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Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/12/2009 10:36:59 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		I would be a lair if I said I don't or have never resorted using verbal abuse or humilation at times as means to control. I can actually verbally lash into somebody without any name calling. Name calling if I'm extremely pissed off or hurt.

There are only certain situations that I find myself resorting to engaging in this. I've been doing a lot of reading about "Cycles of Abuse" and Verbal Abuse/Humilation (the real deal).

In many regards, people in general exhibit or engage in some level of verbal punishment or abuse with one another. Especially during a fight or disagreement. Hell, some people if upset make keep it simple with making one sarcastic remark.

This applies to both sides of the D/s coin as well. Where somebody is hurt by another, or not liking something go on or insists upon either doing or not doing something. Conflicts do and can occur in D/s relationships. It's not a perfect world.

Anyways, I'm not the type to want to seperate a sub/slave away from all their family and friends. However, if they have a questionable friendship with somebody I don't like. A friendship with somebody I know or feel has a questionable character, I will put my foot down about it. If there is a lot of opposition to what I wish to be done, and it's not being done. Yeah, time to pull out verbal humilation and well do things that fall into the category of verbal abuse. Yes, it's a matter of CONTOL as well.

So, I am sitting here a little confused at the limits and levels of things. Because I'm not into completely shutting somebody off from family and friends and taking things to Abusive extremes as I have been reading about. None the less, I can not be a very nice when it comes down to a sub/slave not doing as I say. Espcially when I have explained my logic, thoughts, feelings and reasoning behind my request.

But wait, I'm not so simple. There are times when I told a sub/slave what I wanted to see done. Not made a big deal out of it. Why? Because at times it's best to let somebody do as they please and have it blow up in their face just as I saw it was coming. Only to hear, how they should have listened to me and blah blah blah....

None the less, I hope to start this thread to hear other peoples thoughts and experiences with this. If verbal or Mental S&M (the real deal) is a dynamic on some level of your relationship.

I find I'm a little bit blended in how deal with things. I'm not always vebally abusive or into humilating somebody left and right. Lord, that would be taxing mentally for me to be like that with somebody all the time. In fact when I engage in it, it does become mentally taxing to a certain degree.

Now, I have had submissives lash out at me being verbally abusive, and I've said keep it up and you'll not want to go there anymore with me. Where they kept it up and WaLa.. I dished it out at them 10 times worse then what they were doing to me. Basically to put them back into place. In short, I give warning that they should not want to pick a fight with me like this cause I'm going to chew them up and eat them for breakfast if they keep it up.

I had somebody lie about me, and it did not go over very well with me. I wanted them to turn around tell the truth to the person they lied to about me. Needless to say, emotionally what they had done did hurt and bother me greatly. I wanted them to fix their mistake, fix their lie. They were not doing as I asked, and I felt that it undermined the D/s dynamic between us. Anyways, so yeah.. I have been making it a point to be a real bastard about it. After a couple of monthes of the truth still not being told, I broke down and resorted to name calling. i.e. "Lieing Bitch" and etc... Yes, I wanted to make them feel like worthless crap and shit about what they did. To verbally beat them down to the point of getting them to do what I wanted. For them to tell the Truth. Yes, and it was about Control as well.

I been reading things online about "Cycles of Abuse" and gee some of it really applies to some of my actions, however there are limits to how far it goes with me.

It has made me stop and think about Punishment and etc.. In so many ways those things can be looked at or viewed as abuse...

So back to issue of consent and agreement to what the terms of a D/s or BDSM should be between two people. What works well between two people might not work for another couple. What works and is accepted in one D/s relationship, might not be so acceptable in another D/s relationship.

In last long term relationship, she had wanted me to use Forced Sex in the middle of a fight to resolved the issue and show her who's ass was boss. I refused to go there with her. I had started a thread one time on here about that subject and it sort of suprised me the number of submissives who were into it. So I became a little more open minded about it.

Now, here I'm with a sort of opposite issue I'm debating about. The use of Verbal Humilation or AKA abuse as a means of punishment and control...

This type of stuff makes me wonder, GOOD GOD what do Women really expect, want and need from a DOM. :-) Yeah, yeah, yeah, i know it's not the same for everybody.

BTW, I have and do admit at times when I'm Verbally lashing into somebody or humilating them, that it's a matter of getting them to do what I want, that it's a matter of Control. Mind you, verbally humilation slash verbal abuse is not the only trick I have in my book for control.

I'm a little besides myself, because I not want to coddle somebody for their bad behaviors, disobedience, or when they do something that is morally or ethically wrong.

People when they join the Military go through a lot of verbal humilation and abuse in boot camp, a means of breaking somebody down while building them up with skills and such.

Anyways, I thought I'd make a post because I'm sitting here exploring or rethinking about things a little more.

Mind you, I also am very loving and supportive. In fact, I have had great levels and compassion for some offenses that many other Doms would have kicked somebody to a curb in 2.5 seconds flat.

I hope this post is not confusing for anybody to read. Perhaps other people may or may not relate to it.
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/12/2009 10:39:56 PM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
Status: offline 		Shut up Whore!


























sorry, couldn't resist

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/12/2009 10:48:00 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown
Shut up Whore!

sorry, couldn't resist

I know you could not resist that one. LOL.. I'll talk like that during hot and heavy play. But not like that outisde of play. I imagine some people have that as part of their day to day dynamic though.

(in reply to PyrotheClown)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/12/2009 10:58:05 PM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
Status: offline 		well, it is part of my daily dynamic while driving

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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/12/2009 11:05:48 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown
well, it is part of my daily dynamic while driving

LOL... lord, I love calling stupid idiot drivers all kinds of names when I'm out driving. I tend to be rather sarcastic and sadistic too.

(in reply to PyrotheClown)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/12/2009 11:35:36 PM   
onlyfreelycaged


Posts: 254
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		( this only applies to a Dom who I've chosen to submit to.)
I just don't put up with verbal abuse, period. I don't like yelling(unless I happen to be in the other room, or outside), screaming, name calling (outside of play). The words, they are too easy to believe. Even in play, my partner needs to know when not to. If I've had a long day, or am not felling very self-assured, it's the wrong time to be doing it. it would leave me believing that I'm not enjoyed or treasured.

Physical stuff on the other hand, can refocus me. It puts me back in the mind set that keeps me obeying orders. If I don't like it, and if it's not for my enjoyment, then I'm even more refocused. Physical stuff can be sex, encludeing force play, various types of impact play, being slapped, a good grab of the arm and being pulled into the bedroom, or even just required to kneel at Masters feet, the list goes on and on..

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 12:51:50 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onlyfreelycaged

( this only applies to a Dom who I've chosen to submit to.)
I just don't put up with verbal abuse, period. I don't like yelling(unless I happen to be in the other room, or outside), screaming, name calling (outside of play). The words, they are too easy to believe. Even in play, my partner needs to know when not to. If I've had a long day, or am not felling very self-assured, it's the wrong time to be doing it. it would leave me believing that I'm not enjoyed or treasured.

Physical stuff on the other hand, can refocus me. It puts me back in the mind set that keeps me obeying orders. If I don't like it, and if it's not for my enjoyment, then I'm even more refocused. Physical stuff can be sex, encludeing force play, various types of impact play, being slapped, a good grab of the arm and being pulled into the bedroom, or even just required to kneel at Masters feet, the list goes on and on..

Thank you for your post. :-) I don't like yelling per se, but my voice is mean sounding and I find that I'm rather sarcastic with words along with explaining my reasoning combined. The name calling stuff is rather extreme for me when I do do it. I do know that in my 4 1/2 on/off relationship I had had my buttons intentionally pushed a lot and verbally I became more... shall I say abusive or resorting to humiliation. Some really bad cycles of things I got caught up or used to doing, which were effective at getting control. However, I was steps away from the physical and did not want to go there. It really dismayed me when she started expressing the Desire for me to Take her down to her knees and physically force myself upon her to end a fight. Sigh... I'm trying to sort a few things out, at the moment.

As you expressed if you are not feeling very self-assured, it's the wrong time to be doing it. Amazing how one girl can and does respond completely different to this. In one case, it actually was a good thing and motivated them... In another case, it literally makes them feel worthless and like they not good enough to be in a relationship. My Ex of 4 1/2 years would take it like being shot by a nurf ball gun. However, not everybodys takes it a nurf ball gun shot. If anything it feels like an aweful shot gun blast.

The only thing that scares me, is that some issues I was trying to get to the bottom of the matter or truth about, me blasting them verbally and mentally like this is what it took for them to open up and come clean with me, or talk to me about what is/was really going on. This sort of reinforces my use of being verbally aggressive or whatever label you want to call it. Be it verbal abuse, verbal humilation or verbal aggression.

Scratching my head, taking deep breathes and sort of letting out exasperated sighs.

Thanks again for the reply, I'm trying to explore this at some length in thought. I know I'm not a terrible person, but I'm seeing as aspect to something I'm not very crazy about. I'm debating about making some adjustments and changes in things.

(in reply to onlyfreelycaged)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 1:52:37 AM   
KateyCaine


Posts: 274
Joined: 5/7/2009
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There is a distinction between SM and the sort of verbal abuse that crosses the line.Your instincts should be able to tell you if something feels icky and bordering on non-BDSM. Anything that makes you feel worthless, unlovable or hate yourself, is NOT okay and is starting to cross over into something destructive.

Being called a slut, whore, cunt, slave, cumwhore, fuckhole, etc...that is all good from my perspective, and i know in my heart that He would only ever say these as an expression of the dynamic of our D/s relationship.

Racal abuse, picking holes in someone's appearance, size, body type, nipple size, etc is a different kettleof fish altogether, and a person knows when something's amiss.

k.


_____________________________

Proud to be owned and cherished by Master Charles (Gauge)

i wear His collar on my heart; and wherever i am, i know He is with me.

His love and my devotion and service to Him are stronger than leather or steel.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 1:58:08 AM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

In last long term relationship, she had wanted me to use Forced Sex in the middle of a fight to resolved the issue and show her who's ass was boss. I refused to go there with her. I had started a thread one time on here about that subject and it sort of suprised me the number of submissives who were into it. So I became a little more open minded about it.


(While I intend to respond to the post in its entirety, this segment was particularly touching for me.)

Addressing the quoted section: I've not yet found a crime which makes me as angry as rape. It makes my blood boil... Thinking about it for too long leaves me seeing red. Fury, really, is the most articulated response. It's a huge fantasy among the women (and maybe men) of the Western world. It would be a favor to the bottom if I did it, as I do not see myself gaining pleasure. In short, I understand.

"Abuse" has two popular definitions. One deals with what "society at large" feels is inappropriate aggression. The second is what an individual deems inappropriate aggression. While much harder to quantify, the latter definition accounts for consensual acts others may object to, if visited upon them. I've done things to my pet which an outsider would have to call abuse. I've spat on her, slapped her.. Actually let's not get into that. =)

In terms of verbal humiliation/degradation, they are very valuable tools. I consider words more potent than actions. Once I've lifted the scales of a submissive (meaning gained access to their deeper persona) I can illicit whatever response I please.

I consider verbal humiliation a tool for freedom, not for punishment. Through "assault", the bottom is granted access to a place where there is no judgment. They are allowed to speak their mind, encouraged (forced/commanded/asked) to share their most vile fantasies. So that both may share in how twisted the little toy is. I've seen, on rare occasion, a beautifully broken bottom spilling their soul. It's a real thrill for everyone involved. Just imagine screaming at the top of your lungs, your deepest fantasy... The sickest one... The most taboo one. And someone laughing at you and saying "Of course you want that, that's why we keep you around."

So accepting. So free. So intense. *licks my lips*

/

Some people hate being talked down to, and their interests are either in nice words or just actions. For those people, humiliation is NOT the key to freedom. It'd abuse (by either definition). They should not be exposed to it.

In my eyes, there are two outcomes: 1) Humiliation is used as a tool to extract the shadows. 2) Humiliation is not used.

EVERYONE, from prissy brats to TPE slaves, can fathom what they consider abusive, or unacceptable negative behavior. Humiliation may or may not be included.

As for punishment, I chose one of three major methods: 1) A playful but effective stern look and a swat on the nose with a newspaper. 2) A beating of some sort... Usually spanking, though spanking is sometimes just because I like to hear girls squeal. or 3) Very simple, calm, measured psychological punishments. These tend to be overly harsh for most infractions, and I hesitate heavily to exercise them. Imagine corner time at a play party... Poor girl...

If my s-type is being bratty, unresponsive (but not in a troubled way), mouthy... I don't go to great lengths to change them. I'd cuff them, put a plug in their mouth, and say "Do as you please, Blow Up Doll. I'll wake you if I should need one of your holes."

I don't negotiate with terrorists. =P

What's my takeaway on the subject?
1) Verbal treatments are tools for good, not evil.
2) Punishment is very serious stuff, and avoided whenever possible.
3) Without immense trust and multiple safeguards, no rape play with HK.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 2:01:27 AM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KateyCaine

Racial abuse, picking holes in someone's appearance, size, body type, nipple size, etc is a different kettle of fish altogether, and a person knows when something's amiss.

k.



I agree completely. As someone who is very fond of dirty names and words, one (particularly a top) must be extremely aware of which areas can/should be addressed. The line between a dripping slave and an offended, self conscious, unhappy slave is very thin and jagged.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to KateyCaine)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 4:12:54 AM   
Goddess2002


Posts: 226
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline 		I'm sure there is someone, somewhere who gets off on being humiliated 24/7...I find in my own dynamic it works best when kept to the scene...then a thorough verbal assualt may be in order

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 4:39:59 AM   
Rayne58


Posts: 746
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		*fast reply*
Humiliation and any form of verbal abuse is not done in our dynamic.  I am a survivor of an emotionally abusive marriage of over 20 years.  Sir's former wife was also cruel in that way (this was before He became a Dom). 
During play He will call me a slut, but it is said in an affectionate way (as in "My slut") and I'm not upset by this, in fact it's a turn on.  But if He were to call me a slut during an argument for instance, I would be very upset and hurt.  Humiliation is limited to gentle teasing to elicit a blush or two, and He would never humiliate me in public.


_____________________________

Collared sub and married to Nevershyau

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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 5:02:10 AM   
KateyCaine


Posts: 274
Joined: 5/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

quote:

ORIGINAL: KateyCaine

Racial abuse, picking holes in someone's appearance, size, body type, nipple size, etc is a different kettle of fish altogether, and a person knows when something's amiss.

k.



I agree completely. As someone who is very fond of dirty names and words, one (particularly a top) must be extremely aware of which areas can/should be addressed. The line between a dripping slave and an offended, self conscious, unhappy slave is very thin and jagged.



Thank You :) i love the way in which You phrased the last line - You summed it up perfectly :)
k.


_____________________________

Proud to be owned and cherished by Master Charles (Gauge)

i wear His collar on my heart; and wherever i am, i know He is with me.

His love and my devotion and service to Him are stronger than leather or steel.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 6:02:12 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		Ummmmm.. I have not been tossing around a lot of mindless name calling, again I don't often resort to name calling unless I'm really pissed off.

Seems like everybody connects verbal stuff with name calling...

I tend to simply go off with a rant about how they are keeping their own word, or doing as they promised they would do or whatever else.. without name calling involved. I will rub their noses in what they are doing wrong. I hope that makes sense to somebody out there. I tend to not resort to name calling. If and when I do call somebody a name, it's very limited. I have been known to apologize for having called somebody a name in the middle of my ass chewing rant.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 6:20:23 AM   
Christinestill


Posts: 1199
Joined: 12/4/2008
Status: offline 		OP, the only thing that is confusing me is that it seems (and it could just be me), that you equate verbal abuse with humiliation.  humiliation could be something as simple as pointing to a dog dish on the floor and waiting for the sub/slave to follow the non verbal demand.  (whew, is it getting hot in here?).   humiliation doesn't have to be abusive to be effective, but i agree with several other posters who say that it does tread a very fine line.

verbal abuse to me is just that, it's abuse.  to me, if that is the only way a person knows to discipline or effectively communicate then there is a problem   whether some might like this in their dynamic or not is up to them, but for me it wouldn't work outside of the occasional, very intense scene and then it still might be too often.  lashing out either verbally or physically shows a lack of control in my eyes and it's hard for me to maintain any respect for a person who does this very often.

< Message edited by Christinestill -- 6/13/2009 6:22:00 AM >

_____________________________

"Ya can't be scared if you're laughing!" -lushy

Learning to color outside the the lines a little more each day.

yes i'm pro-gun, i'm not about to sit around with a fucking rolling pin and hope for the best.


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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 7:19:59 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Christinestill
OP, the only thing that is confusing me is that it seems (and it could just be me), that you equate verbal abuse with humiliation.  humiliation could be something as simple as pointing to a dog dish on the floor and waiting for the sub/slave to follow the non verbal demand.  (whew, is it getting hot in here?).   humiliation doesn't have to be abusive to be effective, but i agree with several other posters who say that it does tread a very fine line.

verbal abuse to me is just that, it's abuse.  to me, if that is the only way a person knows to discipline or effectively communicate then there is a problem   whether some might like this in their dynamic or not is up to them, but for me it wouldn't work outside of the occasional, very intense scene and then it still might be too often.  lashing out either verbally or physically shows a lack of control in my eyes and it's hard for me to maintain any respect for a person who does this very often.


Christine, thank you for you post. Some of the things you expressed are on my mind.
I myself admit and see this is a fine line.

(in reply to Christinestill)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 7:22:27 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
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From: Chicago
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OP, the only thing that is confusing me is that it seems (and it could just be me), that you equate verbal abuse with humiliation.  humiliation could be something as simple as pointing to a dog dish on the floor and waiting for the sub/slave to follow the non verbal demand.

I agree.

Words can be powerful for sure, but in the case of humiliation you usually end up sounding like a marine sargent demeaning a raw recruit which may be fun for some people but I think that it is a pretty simplified variation on humiliation.

For me it is about forcing the submissive to experience a different mindset and you don't do that by telling them what they are but rather by placing them in a situation where there is a shift in reality and pretensions and guilt are stripped away. You don't tell her to bark like a dog,  rather you make her feel like a dog so when she crawls across the floor to you wet, excited, embarrassed and confused at her own emotions, there is no need for words at all, just let it be.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 9:46:12 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

Now, I have had submissives lash out at me being verbally abusive, and I've said keep it up and you'll not want to go there anymore with me. Where they kept it up and WaLa.. I dished it out at them 10 times worse then what they were doing to me. Basically to put them back into place. In short, I give warning that they should not want to pick a fight with me like this cause I'm going to chew them up and eat them for breakfast if they keep it up.


As a former emotionally abusive man, what you AND that partner were doing was abusive.  I don't want to argue the degree because on some level it doesn't matter.

What I CAN tell you is that it is destructive but that isn't really the fucked up and sad part.  What is sad is that not learning to go past that crap denies you a level of happiness that you cannot even understand exists till you let all that crap go.

Imagine instead of that scenario if you had done this...

quote:

Now, I have had submissives lash out at me being verbally abusive, and I have let them vent, I have been a rock for them and when they are done, I have said "I love you, lets talk".  Sat them down after genuinely and openly listened to them, make them feel heard and work through the issue with them.  Teaching them that lashing out is hurtful but also doesn't get them what they want, talking openly and honest is the way to get what you want and need.


I lived that first relationship you spoke of, one of the true loves of my life.  We stormed against each other in between loving each other and tore our hearts out over and over again.  Ugly, brutal, and pointless.

Learning to set that aside, learning to deal with the roots of MY anger has allowed me to ask for needs to be met that I would have slowly gotten pissed were not being met because "if she loved me she would KNOW I want this or that" and when that anger became too much to keep inside me it would boil out and burn what we had built to the ground over and over again.  Eventually we ran out of love to build with and we have never spoken to each other again.

Find what drives that anger in you, learn to see someone's elses anger, not as an attack but as the hurt person inside them lashing out at you.  Sidestep the attack and help that hurt person heal and you may find joy where you once found pain.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 6/13/2009 9:52:45 AM >

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 10:27:44 AM   
kuriouswitch


Posts: 325
Joined: 6/17/2008
Status: offline 		the only time I'm able to handle Master calling me names is during a session, at any other time even if it was punishment it wouldn't work out with the results he wanted. I tend to worry too much about my worth as a slave anyway so if he were to use verbal humiliation as a punishment it would just reinforce those bad thoughts that I have sometimes. I've been subjected to verbal abuse by my parents in the past so it's a thin line and not something Master would do even if he was angry.


(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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RE: Verbal Abuse-Humilation limits and levels - 6/13/2009 10:42:42 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I dunno.  I'm pretty uncomfortable with the sort of behaviors you've described in your op.  As you suspect, they do sound like you're involved in a cycle of abuse, one that you recreate with different partners.  I don't believe that its relevant that you're partners may be consenting to the treatment you're describing.  Maybe they want it; maybe you want it.  Maybe its what you and your partners crave.  But, all that doesn't mean its a good way to live.

I enjoy humiliation and namecalling in the context of play and would probably go further with it than Sir has taken it.  But, I do not tolerate that kind of treatment outside of play.  If Sir has gotten upset with me over something, I do expect him to calm down and discuss it with me directly like a reasonable, mature, adult.  If I am upset with Sir, I try not to lash out but calm down and discuss it with him, even if it takes a while for me to be in a reasonable mindspace.  Only one time has Sir called me a name in anger, and I really don't think he'll do it again--we did discuss the problem with that-- namely that its not helpful and can only be destructive.  If he doesn't like my behavior, its best to tell me what he'd like me to do differently rather than call me names.  In my mind, it is that simple. 

It sounds to me, and I'm basing this on your original post, like you're getting yourself involved with partners who aren't exactly healthy and invite abusive interactions.  A sub pledges her obedience, then habitually disobeys which pisses you off.  So, you retaliate.  Maybe things get better for a while but then they deteriorate, so the cycle starts again.  As Simply Michael said, this is no way to live.

Neither Sir nor I have especially stellar pasts when it comes to relationships.  But we're both committed to doin it differently this time.  Like, yesterday, we woke up and our whole garden was under water from a serious  previous night's rain.  After a couple of hours of bailing and trench digging, we got most the water out.  When we were almost done, Sir looked at me and said, "If it had been my ex, we'd have fought continuously throughout this whole thing" and I wondered aloud, "Whats to fight about?"  We agreed it was nothing worth fighting over.  Thinking about it, if it was my ex, I'd have been bailing water and digging the drainage trench by myself.

In any case, I'm urging you to really think hard about your relationship patterns.  Its not true as you state in your original post that people, in general, engage in some level of abuse or punishment with each other.  Maybe the people you know or grew up with interact this way, but its not a necessary part of being in an intimate relationship with someone.  As long as you continue to think that, you're going to keep engaging in the same behavior.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
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