RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens

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MissSepphora1 -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 9:16:17 PM)
Why not grow the produce in Mexico and import it here? That might make the economy in Mexico a little better, and cause Mexicans to want to stay in their own country. What's the difference? Farmers aren't making money anyway.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 9:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic It's a tax thing. You could Google it, if you aren't clear. [8\|] So then, the primary question determining whether someone is "supposed" to be here or not, is a financial one? It seems like it should be pretty easy to follow the money trails and see who costs what, then.

cadenas -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 9:35:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Till you actually have to pay that 5.00....all produce goes up...all things that are made using produce go up....not a pretty picture Joe....and it doesn't sound like you have thought it all the way through.Easy to make illegals the scapegoats....not so easy to find a workable solution.Certainly nothing you nor the Minutemen have suggested would qualify as workable...or well thought out. I have thought it through mike. Illegals cost California $11 billion a year for prisons, housing, health, and education. Thats half of the state budget shortfall. Thanks to NAFTA, buying a tomato in an American supermarket is no guarantee that it was made in America. Alot of our food is imported anyway. But just like NAFTA freed up the free market to decide where tomatoes can be raised most efficiently, it would do the same to make sure that they never actually cost $5. I am not making illegals the scapegoats. The problem is the politicians who do not have the balls to seal the border. The Minutemen are just a group of people who are fed up with inaction by the government. Think of them what you wish. I think you may be working with wrong numbers. In reality, actually illegal immigrants benefit the California economy. They buy bread from California bakeries, and those who are more successful buy American cars (even though we deny them their driver's licenses). They pay income taxes (contrary to popular belief) but don't claim a tax refund. They pay sales taxes. They are generally young and healthy, which means that their health care needs are minimal (I looked up the numbers - something around 0.1% of the ER cost goes to illegal immigrants). They are generally hard-working, and far less likely to get involved with crime (the criminal gang members are a completely separate group. Targeting tomato pickers is not going to stop the drug lords!) They pay their rent and keep apartments occupied. If you want to see the effect on housing, just look at Escondido, CA. A city ordinance prohibits renting to illegal immigrants; as a result, the housing market there is collapsing and landlords are going bankrupt. That's not good for the economy! That said, securing the border in the 1990s has actually made one huge difference: it dramatically increased illegal immigration. It used to be that illegal harvesters came to the US for a few weeks during harvest season. When we secured the border, these back-and-forth trips became too difficult, so instead they only crossed once and then brought their families. The law of unintended consequences. And since they are going to stay, we darn well better educate the children, or 20 years from now we'll end up with slums worse than Harlem in the 1980s all over the country. Education SAVES us money.

cadenas -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 9:48:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 Why not grow the produce in Mexico and import it here? That might make the economy in Mexico a little better, and cause Mexicans to want to stay in their own country. What's the difference? Farmers aren't making money anyway. Actually, I agree with you. We are doing far too much farming in the USA; we should be importing all our food. Otherwise, countries such as Mexico (and the poorer countries elsewhere) have nothing to sell us, and thus can't buy our American goods - Boeing airplanes, Ford cars, Microsoft computers. But realistically there are limits to that. There is tremendous demand for locally-grown food. Just go to any farmer's market. Shipping is another concern; with the price of oil rising, shipping over long distances becomes expensive - especially items that spoil quickly. Some food items don't grow in the Mexican climate. Overall, I agree that we should import food as much as is feasible. That doesn't make the issue go away. It's not just the $5 tomato. It's also the gardener that trims the trees and mows the lawns. Painters. Roofers. Chefs. It's sad, but the only reason we have the standard of living we have been used to for the last 50 years is that we had people to exploit. Not much different from the slave economy of the 1850s, actually. If we do get rid of them, our standard of living will return to more "normal" levels. Which means things such as $10 hamburgers at McDonalds, $30 per person for a dinner at Denny's, and so on. I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing. I'd rather have that lower standard of living than know that it's built on slave or underpaid labor.

TheHeretic -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:16:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u It's a tax thing is one way to look at it......but of course one must ignore the multitudes working under false SSN's who will never take a dime out of that system.That knife cuts both ways Rich. Mike, I'm coming to you from southern CA, where LA County alone is spending $40 million a month in welfare payments to illegal immigrants.

TheHeretic -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:19:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic It's a tax thing. You could Google it, if you aren't clear. [8\|] So then, the primary question determining whether someone is "supposed" to be here or not, is a financial one? It seems like it should be pretty easy to follow the money trails and see who costs what, then. Don't put words in my mouth, Ialda. The question I answered is not the one you are presenting here.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:23:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u It's a tax thing is one way to look at it......but of course one must ignore the multitudes working under false SSN's who will never take a dime out of that system.That knife cuts both ways Rich. Mike, I'm coming to you from southern CA, where LA County alone is spending $40 million a month in welfare payments to illegal immigrants. Forgive my lack of understanding... but if they aren't legal immigrants, how do they get welfare in the first place? You have to apply for financial assistance, and when applying, you have to show documentation, which gets cross-checked. So how is it that $40 million a month worth of your welfare system goes to illegals? Especially considering that the entire budget for welfare for the state of California was under $20 million for the entire year, how is it that 240% of that budget got spent each month on just illegals?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:24:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic It's a tax thing. You could Google it, if you aren't clear. [8\|] So then, the primary question determining whether someone is "supposed" to be here or not, is a financial one? It seems like it should be pretty easy to follow the money trails and see who costs what, then. Don't put words in my mouth, Ialda. The question I answered is not the one you are presenting here. Then I'm obviously not being clear enough with my question, for which I apologize. I'll try harder.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:29:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Mike, I'm coming to you from southern CA, where LA County alone is spending $40 million a month in welfare payments to illegal immigrants. Forgive my lack of understanding... but if they aren't legal immigrants, how do they get welfare in the first place? You have to apply for financial assistance, and when applying, you have to show documentation, which gets cross-checked. So how is it that $40 million a month worth of your welfare system goes to illegals? Especially considering that the entire budget for welfare for the state of California was under $20 million for the entire year, how is it that 240% of that budget got spent each month on just illegals? Er, sorry, my numbers were a little off. $20 million dollars was the entire Social Services budget, of which welfare was roughly half ($10 million). That's per year, for the entire state. So if 5,000% of that budget was spent on illegal immigrants in LA county, that leaves only -4900%, or negative three hundred ninety million dollars, to be spent on everyone else.

TheHeretic -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:30:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Forgive my lack of understanding... but if they aren't legal immigrants, how do they get welfare in the first place? You have to apply for financial assistance, and when applying, you have to show documentation, which gets cross-checked. So how is it that $40 million a month worth of your welfare system goes to illegals? Especially considering that the entire budget for welfare for the state of California was under $20 million for the entire year, how is it that 240% of that budget got spent each month on just illegals? I've no idea where you found those figures, Ialda. They are wrong. Here is a fairly recent news story on the subject. http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12489/

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I've no idea where you found those figures, Ialda. They are wrong. Here is a fairly recent news story on the subject. http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12489/ From here: www.ebudget.ca.gov Now, I suppose it could be possible that the state government of CA itself is lying about its own figures, or that the money isn't part of the state budget. But that just makes me more confused.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:35:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I've no idea where you found those figures, Ialda. They are wrong. Here is a fairly recent news story on the subject. http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12489/ From here: www.ebudget.ca.gov Now, I suppose it could be possible that the state government of CA itself is lying about its own figures, or that the money isn't part of the state budget. But that just makes me more confused. AHA! I missed the "dollars in thousands" bit. Now the numbers make SO MUCH more sense. So, let me see if this sounds plausible... 10 billion dollars in welfare, divided by 12 months, is about 800 million per month, of which 40 million gets used by illegals? So about 5% of the available budget. Okay, that sounds much more plausible, although putting it that way, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. With 36 million people living in CA, assuming roughly half are legal and old enough to be paying state taxes, this amounts to what, $2 per month out of your pocket? Most of us lose more than that in change every month.

TheHeretic -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:39:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I've no idea where you found those figures, Ialda. They are wrong. Here is a fairly recent news story on the subject. http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12489/ From here: www.ebudget.ca.gov Now, I suppose it could be possible that the state government of CA itself is lying about its own figures, or that the money isn't part of the state budget. But that just makes me more confused. Ok. Look for the place on your link, up towards the top right, where it says "dollars in thousands." See that? Unconfused now?

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:41:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I've no idea where you found those figures, Ialda. They are wrong. Here is a fairly recent news story on the subject. http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12489/ From here: www.ebudget.ca.gov Now, I suppose it could be possible that the state government of CA itself is lying about its own figures, or that the money isn't part of the state budget. But that just makes me more confused. Ok. Look for the place on your link, up towards the top right, where it says "dollars in thousands." See that? Unconfused now? Yep, already mentioned that. :) Still, from that perspective, it's a tiny fraction of the budget, and a very small out-of-pocket for the taxpayer (somewhere between $2 and $4 per month, per taxpayer).

TheHeretic -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/13/2009 11:54:24 PM)
Apples and oranges, Ialda. I'm quoting numbers from a county, you're grabbing the state budget, to talk about those numbers. 10 million people (ish) in LA county. The $40 (odd) million a month is getting spent there. Apply your "half taxpayers" principle (unless you decide to go back and edit that too?), your numbers just doubled or quadrupled. Have a nice night.

cadenas -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/14/2009 1:03:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u It's a tax thing is one way to look at it......but of course one must ignore the multitudes working under false SSN's who will never take a dime out of that system.That knife cuts both ways Rich. Mike, I'm coming to you from southern CA, where LA County alone is spending $40 million a month in welfare payments to illegal immigrants. Forgive my lack of understanding... but if they aren't legal immigrants, how do they get welfare in the first place? You are absolutely right. Even legal immigrants are generally not eligible for welfare, only US citizens are. The $40 million number has little relationship to reality. It came from a 2008 press release from an an anti-immigrant politician, Michael Antonovich, whose colleague on the LA Board of Supervisors, Gloria Molina, called his numbers "bloated". Antonovich also spends $1.9 million annually on his office, while Molina makes do with half that amount. If you read carefully, it actually counts benefits to US citizens (falsely attributed to illegal immigrants) and is a mix of federal, state and local spending (not "LA County alone").

Loki45 -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/14/2009 1:19:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u We as a Nation have no need for a bunch of armed vigilanties "patrolling" our border acting as a qausi legal arm of law enforcement.If you want to make a point about our porous borders all well and good...but he minutemen are not the answer. By the way once you plug that border....don't bitch about a 5.00$ tomato or ear of corn...just pony up the money and thank god for the secure borders.Adios amigos.... Oh I think there's a need. When there are daily stories about the escalating and increasingly violent drug war in border towns, as well as the plethora of other reasons why the border needs to be secure, but isn't. I think we do need groups who will do that very thing. I would never....EVER live anywhere within 300 miles of a border town, but if I did have propery along the border, I would secure it to the fullest possible extent of the castle doctrine. As for $5 tomatoes.....grand. I don't eat tomatoes anyway.

Loki45 -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/14/2009 1:22:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Mike, I'm coming to you from southern CA, where LA County alone is spending $40 million a month in welfare payments to illegal immigrants. Let's not forget that in hospitals along border towns, they lose about that much per MONTH in costs associated with births of illegal aliens. Not for all the care of the illegals, mind you....just the costs associated with the BIRTHS. Want to try and speculate as to the cost to the ER of the rest of their medical needs? They get FREE medical care at our expense....and I couldn't even afford a doctor's visit when I had pink eye.

cadenas -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/14/2009 1:37:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u We as a Nation have no need for a bunch of armed vigilanties "patrolling" our border acting as a qausi legal arm of law enforcement.If you want to make a point about our porous borders all well and good...but he minutemen are not the answer. By the way once you plug that border....don't bitch about a 5.00$ tomato or ear of corn...just pony up the money and thank god for the secure borders.Adios amigos.... Oh I think there's a need. When there are daily stories about the escalating and increasingly violent drug war in border towns, as well as the plethora of other reasons why the border needs to be secure, but isn't. Fortunately, even the Minuteman are probably smarter than to get involved with that! The LAST thing you would want is clueless civilians getting involved in an already-escalating international crime war. If we are lucky, it would only lead to escalation of the conflict. If the Minutemen really did get themselves involved in that, what do you think how long it would take for them to get abducted into Tijuana and found decapitated by a roadside? Sadly that already happens to too many US citizens to begin with. It could well lead to an international incident and Mexico stopping cooperation with the USA until such groups are brought under control. Paradoxically, the best way to secure the border against the drug lords may be to simply allow hardworking Mexicans to immigrate to the USA after a short background check. It would deprive them of the population living in the underground. Also, patroling the border is a lot easier when you are trying to stop only a few hundred drug smugglers.

cadenas -> RE: Minutemen not protecting US citizens (6/14/2009 1:41:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Mike, I'm coming to you from southern CA, where LA County alone is spending $40 million a month in welfare payments to illegal immigrants. Let's not forget that in hospitals along border towns, they lose about that much per MONTH in costs associated with births of illegal aliens. Not for all the care of the illegals, mind you....just the costs associated with the BIRTHS. Want to try and speculate as to the cost to the ER of the rest of their medical needs? You are contradicting yourself here. First you are complaining about the cost of prenatal care - which avoids an ER visit - and then you complain about the cost of an ER? Actually, illegal immigrants account for less than 1% of the cost of ER visits. More than 99% is incurred by Americans.

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