Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: For those on the political left....new worries


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: For those on the political left....new worries Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 9:52:40 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
It's amazing the things the right wing will try. Hitler and the Nazi's despised real socialists and communists.

As a matter of fact do not forget the poem Martin Niemoller:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Fascism is a rejection of both capitalism and socialism/communism for a so called "third way" Mussolini called it the corporate state.

(in reply to numuncular)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 2:21:21 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
I missed this the first time I perused this topic.

So Mars, I bet you are very pissed with Bill Clinton then, since he was the one that signed the Presidential directive in 1995, allowing the CIA to conduct Extraordinary Rendition. Hell Clinton knew that it was a violation of international law, Lloyd Cutler informed him that is was, and it was not until Al Gore entered the discussion with them and said "'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass."


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Or "Extraordinary Rendition"



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 3:29:07 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I respectfully disagree, Marc. Hitler's plans were hinged on his deep belief in Socialism, and the evil you describe was and is the extreme left end of Socialism, which is complete state control of the individual.


What Hitler admired about the Communists was their power and the techniques they used to aquire/maintain that power.  The ideas he wanted the State to infuse into the people, however, were very different.  This is a common misunderstanding of Hitler.  You can also find people writing that Hitler admired the Catholic Church.  This is true.  He greatly admired the Catholic Church but what he admired about them was the power they had over so many people.  As for the Catholics themselves and their beliefs - he absolutely despised them. 


_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 3:47:28 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Even the symbol he chose to represent himself, was an ancient rune that means power.

The government that Hitler supported, was tyranny in any shape or form he could use.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 4:44:24 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Here's what Ray had to say about the Swastika:


quote:

As you may be able to guess from the Cyrillic writing accompanying it, it was a Soviet Swastika -- used by the Red Army in its early days. It was worn as a shoulder patch by some Soviet troops. The Swastika too was a socialist symbol long before Hitler became influential. Prewar socialists (including some American socialists) used it on the grounds that it has two arms representing two entwined letters "S" (for "Socialist"). So even Hitler's symbolism was Leftist.


{There is an interesting comment on the graphic above by a Russian speaker. He points out that the shoulder patch above was specifically designed for Kalmyk troops. My understanding that the Swastika was more widely used in the Red Army than among the Kalmyk troops alone but I have yet to find a graphic illustrating that. As Stalin would undoubtedly have done his best to erase all references to Soviet swastikas after the Nazi invasion, such a graphic may not be easily found.}


Hitler did however give the symbol his own twist when he said: "Als nationale Sozialisten sehen wir in unserer Flagge unser Programm. Im Rot sehen wir den sozialen Gedanken der Bewegung, im Weiss den nationalistischen, im Hakenkreuz die Mission des Kampfes fuer den Sieg des arischen Menschen und zugleich mit ihm auch den Sieg des Gedankens der schaffenden Arbeit" ("As National socialists we see our programme in our flag. In red we see the social thoughts of the movement, in white the nationalist thoughts, in the hooked-cross the mission of fighting for the victory of Aryan man and at the same time the victory of the concept of creative work").


In German, not only the word "Socialism" (Sozialismus) but also the word "Victory" (Sieg) begins with an "S". So he said that the two letters "S" in the hooked-cross (swastika) also stood for the victory of Aryan man and the victory of the idea that the "worker" was a creative force: Nationalism plus socialism again, in other words.


{Technical note: Translating Hitler into English often runs up against the fact that he uses lots of German words that have no exact English equivalent (I comment, for instance, on Volk and Reich here). I have translated "schaffen" above as "create" (as does Ralph Manheim in his widely-used translation of Mein Kampf -- p. 452) but it has the larger meaning of providing and accomplishing things in general. So Hitler was clearly using the word to stress the central importance of the working man. In English, "creative" is often used to refer to artistic activities. That is NOT the meaning of "schaffen"}


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 6:23:03 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
The symbol is much older than that. It is also one of the few symbols that can be found in ancient times, through out the world. Many times between cultures that had no exposure to one another. The most common Germanic, or Nordic meaning would be "Thunder".

Actually what Ray is probably talking about would be the SS symbol, which is a double Sig rune from the Futhark alphabet, which is kind of occultish. I digress though, as well as this topic seems to.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 6:41:00 PM   
Pyrmidon


Posts: 42
Joined: 7/23/2007
Status: offline
Mentioning of the double "S" insignia of the SS as occultish is very apt, for Himmler, as head of the SS and, of course, the Gestapo, was very much into occultism. At one point, he actually conceived of the SS an a militaristic religious order, with secret emblems and rituals.  If anything his thinking was somewhat along the lines of Druidism...

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 9:35:14 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

The um,... I hate to be so damn disagreeable all the time.. ahh, who am I kidding, I love it. But the opening sentence in the quote I posted very clearly stated that he was referring to the Swastika.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/10/2009 10:53:53 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The um,... I hate to be so damn disagreeable all the time.. ahh, who am I kidding, I love it. But the opening sentence in the quote I posted very clearly stated that he was referring to the Swastika.


Actually you're using as a source one guy's claims which are completely baseless. I know quite a bit about the symbols of socialists and have never seen the swastika used. Your source even lies about why the Kalmyk would use a swastika symbol. It had nothing to do with socialism but was actually about buddhism, their traditional religion, which had used the symbol for thousands of years. Placing letters in the crooks of the arms is obviously related to the buddhist tradition of placing a dot in the same location. Note the clockwise orientation of the symbol which is the reverse of the Nazi usage but is traditional for buddhists.

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/swastika.htm

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 1:33:45 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666




2. Don't forget that all the true socialist countries, like Canada and Denmark, are beacons of how a country should be run.




There are plenty of Canadians and Danes that dont agree with you.

(in reply to DreamGoddess666)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 6:17:51 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Well then I would not believe everything you read. Research it yourself. At best the swastika is a double e/i and not a double s.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The um,... I hate to be so damn disagreeable all the time.. ahh, who am I kidding, I love it. But the opening sentence in the quote I posted very clearly stated that he was referring to the Swastika.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 6:33:23 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Thank you for the helpful suggestion Orion - but obviously I did research it, and the author who I chose to cite went back to Hitler's own words. He also provided very credible links to many good sources in his bibliography.

"Theres even pitchers."

They didn't just haphazardly pick some old rune for no reason at all, regardless of how Caspar Milquetoast you feel that you need them to be politically. That's just now how it was, they had political leanings and they leaned very hard to the left.

But thanks again for the suggestion.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/11/2009 7:22:02 AM >


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 8:12:39 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Then I suggest you research the futhark runes, the swastika, and the meanings behind them. There is no double S in the swastika, the double SS that is being refered to is in the SS symbol. Wait maybe I can photocopy these books here, and paste them to the screen. Nah. Believe the single source if you wish, but it does not add up to the facts of the symbology used. I guess Hitler and the others were just uninformed and uneducated.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Thank you for the helpful suggestion Orion - but obviously I did research it, and the author who I chose to cite went back to Hitler's own words. He also provided very credible links to many good sources in his bibliography.

"Theres even pitchers."

They didn't just haphazardly pick some old rune for no reason at all, regardless of how Caspar Milquetoast you feel that you need them to be politically. That's just now how it was, they had political leanings and they leaned very hard to the left.

But thanks again for the suggestion.






_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 8:23:58 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Thank you for the helpful suggestion Orion - but obviously I did research it, and the author who I chose to cite went back to Hitler's own words. He also provided very credible links to many good sources in his bibliography.

"Theres even pitchers."

They didn't just haphazardly pick some old rune for no reason at all, regardless of how Caspar Milquetoast you feel that you need them to be politically. That's just now how it was, they had political leanings and they leaned very hard to the left.

Once again no.

The Nazi use of the swastika was part of their aryan racial nonsense. They believed that the Germans were of pure aryan descent. The historical aryans were a vedic people originating on the Indian subcontinent where the swastika symbol was common.

This connection between German nationalism, the myth of aryan descent and the use of the swastika predates the Nazi's and is found in the work of ealier German nationalists including Burnouf who based his claims on findings made in Troy by Heinrich Schliemann. The pre nazi Thule Society also used the symbol and their was nothing socialist at all about a occult and volkisch group. Hitler even acknowledges Dr. Krohn, a member of the Thule who allowed Hitler access to his library in 1920, as having created a flag similiar to the nazi party flag before Hitler created the nazi flag.

Another early use of the swastika as a "german aryan" symbol was by the Order of the New Templars around 1905.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 8:34:27 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
The double s is just an abreviation of the militant arm of the political party that got Hitler into power; Schutzstaffeln der NSDAP (protective squadrons of the National Socialist German Workers' Party).  It later was shortened to just Schutzstaffeln, and even later to just S.S. or SS.

Indeed Himmler and Hitler were both aware of the symbolism of the double lightning bolts used on the uniforms and flags.  It was part of the image put forth and also part of the control mechanism.  By envoking runes and other mysticism into the narrative they were presenting, it allowed them to add or ignore that which they chose and the general public would know no better.  It also allowed them to claim a communion with an ultimate reality and thereby proclaim they were a part of a divine destiny.

Ah, but what do I know...

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 8:34:32 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
Wikipedia has a good - well cited - article on the Swastika.



_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 10:48:14 AM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

2. Don't forget that all the true socialist countries, like Canada and Denmark, are beacons of how a country should be run.


There are plenty of Canadians and Danes that dont agree with you.

Oddly enough, these "plenty" of people you cite have not mobilized to change their current form of government.


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 1:58:14 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
General reply:

The biggest load of bollocks you'll ever hear in your life is this: Hitler was neither left or right wing or Hitler was a socialist.

The philosophical spokesman for the Nazi Party was Martin Heidegger - the ultra conservative Bavarian farmer.

The Munich Putsch was undertaken by right-wingers - remnants of the army - militarists - monarchists - and the Nazis.

Hitler's policies were underpinned by notions of blood - a right wing sentiment.

You could go on for days with the evidence pointing to Hitler being right wing - usually there's two sides to a story but not this time.

They included 'socialist' in their name as they wanted to appear to be all things to all people.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 2:58:47 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
Just a quick response...

From my understanding "right wing" has a different connotation over on the other side of the pond... it is usually used to describe the extremists and whackos.  I will concede that such a meaning is beginning to take hold over here, however the traditional meaning over here was more towards "less government, lower taxes, family, self responsibility, etc...".

I think the comparisons of left to left or right to right on both sides of the pond may need a bit of clarification as to what the center is (if you know what I mean).  Then again 3 lefts do make a right.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: For those on the political left....new worries - 6/11/2009 3:20:15 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
Thats a fair point Thadius, just as left wing and socialist seem to have different meaning over there. I doubt anyone in Europe would regard Hitler as left wing, as was stated, or a socialist. Racist, facist ect would all figure higher on the list.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 140
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: For those on the political left....new worries Page: <<   < prev  4 5 6 [7] 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109