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variation30 -> RE: On addiction and D/s (7/2/2009 1:12:19 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Sarahsubmits
What you fail to see is that some things really are too much.
a lot of us will continue to fail to see that.
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Your argument is little more than if someone wants to do it, it must be ok.
exactly. are you suggesting that individuals do not have a right to do what they will with their own minds and bodies?
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It is not circular logic to judge someone's stability, or mental health by their actions. How else are you to make a call on it?
the 'call' you are making is nothing more than stigmatization of actions that are not socially acceptable. if you would sit in on an anthropology class I believe you'll find a lot of these actions that are indicative of a 'mental illness' (a grave misnomer, might I add) in western society common practice. among these common practices are self mutilation for various reasons. are you suggesting that a tribe of individuals that use self-mutilation as a means to express bravery all suffer from poor mental health? if you do, I would suggest you take a less ethnocentric view of the world (though that would require a respect for the differences of individual will). or let's take this further. if a man felt suicide was a respectable act due to his dishonoring of his family or his self, would you consider him mentally unstable? if so, it is a wonder feudal japan or the roman empire existed as long as they did with so many of the insane wandering their streets.
you are relying upon social norms or subjective feelings to gauge what behavior is acceptable. real medicine, not to be confused with psychiatry or psychology, does not rely upon such normative judgments, it takes a much more objective approach.
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If a nineteen year old girl is pleading with me to please her 32 year old master (because she thinks I will make him happy by being pregnant - and by extension be pleased with her for finding me for him) and she is doing this because he doesn't want her any more, because she can't get pregnant - then she is clearly on the face of it, obviously not in a mentally healthy place.
why is she not in a mentally healthy place? because she cares for someone who you do not care for? is it because she expresses that affection differently than you would?
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She is so not in a healthy place mentally. I honestly don't know what makes a girl like that. I would guess some sort of terrible abuse as a child, and that she is now just being re-traumatized again and again.
...wow.
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You missed the OP's entire point about heroin. Just because someone wants it, does not make it ok to use or deal. The dealer is clearly taking advantage of the junkie. The junkie is too far gone to see how her body is eating itself up, or how her life is falling apart.
I could substitute heroin dealer with mcdonalds manager and make the exact same point. if I were to suggest that we ban the sale of 'unhealthy foods' or tobacco or sunbathing (as melanoma can be quite lethal) or flying in airplanes because individuals who engage in such actions are obviously unable to come to the correct assessments of the involved risks, I would be doing so with the same logic utilized by the OP.
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I think the OP got frustrated because he expects people to get that - because, it's something obvious to most people.
just as it was obvious to most people that home values would continue to double every couple of years from here until eternity. unfortunately most people are short sighted, reactionary, and have no grasp of causality.
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His mistake was in talking about Latin phrases and going off on all sorts of tangents with you and the other guy - who's big point after sooo much haranguing about the disease model of addiction, was that he doesn't like addiction to be called a disease, because people like drugs.
my big point was that there has never been any test that has proven behavior is not under the direct control of the will...even in cases of what is traditionally thought of as addiction to alcohol or drugs. individuals, when given a choice between partaking in those drugs or another activity they valued more highly (in an ordinal fashion) would abstain from the drug. this relates to the topic by showing that there has never been any demonstration of any of these complex actions which are due to circumstances that are beyond the individual's control. that is to say that even in the case of these 'self-destructive' behaviors, they are only carried out because of a sincere desire to continue such behaviors (for whatever reason). which brings us to one of these two conclusions: 1) if the action is undertaken willingly, then it is unjust for me to interfere or 2) people should only be allowed to do what I think they should be allowed to do, regardless of their opinion.
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It is not ad hominem to be un impressed with such pretentious ways to dress up the phrase, "if people want it OK." I've seen too many junkies to agree.
there is an excellent book called "The Manufacture of Madness". it is a comparative study of the american psychiatric movement and the spanish inquisition. both had similar arguments to what you just stated as to why they were just to interfere in another person's life.
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You said something about cutting off limbs. You asked rhetorically if it was unethical to deny someone the right to chop off their leg, or something close to that.
Let me answer unequivocally. If someone wants their healthy leg cut off, they are not sane. A doctor who cut it off would be thrown in prison. A girl who wanted her leg (or finger) cut off is not sane. Her :master who cut it off would be thrown in prison. There are limits to everything.
there is a poster here who cut off one of her digits as a show of submission to her master.
I hope she will weigh in on your belief that she is not sane and that her master should be thrown in prison.
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