own little grubby hands, hands which should be cutoff IMO with a dull box cutter. THEY KNEW, and as they toured areas for possible offshore manufacturing sites they no doubt drooled ever more over the worst poverty they could find. They had not one iota of concern over enlarging our supposed overseas market.

Yes, good in theory, somewhat like driving with your feet. It can be done and leaves your hands free for other tasks, but that does not make it a good idea.

T

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 9:37:28 AM   
DarkSteven


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The theory is based on capitalist nations trading with each other.AFAIK no theory has developed about a centralized government country like China trading with a capitalist one.  The Chinese are doing various things and I wouldn't put it past them to suppress their people's standard of living so the government can build up wealth.

The thing that frightens me most is I cannot see where the US will be competitive in a couple of decades. We've lost the manufacturing base and are about to lose the computer/techie base.  We have a great entertainment industry but I can't see it being competitive twenty years down the road.  Tourism creates lots of low paying jobs...


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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 9:57:11 AM   
MasterG2kTR


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Term is quite right. There is a huge difference between free trade and fair trade. In fair trade it is the general population (workers and their families) that enjoys the benefits of products produced and sold. Thus in turn generate revenue to spread through out their economy. In free trade it is only the corporate giants that reap the benefits, and share with no one but the greedy scum at the top.

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/7/2009 8:18:05 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"In theory ", exactly DK. The fact of the matter is that you can't have fair trade with two entities encompassing totally different standards of living. People bitch about US workers and that the Chinese are so much better and cheaper, but going home to a hut with a thatched roof is quite a bit different than having a $1,500 per month house payment. That is perhaps an exaggeration, but should serve to illustrate. I know that the modern Chinese drive cars and all that. However their earnings would not support the US lifestyle. The reason is that the cost of certain things must be lower, what, you may ask ?

Well if you make a dollar a day, OK fine. The people who built your house make a dollar a day, those who work for the utility companies make a dollar a day and so forth.

I am all for fair trade, but have never ever supported free trade, there is a big difference.

Without this disparity fair trade would be possible and all of the virtues extolled by the PTB would be true, but let's face it, they knew better. All they wanted was to make more money for their own little grubby hands, hands which should be cutoff IMO with a dull box cutter. THEY KNEW, and as they toured areas for possible offshore manufacturing sites they no doubt drooled ever more over the worst poverty they could find. They had not one iota of concern over enlarging our supposed overseas market.

Yes, good in theory, somewhat like driving with your feet. It can be done and leaves your hands free for other tasks, but that does not make it a good idea.

T


T, what a wonderful well thought out explanation.
I really like the analogy of driving with your feet.
 
The fact that we sat back and allowed this crap to happen to us, without widespread protests, is like saying we don't care what the "man" does to us, hey whatever!
I guess I am a child of the 60's and 70's and I have a problem with "letting the man" just do anything to us.
We sat here, listened and watched while the corporations closed down plant after plant, business after business, and outsourced our country, and did basically nothing.
I am glad you explained the difference between Free Trade and Fair Trade.
 
Here is one of my terms: Nafta and Shafta has screwed us up the Assta.
Power to the People, if the people believe they have any power!
Peace


< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/7/2009 8:22:05 PM >


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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/8/2009 5:52:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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But Mia - any time anyone so much as whispers something along the lines of "power to the people", he/she is shot down in flames as anti-American, socialist, Marxist, communist or whatever - often by the very same people who most need such sentiments expressed openly to save their asses!

It will always be an utter mystery to me about the US population - that for all its assertions of liberty, freedom and opportunity, it so gladly yields them all so unthinkingly, when those very same values are used to deny them.

E

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/8/2009 11:49:51 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

an excellent post DK - concise and accurate (accurate to my view of it all that is)
E

Except for one problem...globalization like most things are only as global as the powerful (most free speech in the bank) allow it to be.

For example, the investor class can and does export ALL the jobs it possibly can looking for what ? Better quality...hardly. All businesses are in the business of reducing jobs but when needed, search for the MOST oppressed labor market they can find where there are no worker's rights and thus almost no pay at all. China and Viet Nam are the two most popular.

In addition to exporting jobs the investor class also continues to lobby (throw money...er free speech) at congress to raise quotas to import people more people into the US to take our jobs at an average of 1/2 what Americans are paid.

Then when it comes to certain products, they put up tariffs (lumber and steel, among others) to KEEP them out and raise the prices to protect their profits against...globalization.

DRUGS is another group of products where we are forced to pay much higher prices while it is a crime for anybody to bring cheaper drugs in from Canada (price controls) or overseas. from this we get of course...Chinese drugs that what...kill people. Well, hell...what's a few deaths when it comes to millions more in profit ?

Facts are...globalization and its alleged benefits is just more capitalist propaganda to establish the lowest possible cost of doing business while achieving the highest possible profits even to the point of free-trade agreements under Clinton-Bush that are negotiated out of public scrutiny and fast-tracked and voted up or down without debate.

Clearly a brazen sale of our constitutional rights concerning actually committing us, our country to a treaty.

Adam Smith however WAS a protectionist and you won't hear that. He didn't feel that England should be sold out. The American capitalist will sell your mother for a profit.



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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/8/2009 12:54:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

an excellent post DK - concise and accurate (accurate to my view of it all that is)
E

Except for one problem...globalization like most things are only as global as the powerful (most free speech in the bank) allow it to be.

For example, the investor class can and does export ALL the jobs it possibly can looking for what ? Better quality...hardly. All businesses are in the business of reducing jobs but when needed, search for the MOST oppressed labor market they can find where there are no worker's rights and thus almost no pay at all. China and Viet Nam are the two most popular.

In addition to exporting jobs the investor class also continues to lobby (throw money...er free speech) at congress to raise quotas to import people more people into the US to take our jobs at an average of 1/2 what Americans are paid.

Then when it comes to certain products, they put up tariffs (lumber and steel, among others) to KEEP them out and raise the prices to protect their profits against...globalization.

DRUGS is another group of products where we are forced to pay much higher prices while it is a crime for anybody to bring cheaper drugs in from Canada (price controls) or overseas. from this we get of course...Chinese drugs that what...kill people. Well, hell...what's a few deaths when it comes to millions more in profit ?

Facts are...globalization and its alleged benefits is just more capitalist propaganda to establish the lowest possible cost of doing business while achieving the highest possible profits even to the point of free-trade agreements under Clinton-Bush that are negotiated out of public scrutiny and fast-tracked and voted up or down without debate.

Clearly a brazen sale of our constitutional rights concerning actually committing us, our country to a treaty.

Adam Smith however WAS a protectionist and you won't hear that. He didn't feel that England should be sold out. The American capitalist will sell your mother for a profit.

Did you actually my post that Ellen was agreeing with?

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/8/2009 1:23:13 PM   
kdsub


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Hello LadyEllen

Hmmm…Say you have a country with a wealth of natural resource…plenty of well trained…well educated workers.

This work force, though productive beyond any force in the world, for years and years fought battles with industrialists for a fair wage and working conditions.

This country became the most productive and strongest in the world. Their standard of living across a vast population was amazing. Yes they made good money but could afford to buy expensive goods from industries employing fellow citizens… The wealth was spread like never before in human history.

Not only this country but most countries used this form of commerce…. Even the most primitive of societies used their strengths and skills in commerce and survived happily just fine.

Then a few greedy industrialists saw an opportunity to take advantage of lesser developed nations for cheap labor to bypass the spread the wealth ideology. Thus was born “ Globalization”… the false God of greed.

Rather than spread wealth throughout the world it centralizes wealth with a relatively few industrialists. The poor are never rewarded for their work and industrialization destroys their native commerce…they loose not only independence but also their way of life.

The US is the first to feel the results but they will not be the last. Notice how rather than less war with globalization we have more. This centralization of wealth pits groups of people one against the other in competition for jobs with steadily decreasing income.

Protectionism may not be the way but certainly in my opinion Globalization is not the answer either.

Butch


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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/8/2009 8:00:49 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

an excellent post DK - concise and accurate (accurate to my view of it all that is)
E

Except for one problem...globalization like most things are only as global as the powerful (most free speech in the bank) allow it to be.

For example, the investor class can and does export ALL the jobs it possibly can looking for what ? Better quality...hardly. All businesses are in the business of reducing jobs but when needed, search for the MOST oppressed labor market they can find where there are no worker's rights and thus almost no pay at all. China and Viet Nam are the two most popular.

In addition to exporting jobs the investor class also continues to lobby (throw money...er free speech) at congress to raise quotas to import people more people into the US to take our jobs at an average of 1/2 what Americans are paid.

Then when it comes to certain products, they put up tariffs (lumber and steel, among others) to KEEP them out and raise the prices to protect their profits against...globalization.

DRUGS is another group of products where we are forced to pay much higher prices while it is a crime for anybody to bring cheaper drugs in from Canada (price controls) or overseas. from this we get of course...Chinese drugs that what...kill people. Well, hell...what's a few deaths when it comes to millions more in profit ?

Facts are...globalization and its alleged benefits is just more capitalist propaganda to establish the lowest possible cost of doing business while achieving the highest possible profits even to the point of free-trade agreements under Clinton-Bush that are negotiated out of public scrutiny and fast-tracked and voted up or down without debate.

Clearly a brazen sale of our constitutional rights concerning actually committing us, our country to a treaty.

Adam Smith however WAS a protectionist and you won't hear that. He didn't feel that England should be sold out. The American capitalist will sell your mother for a profit.



 as usual by Mr.Rodgers.
Many people hate to admit that this is the truth.
It flies in the face of what most people want to believe, so it is easier to ignore it.
American's have been sold down the river, and the sad thing is many were just too blind/ignorant/or really just did not care.

Most people really did not care/or think much about it, UNTIL it effected their friends, family,
or THEM.

Denial is certainly a lot more than a river in Egypt.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/8/2009 8:15:56 PM >


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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/8/2009 11:51:03 PM   
pahunkboy


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...Allrighty.  In case you do not know.  The bilderburg meeting last week did not go well.    They are losing control.   And they know it.

Globalization is over.   Finished.   Tariffs are coming back- and according to Bob Chapman-  they are necessary.

IF we get Ron Pauls bill per the federal reserve and if we put in place tariffs... then America will remain.  If we don't- we become a 3rd world country.


The current sitution is a mess.   Despite the optimism,  up to 2/3 of the population on the planet may parish as a result of our depression.   

No one wants to hear that- as it wont be pretty.

On the flip side- it truly will be an exciting time to be alive.   :-)

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/9/2009 5:28:38 AM   
Mezrem


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


The current sitution is a mess.   Despite the optimism,  up to 2/3 of the population on the planet may parish as a result of our depression.   

No one wants to hear that- as it wont be pretty.

On the flip side- it truly will be an exciting time to be alive.   :-)



There is a thought filled with sunshine.. but this 2/3 of the world population number.. were is that from?

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/9/2009 8:49:20 AM   
Daddystouch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

is there a doctor in the house? (of macro-economics)

our leaders tell us that the globalisation process is the way to economic progress for us, whilst protectionism is bad and must be resisted, because it will lead us to economic decline.

1st simple question - why?
2nd simple question - how?

E


The main argument for protectionism is usually that it secures domestic job. Protectionism is a misleading name. I call it destructionism, because that is what it does. It destroys wealth and employment.

People choose, when given the choice, to buy some goods from abroad because they are better than domestically produced goods, cheaper than domestically produced goods, or a combination of the two. By forcing people to buy domestically produced goods over their free choice of internationally produced alternatives, you are forcing them to buy inferior quality and/or more expensive goods. It makes consumers worse off.

However, it also makes workers worse off in the long run. In essence, there is no difference between the effects of importing a good rather than producing it domestically, and making it with a machine cheaply and efficiently, or by hand expensively and wastefully. Machines save (domestic) labour, just like imports do. We do not smash our machines and burn our computers because they put people out of work, we embrace them because they save labour. If a machine/foreigner can make a good better and/or cheaper than a domestic worker, it makes no sense to force the domestic worker into doing the job. Rather, when machines and imports are introduced it frees workers from their inefficient, wasteful employment, and allows them to move to efficient employment. Not only is this more productively efficient, it results in higher wages and better working conditions for the domestic worker.

Here in Britain, for example, people used to work long shifts in shitty conditions in car factories and steel mills and coal mines. Now we import our cars, our steel and our coal, and work for insurance companies and marketing firms (bit of a massive simplification there but you get the point). Imports don't steal jobs, they create better ones - and make better goods available to us all for cheaper.

That's the domestic benefit. They also, as has been said, can help prevent conflict and bring nations and people closer together. More over, we aid employment and development abroad. Buying imports is not just good for domestic consumers and workers, but also good for foreign workers - making exports for us to import is the best thing they could be doing (or they wouldn't' be choosing to do it).  By banning their imports you put potentially millions of people in developing nations (or even developed nations) back a step - say, from working in a garment factory (which is a highly desirable and well paid job in many parts of the world) to subsistence farming or prostitution.

< Message edited by Daddystouch -- 6/9/2009 9:00:23 AM >


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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/9/2009 9:18:34 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


The current sitution is a mess.   Despite the optimism,  up to 2/3 of the population on the planet may parish as a result of our depression.   

No one wants to hear that- as it wont be pretty.

On the flip side- it truly will be an exciting time to be alive.   :-)



There is a thought filled with sunshine.. but this 2/3 of the world population number.. were is that from?



The impending war.    War is thought to end a depression.  When I say war- Hiroshima and Nagasaki will look like kids playing.

The Illuminittas goal is a global population of 500 million.   The Mayan tablets have this in stone.

WW2, WW1 had massive carnage.   It will be as much or more this time.

Even we arrogant Americans are not immune to the follies of history.   We wrongly embraced "empire" run by the banks - which frankly is why we broke from England.

I still do beleive that it will be a good time to be alive.   Because when you think about it- life is not about stuff/malls.   it is about your brothers and sisters.

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/9/2009 9:28:55 AM   
voidplay


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I agree with KDSUB.

Most countries produce enough food to feed all it people, most countries have enough resources of their own. They can not be called poor but access to resources and distribution of wealth and lack of coorporation structures. For example Gas/petrol in India costs a lot more than in Europe or US even though it is geographically closer to the middle east because it does not have the same bargaining power (read NATO ;-)). Two currencies of many countries are underrated or alternatively dollars and Euros are over rated, the elites of the world (us who are fortunate enough to use computers) can not afford our material lifestyle if not for the exploitation of cheaper material and human resources.

Globalisation is a good solution if you had one fair money system ie if you really rated money correctly but that is not going to happen in the near future.

But most of the loss of jobs are jobs that never really existed if we can replace all humans by machine (we already have - most jobs are fake) think of one daily product that you use that can not be produced by a machine. Then the things that we need is resources like oil, coal, Iron and 'Technology and organisation'. Money now does not make sense other than to act as a vote to choose good products over bad products you could ideally put all the people in the world on social security. Most countries will be valued by the resource that they control and that includes military control. This sounds like socialism and socialism doesn't always work but may be with use of computers corruption and cheating can be reduced and so it might work. if all the money is digital it might work if the world had more resources that the people can consume while still not giving up a modest lifestyle this system can thrive.

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/9/2009 9:52:52 AM   
voidplay


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Subsistence farming shouldn't be considered bad, but think that these people are animals who have been livung that way for 100s of years. Then you come with a strong military leader pay some kick backs, then you attach a false value to their land, and in the name of development (which actually never reach this segment) you take away their land for mining. This is what happend in most african and south american countries. The key word is 'attaching' a value to the land and resource that is arbitrary, if a bear is the 'king of the forest' ( or dictator) you give it a big barrell of honey year after year (aids and world bank loans and a secret swiss account) and instead bought the rights to exploit the whole forest. This is a classic case what happened (and is still happening) to most African and South American countries, the recent uprise in Ecuador(water wars) and Bolivia(oil companies).
This is a reason why egypt, Iran or cuba was never in good terms with the west. Or all the 'evil red' is comming was nothing about political and idealogical sentiments it was a matter of siding with what you thought of as a lesser evil. As I had posted before just try to think of a non-european country which after WW2 got developed and actually owns its own economy. I can think of only two South Korea and Israel and strictly speaking the American Interests here seem really high.

And when you mean loosing jobs to other countries, you mean countries like China, India, Brazil, Vietnam which refused to play second fiddle (or atleast din't want to go the African way ofcourse there was and is lots of corruption and exploitation) reached a compromise to take part in free trade(open markets) in return for free trade(inclusiveness as opposed to the isolation).

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/9/2009 7:10:18 PM   
DedicatedDom40


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I think we had a rather equitable wealth distribution pattern from the 1940s to 1970. Manufacturing wages were good, management was fair, not so self-centered, and exec compensation was not so closely tied to stock performance.  And the funny thing is, we didnt achieve that period of relative equality by selling Chevys like hotcakes in China or Africa under the umbrella of globalism. We did it here, and only with this economy.  So why do we need globalism now? Why is globalism our only course of action at this stage? Are we only doing this to feed the need for greed among the higherups, people who are no longer equitable?

In our industrialzed period back when we had 'big steel', 'big autos', etc, the average person only made 5% on investments.  That expectation is now in the range of 20% for today's armchair retiree with a 401k and 30% for Wall St insiders and insitutional investors, and we dont have the manufacturing base cranking out domestic product anymore to support that expectation. So how do we acheive that illogcal rate of return?

1- borrowing heavily against future generations, and

2- wholesale replacement of $30/hr workforces with $3/day workforces - courtesy of globalism.


Notice the history of the Dow,

http://www.nyse.tv/djia-chart-history.htm

and how it skyrockets abnormally shorty after the NAFTA craze, well after 100 years of relative steadiness through boom and bust.. We are literally gutting the job base of future generations in order to finance 5 times the rate of investment return for those in the market today.

This is what the con of 'globalism' and 'world economy' is all about. Its not about a population's welfare achived through work that is brought about by new world markets. Its about helping those who already have big money.

This is about sacrificing the top wage tier of our economy (leaving only low wage jobs) to build emerging markets elsewhere, so the business ownership class can rake in the cash from multiple theaters rather than one. Companies like Walmart, McDonalds, Starbucks, and KFC are now able to profit from making sales in all these additonal low wage economies they didnt have access to before, because these other places weren't built up sufficiently - until we sacrificed our economy and high wage jobs here to build things up over there. Anybody know how all these low wage service sector companies profiting in new markets by selling their low wage products in these other countries helps our educated high wage earners (80-100K) here?  I certainly dont see it.






< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 6/9/2009 7:49:31 PM >

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RE: avoiding protectionism - 6/10/2009 12:52:24 AM   
pahunkboy


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Ded,

Bravo on this post!   Cogent analysis of the mess.  :-)

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