RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ?

RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/16/2009 10:10:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Neither. Since I don't use "belief" as a descriptor of my philosophies... Then what would be a better descriptor? What is a personal philosophy if not a belief system, a structure of principles and values in which you believe deeply? What part of your reasoning is sailing past me here?

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/16/2009 10:45:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Neither. Since I don't use "belief" as a descriptor of my philosophies... Then what would be a better descriptor? What is a personal philosophy if not a belief system, a structure of principles and values in which you believe deeply? What part of your reasoning is sailing past me here? Hell, im drunk enough to take a stab at this I have a code I follow, rules I will not deviate from within the rules I set for myself I define myself I do not define myself from what I am not, nor with what group may share my rules when pressed I usually go for the usual "Bastard Tech from hell" which I will admit is a bit of a cop-out I am a mix of different things, a constantly changing tapestry of assholishness and flirtatiousness If I had to pick one it would have to go by belief however since I have yet to find a religion that I can fully agree with, that leads into a long conversation

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/16/2009 11:09:32 PM)
Maybe where some of this is breaking down for some people is the interpretation of "belief" as a religious belief. I didn't take it that way in the OP, because I'm about as religious as your average mud turtle. It looks as though many, if not most, other posters may have seen it differently. I interpreted the word "belief" as a personal belief system. Which for some people, may or may not be at least part of a religious belief system, but not inherently so.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/16/2009 11:13:22 PM)
I think that is what is was as well and that belief, when not in line with a group can become... difficult to explain is a manner that is both adequate and short enough to post on a public board without knocking people out

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/16/2009 11:42:09 PM)
I am neither my origin, nor my beliefs. I am nothing more than the consequences of my existence and the results of my actions. I'm the sum of all the little decisions I've made - even the ones I'm not aware of. I'm the source of my shadow. I'm the fact that a girl walked onto the light rail crying and left smiling, because I smiled at her and told her how she was going to be okay. I'm the fact that a little boy is reading Isaac Asimov tonight, because I told his mom that if he liked robots he should read more robot stories. I'm the fact that an orchid is dying right now, because I forgot to water it. I'm the fact that someone is in involuntary mental care right now, because I didn't know how to help them. I'm the fact that my roommate's car got repossessed because I couldn't afford rent. I'm the fact that my friend survived for two years, because I loaned them a few thousand dollars when I had it. That is me. My beliefs can change; my origin is just an accident; my allegiances change as I better understand my obligations. But my actions carve an indelible swath through time, and for better or worse, they're me.

Aneirin -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 3:46:22 AM)
Perhaps my intentionin my initial post was unclear, but I was trying to avoid mentioning the different ethnic groups and their beliefs in the near middle east and middle east region, but I will now say what it was that inspired me to ask my question. My question came about because of the ongoing news from Israel, where those that are Israeli, call themselves Jews, not Israelis, this proffered the thought that those who follow the belief worldwide, prefer to call themselves by their religious title, not the nationality of the country they were born and live in. Furthermore, I do not understand why it is that when something is happening to a religious group of ' A ' nationality, it riles others of the same religious belief of other parts of the world, almost as if the religion is following the musketeer code, all for one and one for all, the threat that is happening to that initial nationality, that group of people in a country is seen as a religious persecution and not anything else. This I understand also happens with Islam too, but not it seems with Christians. Certain religious beliefs I feel it does not matter where they were born and live, they define themselves by their religious belief, not the country they come from. As the world is shrinking in terms of travel and the ease of which people can relocate elsewhere, could it be, our future, we will be defined by our belief and not our nationality.

CatdeMedici -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 3:56:34 AM)
My ancestry comes first, then My region, then My belief, then My nationality.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 6:42:31 AM)
My nationality comes before belief Aneirin. My beliefs are personal and nothing more than faith I have no way of knowing whether they are borneo out by reality. My nationality however is verifiable fact and I am certainly indebted to it. In my opinion first and foremost it is important to discharge one's responsibilities to what is rather than what might be.

olena -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 7:11:15 AM)
We are influenced by what culture(s) we grew up in, how people looked at us and the people who we were directly exposed to on a daily basis like parents and friends. This though does get filtered through our personality and how we viewed these experiences in a good or bad light. We as adults take all this and make our choices and judgments in life and call them our beliefs. But the foundation of our beliefs are our experiences combined with our personality in forming those beliefs. You can move to a different country and have new experiences that might alter beliefs but they rarely alter them to making any big changes in them.

pahunkboy -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 7:12:04 AM)
well- one can be a prisoner in their own world. or not. much of it is state of mind. ..a judge in a court of law- ok- ...this jumped out at me here locally. When the judge went thru the talk- he said "geographic peers". Meaning that same county. For a period of time- I lived ....elsewhere-....I shut off anything PA, and only bought cable to LA, and Chicago. It even felt warmer seeing the LA weather- then I hit the tan booth. So in my little world back then- I (vicariously) lived in LA. But all the while my body was in PA. My main group for friends- from LA.. (at that time) so it was a rather fun experiment to escape my life- and live a fantasy of sorts. With teck- it is easier to do so. I have to say- that during that time span I was in a handful of court cases. I desperately wanted OUT. I wanted my world to go away. One cant defy the courts. But- one can tune in KTLA, go to tanning booths in -10 windchill and speak mostly the La la land free spirits. :-)

NorthernGent -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 11:47:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin I came across this question whilst reading and listening to the happenings in the near middle east , middle east and environs, this concept that a person is named by their belief before their nationality, they are whatever first, foremost and always before any hint of where they come from, if at all it is mentioned. What to you comes first, your nationality or your belief, how do you identify yourself if asked by another ? If belief comes first, why ? Being born and bred in the North East has to leave its mark on you as it's a part of the country that is geographically and culturally distinct from the rest of England. I think we do a lot of things very well in England - and some not so well - and I feel fortunate to have been born in this country but nationality does not define me. Absolutely not. There is certainly a class element to my views - no matter what I earn I will always be Working Class - so I suppose that is important to me and does play a part in shaping my politics/values/beliefs or vice versa. I do think though that people's beliefs are not fixed - mine certainly aren't - and it follows thus that knowledge is the common denominator in what I think. I struggle to see a constant inner self and prefer to live my life as a bundle of perceptions and ideas that are open to change and thus able to take advantage of life's opportunities. For those who want the short answer: I define myself as an English superman.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 12:59:07 PM)
I am not a product of the beliefs under which I was raised, but I would guess that, between the two, I would be considered a product of my beliefs, rather than my nationality. I don't really feel patriotism -- I find that both patriotism and blind "faith" lead to the same questionable decision-making process... but that idea, too, -is- a belief (as in 'a particular understanding of the universe and one's place in it'), so it sort of becomes a vicious circle. Then again -- I can change my beliefs as often as there is compelling evidence to enable me to do so, so I find that living by personal tenets/beliefs empowering. Being bound by patriotism and nationalistic attitudes shaped by others for me to espouse.. not so much. DC

kdsub -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/17/2009 1:43:22 PM)
There is nothing wrong with being patriotic or having a strong faith in God...In fact my beliefs were formed while being raised in a free society and a forgiving religion. I would not choose to live in a society that was not democratic or did not allow freedom of religion. A good form of government is just good..common sense. BUT the United States is not the only democratic government with freedom of religion in this world. I could see myself becoming a citizen of many countries ...but they would need to reasonably match my beliefs. Butch

Aneirin -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/18/2009 4:59:35 AM)
Maybe it is because of my belief, that I take belief to be something second to nationality, it is a private affair for me and my source, something to think on when the times are right, not something that pervades my life to the point I am my belief. If I were to be asked what I am, I would simply reply British and that is that, never would pagan, buddhist, hindi, islamic, tao or christian come into the conversation. If I was asked by the same, as to what my belief was, my answer simply would none of your business, my belief is my own, or I have not decided yet. So in essence, I am just British, my belief does not even come into it. That is why I asked my question, for I did not understand why certain nationalities prefer to be called by their belief, before their nationality. To me, when words are spoken of those from Israel, they are Israeli, and those from Yemen, they are Yemenese, as in both these countries there exists others of other beliefs. To say Jewish or Muslim, implies anyone in any part of the world, not a specific area.

kdsub -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/18/2009 10:24:32 AM)
Then tell me this.... If your nationality did something that was so counter to your beliefs that your nationality and your beliefs were incompatible... which would you give up? This is an important point…as an example many Christian Germans during WWII choose to ignore their religious tenets and became mass murderers at the behest of their government. Perhaps the difference between you and me is I would judge my beliefs more important than my nationality in that circumstance. I don't men to say you would be a mass murderer but that ultimately beliefs should be stronger then nationalities. Butch

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/18/2009 12:23:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Then tell me this.... If your nationality did something that was so counter to your beliefs that your nationality and your beliefs were incompatible... which would you give up? This is an important point…as an example many Christian Germans during WWII choose to ignore their religious tenets and became mass murderers at the behest of their government. Perhaps the difference between you and me is I would judge my beliefs more important than my nationality in that circumstance. I don't men to say you would be a mass murderer but that ultimately beliefs should be stronger then nationalities. Butch My beliefs would win out After all, what good is anything else if I cant stand to look at myself in the mirror each morning?

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/18/2009 12:58:16 PM)
quote: Then tell me this.... If your nationality did something that was so counter to your beliefs that your nationality and your beliefs were incompatible... which would you give up? I don't know that this is a matter of -beliefs- as much as it is a matter of ethical constructs... have those who (attempt to) run the Powers That Be where you live done something that you cannot ethically condone, and which you have no power to either effectively stop or at least speak out against in a way that will make any kind of difference? To me, the point at which I feel like my 'homeland' is fostering an ethical atmosphere that I cannot abide and cannot change, I will not stay. I'm facing this now, on a couple of fronts, and I'm in the last gasps of "maybe this can be resolved in a just manner"... but it's -really-, -really- close. Once the tipping-point has been reached... I'm out. DC

Aneirin -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/19/2009 6:18:54 AM)
One thing is certain, you cannot help where you come from, what country you were born in, that being, you are of that country, your nationality. As to my beliefs, my county's rulers does lots that I don't agree with and has done lots, sometimes I am ashamed to be from a country whose rulers did/ done that, but as I have not the wherewithall to exit my country because of my disagreement and distaste, I like many others have to just lump it. My nationality is British, whether I like it or not. My beliefs, are part of me, I try to hold true to my beliefs in my personal existence, though I know what I believe might not be everyone else's cup of tea, but all I have to do, is be true to myself and that is what matters to me wherever I live or come to live.

kdsub -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/19/2009 9:49:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin One thing is certain, you cannot help where you come from, what country you were born in, that being, you are of that country, your nationality. As to my beliefs, my county's rulers does lots that I don't agree with and has done lots, sometimes I am ashamed to be from a country whose rulers did/ done that, but as I have not the wherewithall to exit my country because of my disagreement and distaste, I like many others have to just lump it. My nationality is British, whether I like it or not. My beliefs, are part of me, I try to hold true to my beliefs in my personal existence, though I know what I believe might not be everyone else's cup of tea, but all I have to do, is be true to myself and that is what matters to me wherever I live or come to live. I do understand what you are saying....but I would like to hope that I would have the strength to put my convictions before my allegiance to my country. You must remember that many people have left their countries of origin for the very reasons we are discussing… In fact a good part of the ancestry and citizens of my country came here because their beliefs were stronger than nationality. Butch

olena -> RE: Are you what you believe or where you come from ? (6/19/2009 11:13:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin One thing is certain, you cannot help where you come from, what country you were born in, that being, you are of that country, your nationality. As to my beliefs, my county's rulers does lots that I don't agree with and has done lots, sometimes I am ashamed to be from a country whose rulers did/ done that, but as I have not the wherewithall to exit my country because of my disagreement and distaste, I like many others have to just lump it. My nationality is British, whether I like it or not. My beliefs, are part of me, I try to hold true to my beliefs in my personal existence, though I know what I believe might not be everyone else's cup of tea, but all I have to do, is be true to myself and that is what matters to me wherever I live or come to live. I do understand what you are saying....but I would like to hope that I would have the strength to put my convictions before my allegiance to my country. You must remember that many people have left their countries of origin for the very reasons we are discussing… In fact a good part of the ancestry and citizens of my country came here because their beliefs were stronger than nationality. Butch Overwhelming majority of people if not all leave one country for another is simply because they hope their life is better in that country and has nothing to do with beliefs. I know like myself it is more that place has to be better then where I am now. The causes and reasons of why one is better then the other may go to more noble general beliefs but the root is core personal quality of life. The American immigrant was not noble heading to a country for beliefs but downtrodden and looking for a better place and a better chance to live life and be happy. Beliefs run a different second, third or more. People just do not leave countries thinking they will have a worse quality of life but at least they can live towards their beliefs.

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