Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (Full Version)

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Starbuck09 -> Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:00:13 PM)

  Okay I thought this might make an interesting debate. Why do we accept other cultures as a nation if one accepts that all humans are born with the same inherent value and right to life [Not that we are all born equal clearly we are not]. For example in Britain the practice of female circumcision is not lawful. If one was to attempt to perform the procedure on a girl in Kent you would be thrown in jail. Why therefore is it acceptable in, for example, Sudan? Is it geography that dictates our morals? As long as one is far enough away from our borders one's behaviour becomes acceptable?  I think it's important to note this is not an attack on other cultures i'm just curious as to how people justify this in their heads. Is it racism? Perhaps people feel that these cultures are savages incapable of respecting the sanctity of human life? If all men are born with the same inherent value then don't they all deserve to be treated and judged according to the same standard? In our society we have an enormous amount of choice and power in the creation of our social mores so obviously we feel the way we live is fair and just. In that case why do we wash our hands of those that have the misfortune to be born outside our sphere of diret influence? Should we not attempt to apply the same rules to other children as we do to our own?

  I am not neccesarily condoning this course of action I just want to see what people think and thought this might liven up a dull Tuesday evening.



LaTigresse -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:08:29 PM)

The same way we all condone our religious beliefs, behaviours and morals. The same way one culture feels a specific food is perfectly acceptable (like live grubs) yet someone like me gets the heebie jeebies just watching someone eat one on television.

It is how we are raised, what is instilled in us from birth.



Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:10:29 PM)

 Pecisely LaTigresse so if you are raised to believe in the sanctity of human life how do you reconcile this with accepting cultures that don't share your ideals?



LaTigresse -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:19:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Pecisely LaTigresse so if you are raised to believe in the sanctity of human life how do you reconcile this with accepting cultures that don't share your ideals?


I do my best to drag my brain outside of the box. To look at other cultures and it's practices through their eyes. It's not always easy and I am not always sucessful. I also have personal beliefs that help me accept that there will always be things/activities, in this world that go against my own beliefs and that it isn't always a bad thing. It just is what it is.

I can only live my life in a way that is morally correct to me. I cannot force my morals and beliefs upon others. Most of the time, it would be against my own morals to attempt to do so. Who is to decide what is right for everyone? Where is there some universal law that we all (all of humanity) must follow the same moral code? I don't believe in such. Therefor it makes it much easier to accept the existance of what is different than my own.



Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:27:03 PM)

 I understand what you are saying LaTigresse but I would find that argument more compelling if you didn't believe all humans have the same inherent value and right to life. if that is your base ideal from which your other beliefs flow then surely you cannot pick and choose which people you apply this concept to, by default it applies to everyone. If you were confronted in your own country by something that breached this belief you would attempt to stop it why then can you not do so outside your borders?
When you ask who decides what is right surely the answer is yourself?  If you believe that all of humanity shoukldn't follow the same moral code then you are condemning millions of people. That is fair enough in of itself but not if you believe human life is sacred. In that case you, myself and our societies are ignoring our ideals.



LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:36:20 PM)

is there any conflict in holding that all humans have the same inherent value and right to life, and respecting that various bands of humans may agree between them to hold certain beliefs and practice certain behaviours?

surely it must be that I should respect such differences because we each have the same inherent value and right to life, and equally that others must respect where we are different.

to hold that we all have the same inherent value and right to life, yet we may sit in judgement of others sounds to me like a variation on the old colonial attitudes of Britain wherewith we sought to civilise the world whilst simultaneously ignoring the systematic socio-cultural issues at home.

E



LaTigresse -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:37:25 PM)

Who said I feel that all human life has the same value? I don't. Many people de-value their own lives, who am I to argue with them. The reality is that I don't see life and death as being that huge of a deal.

I also feel that we get far too wrapped up in making death taboo. Someone dies, we say things like "they passed on" "they're gone" rarely does anyone say something like "Yeah, well grandma died yesterday." out of fear of being seen as crass or callous. Why? They freakin died! It's part of life. Sucks when it happens to someone younger than what we perceive as normal life span, but it does.

Any of my personal morals might be seen as inclusive to me and my life. Many of of my personal limitations are seen as completely acceptable by others. What on earth makes me an expert on what is right for them? Even suicide has acceptable and non acceptable clauses in my personal moral code. As does abortion and the death penalty. My moral limitations are based upon reasons that will be not be other's reasons. Therefor I cannot dictate their personal morality.



kdsub -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:42:02 PM)

I know I will be torched for this...but...you should not need to accept every single cultural idiosyncrasy of immigrants to your country.

If you…through your elected officials decide that a form of dress will not be allowed in your country then those that demand to wear it should turn around and go back home.

I understand this sounds harsh and petty but too bad… I believe people have a right to protect and preserve their own culture. Those entering your country and taking advantage of your form of government and benefits should abide by your mores and laws or just don’t come.

Butch



Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:48:11 PM)

 I presumed as you were posting on this thread that you did LaTigresse it is addressed to people who hold that belief that's the only reason.  I don't believe all humans are equal nor do I believe they are all of the same value, like you say people devalue their lives. However I do believe that everyone is BORN with the same value and so accordingly should be judged by the same yardstick. I think Tigresse that you may have misunderstood slightly the question i am asking. You say that what gives you the right to judge what is and isn't acceptable. That's fair enough idf you don't believe all of mankind is born with the same value and the question I asked was only directed at these people. If you don't hold that ideal then of course you have nothing to defend. 
    As an aside you say you don't see life and death as that big of a deal, while I completely accepth that this is a valid viewpoint might I suggest that you would think differently if you were scheduled for extermination along with your family for belonging to the wrong tribe, religion, race e.t.c. or having acid poured on your clit to destroy it's sensations. I'm not saying your wrong to have your view but it is, I believe, easier to think like that when you live in a country where death is not such an immediate fact.



kittinSol -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:48:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I know I will be torched for this...but...you should not need to accept every single cultural idiosyncrasy of immigrants to your country.



Nor should immigrants be expected to integrate their host culture as if they no longer had any rights to their own.



Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 1:54:58 PM)

 Lady E it is indeed exactly the same thought process as colonial Britain with the caveat that the people being colonised are of the same value as those colonising.
I don't understand how respect for the sanctity of life is embodied in accepting people's ideals that differ to your own. If we are all of the same value at birth then are we not all entitled to be judged by the same standard? In our society [I think you live in britain Lady E my apologies if i'm wrong] we live by a rigid set of rules. We can choose to leave the country if we do not accept them but by living here we concede that we believe our way of life is ''right'' [I am not arguing that our society is perfect in any way, it certainly isn't] given that why do we not attempt to give others the same benefit. No one at birth chooses to live according to any set of ideals and surely if we believe all babies are of the same value and we believe that our society is a embodies a correct way for people to be treated we should attempt to afford them the same privelliges we enjoy?



LaTigresse -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:10:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I presumed as you were posting on this thread that you did LaTigresse it is addressed to people who hold that belief that's the only reason.  I don't believe all humans are equal nor do I believe they are all of the same value, like you say people devalue their lives. However I do believe that everyone is BORN with the same value and so accordingly should be judged by the same yardstick. I think Tigresse that you may have misunderstood slightly the question i am asking. You say that what gives you the right to judge what is and isn't acceptable. That's fair enough idf you don't believe all of mankind is born with the same value and the question I asked was only directed at these people. If you don't hold that ideal then of course you have nothing to defend. 
   As an aside you say you don't see life and death as that big of a deal, while I completely accepth that this is a valid viewpoint might I suggest that you would think differently if you were scheduled for extermination along with your family for belonging to the wrong tribe, religion, race e.t.c. or having acid poured on your clit to destroy it's sensations. I'm not saying your wrong to have your view but it is, I believe, easier to think like that when you live in a country where death is not such an immediate fact.


Of course I would feel differently because it would involve me and mine. What that different feeling, morality.....etc, would be, I cannot say. I can only say what I think based upon my own experiences.

Please note, I am not saying what my specific morality is, or how that applies to how I feel about any specific act. I was purposely vague because there are too many variables.

I am the mother of an adult son that is circumsized. To many that was a horrible thing to do. Some may see it as horrible as I see the acid on the clit or killing because of religioun or tribe. I have strong feelings about all types of body mutilation, including things many people on this site find meaningful or erotic.

Where is the line drawn?



subrob1967 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:10:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Nor should immigrants be expected to integrate their host culture as if they no longer had any rights to their own.


Why not?
If they wanted to remain in their culture, they could have chose to stay in their culture.



LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:14:31 PM)

but Starbuck, it is something of a non sequitur to at one and the same time accord all humans inherent value and right to life alike, and then to deny them that value and that right by attempting to convert them from that which is their preference on the spurious grounds that we have higher inherent value and greater right to life.

E



Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:20:03 PM)

 The difference between your son's circumcision and genital mutilation is not the act itself but the desire behind carrying it out and the end result. Being circumcised does not destroy or greatly diminish a man's ability to enjoy sex nor is it intended to do so. However that is precisely the thinking and desired outcome with a cliterechtomy [that is almost certainly spelt wrong] as it is hoped that a woman will be less inclined to cheat on her man or be interested in sex in general if she does not enjoy it.  I believe the line, in this case, is drawn wherever the society we live in decides to draw it. Personally I feel that by making the choice to live in a country that has certain rights enshrined [not political views] that one by default should be willing to uphold them. in our case our societies espose the equality of human worth and so I wonder why we feel that this only applies to ourselves and not others.

 
I think what you say about how yu would feel differently in different situations is fair enough Tigresse but if you would feel differently if it involved you and yours then why not for other people, for they and theirs?



kittinSol -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:26:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Nor should immigrants be expected to integrate their host culture as if they no longer had any rights to their own.


Why not?
If they wanted to remain in their culture, they could have chose to stay in their culture.



And what is your culture made of, exactly [8|] ?



Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:28:29 PM)

 You're right in what you're saying Ellen but only when applying that concept to adults who have made a concious choice, [I am aware that there are plenty of people not in a position to make any choice but I think that reinforces my point] children by default do not need conversion as they have chose nothing a baby has no views religous, political ,sexual or otherwise. I don't think all people are equal or of the same value what I believe is that they are born that way which is different, similar, but different. I am also not saying that our way of life is necessarily better, of course I have no way of knowing. What I do know is that I believe it is better and presumably by choosing to live here those citizens I share my society with feel the same. I would also point out that there is a difference between having different values and conflicting ones. I am not condemning all other cultures, the vast majority while being different to our own still run along vaguely parallel lines that do not directly contradict our own nation's ideals.



philosophy -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:32:08 PM)

FR

...i think it's important to draw a distinction between cultural behaviour and legal behaviour. For instance, i moved to Canada from Wales. While here, as in someone elses house, i respect the laws of the land. That doesn't however mean i'm no longer Welsh.
Someone moves from country A to country B......as long as they act inside the law of country B why the hell should they adopt the culture of country B?



LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:36:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

You're right in what you're saying Ellen but only when applying that concept to adults who have made a concious choice, [I am aware that there are plenty of people not in a position to make any choice but I think that reinforces my point] children by default do not need conversion as they have chose nothing a baby has no views religous, political ,sexual or otherwise. I don't think all people are equal or of the same value what I believe is that they are born that way which is different, similar, but different. I am also not saying that our way of life is necessarily better, of course I have no way of knowing. What I do know is that I believe it is better and presumably by choosing to live here those citizens I share my society with feel the same. I would also point out that there is a difference between having different values and conflicting ones. I am not condemning all other cultures, the vast majority while being different to our own still run along vaguely parallel lines that do not directly contradict our own nation's ideals.


then you must change the parameters of your premise if you wish to ask opinions rather than debate the premise within the parameters given.

if what youre asking is whether the model of multi-culturalism we have in the UK is a good thing, or even a functional thing, then my views have been stated here time and again - it is not, it is not.

if what youre asking is whether the British (or even wider western) way of doing things is my preference, then it is - apart from the multi-cultural model we have, and/or whether I feel that way is (with all its failings) the most evolved in the World, then yes I think it is.

from there, one can derive my other views readily on the questions I believe you are asking, if its opinions you want.

E



kittinSol -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:38:07 PM)

Freedom of thought and speech are only defensible when the right kind of people use them [8|] .



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