RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life.

RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:42:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Freedom of thought and speech are only defensible when the right kind of people use them [8\|] . ...is that where i've been going wrong then? [:D]

LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:43:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Freedom of thought and speech are only defensible when the right kind of people use them [8\|] . What a deeply dangerous view to hold - unless youre being sarcastic? E

kittinSol -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:45:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Freedom of thought and speech are only defensible when the right kind of people use them [8\|] . unless youre being sarcastic? E Oui.

LaTigresse -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:45:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 The difference between your son's circumcision and genital mutilation is not the act itself but the desire behind carrying it out and the end result. Being circumcised does not destroy or greatly diminish a man's ability to enjoy sex nor is it intended to do so. However that is precisely the thinking and desired outcome with a cliterechtomy [that is almost certainly spelt wrong] as it is hoped that a woman will be less inclined to cheat on her man or be interested in sex in general if she does not enjoy it. I believe the line, in this case, is drawn wherever the society we live in decides to draw it. Personally I feel that by making the choice to live in a country that has certain rights enshrined [not political views] that one by default should be willing to uphold them. in our case our societies espose the equality of human worth and so I wonder why we feel that this only applies to ourselves and not others. I think what you say about how yu would feel differently in different situations is fair enough Tigresse but if you would feel differently if it involved you and yours then why not for other people, for they and theirs? What I am trying, and apparently poorly, to say is that while I find those practices appalling and would do away with them if the choice was up to me.....I do not live in their culture. It is the responsibility of the people involved, the people who's culture it is, to make those determinations. Surely not every sane rational adult believes it to be acceptable. I firmly believe that we can only change another culture, by positive examples and exchange of ideas and education rather than condemnation. I also think the US has been pretty lousy at this.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:46:22 PM)
I'm sorry Ellen I don't fully understand whay you are saying. Everything in the quoted text is within the parameters of the original post. I am not debating multiculturalism and it's relative merits that is our society. I'm not asking if our society is good I believe it is what i am asking is why if we believe these ideals are good enough for ourselves we do not attempt to apply them to others. that's all. If what i'm asking is unclear I apologise and will try again, 1 In our society we believe that all people are born with the same inherent value and right to life 2 We apply this ideal rigorously to those within our borders. 3 By choosing to live in our society i believe we also choose to accept it's ideals. 4 There are cultures that disagree with our ideals [whether they are ultimately right or wrong is irrelevant what matters is that we believe here and now that they are wrong] 5 A baby chooses nothing and has no say into which culture it is born. 6 Given all of the above do we not have a moral obligation to attempt to ensure that all people are born into a world where thay are judged the same as our own.

philosophy -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:52:14 PM)
....3 and 6 are in conflict. On the one hand you suggest the equivilant of 'when in Rome...', then you suggest 'When in Rome ask for fish and chips in an increasingly loud english accent'.

LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:52:29 PM)
so what youre asking is whether it is right to impose our ways on others so that they have the benefit of our superior ways as opposed to their ignorant/backward/stupid ways? absolutely not. there is no proof (and many contraindications) that our ways are so great. amd we undermine at once our own ideas of freedom when we try to impose our ways on others, even if we do so in the name of freedom. I will leave it for you to decide how amd whether my previous post fits into that scheme E

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:54:57 PM)
Tigresse you're not explaining yourself poorly at all I understand perfectly what you are saying I think it is myself who is perhaps not making my meaning clear. Why is it up to the people of those cultures to change their society. Is a man who lives in the Congo any different to me? Is his brain any less able to come to the same conclusions as my own? How in fact is a man who lives in the Congo any different to a man who lives down the street, or in the next county to me? If we as a society are willing to enforce our ideals on joe bloggs my neighbour then why not elsewhere? Is it simply geography that dictates what is and isn't acceptable behaviour?

LaTigresse -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:58:16 PM)
Because Starbuck.........who, what entity, is the entirety of the population of the world, going to vote into some new position to determine what is morally acceptable for all of humankind? And agree. It will not happen because we all have a different moral value placed upon human life.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 2:58:49 PM)
Philosophy I don't see how they are in conflict. 3 says that we choose to live in this society and so by default accept it's ideals, six states that those who have decided nothing by dint of the fact that they are not capable of doing so [as they are babies] should therefore be afford the same rights we believe are neccesary for ourselves. I absolutely do not enforce the idea of when in Rome, in many ways quite the opposite.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:05:26 PM)
But that's the contradiction Ellen that I wanted to debate. On the one hand our society states that all are born with the same inherent value while on the other hand it states that that particular ideal is justifiably thrown out of the window once one passes our own borders. In my opinion a society can not believe that all are born equal... unless you live in Darfur, as that is hypocritical and self defeating. I am n ot saying our way of life is perfect, it is not quite obviously so however if you choose to live by it's ideals then surely you have an obligation to uphold them and if not why not? That's what I wanted to debate.

DomKen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:15:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Okay I thought this might make an interesting debate. Why do we accept other cultures as a nation if one accepts that all humans are born with the same inherent value and right to life [Not that we are all born equal clearly we are not]. For example in Britain the practice of female circumcision is not lawful. If one was to attempt to perform the procedure on a girl in Kent you would be thrown in jail. Why therefore is it acceptable in, for example, Sudan? Is it geography that dictates our morals? As long as one is far enough away from our borders one's behaviour becomes acceptable? I think it's important to note this is not an attack on other cultures i'm just curious as to how people justify this in their heads. Is it racism? Perhaps people feel that these cultures are savages incapable of respecting the sanctity of human life? If all men are born with the same inherent value then don't they all deserve to be treated and judged according to the same standard? In our society we have an enormous amount of choice and power in the creation of our social mores so obviously we feel the way we live is fair and just. In that case why do we wash our hands of those that have the misfortune to be born outside our sphere of diret influence? Should we not attempt to apply the same rules to other children as we do to our own? I am not neccesarily condoning this course of action I just want to see what people think and thought this might liven up a dull Tuesday evening. I don't condone unethical acts, like any circumcision, done anywhere. I spend a lot of my time and income on stopping that sort of stuff.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:17:52 PM)
Fair play Ken more power to your arm.

LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:19:24 PM)
our way Starbuck is that which has evolved over centuries within our "folk" and associated "folks". it is not limited by geography but by the presence of sufficient of our folk in any place for our way to become the norm by dint of either demographics or past military prowess (usually some from each column). within the lands occupied and ruled by our folk, our way is naturally upheld against corruption and the ingress of others' ways (or should be) but not preserved as a fossil but evolved according to the interaction of the folk and events. in this, there is no barrier for those of alternative ethnic origin not to become part of the folk and thus of the whole state and process here. but the same thing applies for all other folk and their way. if we wish to establish our way amongst them, then we must do so either by the old fashioned methods or by convincing them with rational debate - noting that whichever method directly undermines our own way in its insistence on the values it has evolved. I have no obligation whatever to uphold the ways of my folk when amongst other folk except in my own "observation". I certainly have no right to impose the ways of my folk on other folk, unless I bring an army with me perhaps and even then I must accept the unlikelihood of success. I wonder if your whole point is not undermined - and the resolution of your questions discovered, by the recognition that there are such things as different folks rather than one world (as is preached to us), and the similar recognition that we are a folk in our own right too? (oh yes, we'm all effnick yeah?). E

philosophy -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:27:59 PM)
..ok, let's just take your apparent question head on.... "what i am asking is why if we believe these ideals are good enough for ourselves we do not attempt to apply them to others" ...because applying to them to other cultures assumes that we are correct. You are conflating the idea of believing oneself correct with actually being correct. Let's turn this around. Do you support the right of a generic Islamic country to come to England and enforce a system of education that fits their world view? If no, then why not?

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:34:27 PM)
I completely agree with nearly all of what you say in your last post Ellen but I draw slightly different conclusions. The first paragraph is quite correct though i think you can also influence cultures through emulation. There are plenty of examples of nations mimicking other cultures if they are desirable enough, our own nation does that fairly consistently. I also agree that we do not live in a single monolithic world but a very diverse one. However I do disagree that we are so different. I actually think that is one of the biggest problems our race faces we aren't actually different. Someone who supports fascism, or communism or capitalism e.t.c. e.t.c. ad infinitum is no different to say someone who votes conservative or labour in our own country. We have different traditions but that's it. I also think you have every rifght to impose your values on other ''folk'' but I also believe that they have every right to resist and in turn attempt to impose their will on you.

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:37:50 PM)
I completely support the right of an islamic country to attempt to enforce their will on Britain philosopy, i also believe in our right to resist. I am absolutely not mixed up being right with believing one is right and in fact if you read my posts philosophy you will see I have gone to great pains to make the distinction. For example the Nazis were not wrong there is no such thing I believe they were wrong check my posts i make it very clear that i understand the difference and recognise it's importance.

LadyEllen -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:41:16 PM)
I'm sorry Starbuck but I give others enough respect (on the basis that they have equal value and rights) to not impose my ways on them - and I insist on the same respect coming back my way (or its a handbagging). But I also give them them enough respect and expect the same for myself, to hear about their ways (and by extension views and ideas) and reserve the right to adopt or reject as I see fit (and as informed by the inherited ways of my "folk" probably). I think I now understand what youre arguing, but I prefer my way thanks; far less bloodshed and far higher chance of taking on that which is useful whilst rejecting what isnt, without anyone having to suffer. E

Starbuck09 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:46:39 PM)
That's fair enough Ellen, it's just that personally I think there would be far far less bloodshed in the long term , though of course that might be nonsense but it is what i believe[;)]

Politesub53 -> RE: Acceptance of other cultures versus equality of human life. (6/23/2009 3:48:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 Why not? If they wanted to remain in their culture, they could have chose to stay in their culture. So you think the early settlers should have done this then...Somehow I doubt you do.

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