RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:19:18 PM

Starbuck09

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Again why domdaddy?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:20:24 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Why should everyone have a right to vote DomDaddy?

Because the governed, regardless of rank, have a right to participate in the selection of those who will govern. Again, unless forfeited by deeds and actions.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 6/24/2009 5:21:13 PM >

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:23:16 PM

Starbuck09

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They have the right but why should they have it?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:28:54 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

They have the right but why should they have it?

Of course. The decisions of a government effect everybody regardless of rank, ergo, those effected have every right and should be allowed to have a say in it, even if they choose not to say anything,, even if they choose to say something foolish.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:33:19 PM

Starbuck09

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But there are plenty of regimes which don't afford their subjects this power. Why are we different? The problem with democracy is that it is easy to slide into cliche when describing it but that doesn't neccesarily make the cliches wrong. For example freedom is not free. I agree it requires sacrifice. in this case the sacrifice has been made for it we are no more than consumers of freedom. Would it not be better to have a token gesture as a prerequisite for aquiring this almost unparalleled power?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:52:45 PM

FlipFlip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Actually, those in prison do retain the right to vote.

And I'm not saying that the uneducated have no right to vote - I am arguing for those wiser to carry more weight.

But I am an elitist yes, but in terms of ability not wealth or inherited position; and the sooner we have that approach in society rather than the low brow and no brow, the celebration and promotion of idiot culture and a preference for mindless titillation so we can all be "equal" according to the lowest common denominator, the better.

E

Why stick to being an elitist about education? Why not make it cover all forms of the human condition? Lets make people race to get a vote, make them fight it out. I bet the 20 year old hoodie would do a damn sight better then most the people on this site.
Why not give votes to people who can play musical instruments?
People who can dance?
People who are educated, fit, healthy, of good breeding age, tall, blonde, blue eyed, aryan? Sound familar?
Where does it stop?
The thought that all the fat lazy people might not get a vote kinda makes sense to me, why not stop people who cant take care of themselves from voting? Cause if they cant take care of them selves how shoud they know how to take care of a nation?
Just because some one is not educated dose not not mean they are stupid. I am appalled by the state of our culture. (Even more appalled by the state of the English and American cultures.)
I have use some fairly harsh examples here but i think you can see my position. Just because someone does not have worth in your eyes does not mean they have no worth at all. The current system is fair and equal to all.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 5:56:43 PM

cpK69

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~fr~

Voting is the submission of one’s opinion, as to who they believe should be in a given position. I find the idea of excluding opinions to be a dangerous practice. Then again, I also find the idea of ‘majority rules’, to be similar to saying, “only the midsection of ‘Man’ matters, his legs, arms, and head can be forgotten.

While I can’t say I agree with the vote of the person, who voted, SpongeBob for president, I can certainly understand how they came to the conclusion; SpongeBob was as good a choice as any.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 6:08:30 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Voting ought to be weighted to reflect the comparative validity of opinions across individuals; an older person should have greater votes than a younger, an educated person more than an uneducated etc.

What constitutes being educated? I think that too many people confuse education with intelligence but they are not one and the same. You may claim that the “Hoodie” is uneducated but what you really mean is that he has not has a formal education. In fact the “Hoodie” is very well educated – in being a “Hoodie.” He knows all the rules of street culture, etc. But that’s a side issue.

My main problem with only allowing “educated” people to vote is: who decides what constitutes “educated? I have seen as a matter of routine political “discourse” people on both sides of the ideological divide accuse the other side of being stupid (you can find many examples on these boards). I have no doubt – human nature being what it is – that either side would, if given the chance, gleefully declare the other side to be uneducated and therefore denied the right to vote.

That leads to another problem I have with your proposal. For a right to have any meaning it must apply to all classes of people. I don’t have a problem with denying the vote to a convicted felon or a genuinely mentally deficient person (in other words, specific individuals for specific reasons) but it is another matter entirely to deny a right based upon a person’s race, religion, etc. Perceived education certainly falls into that category. If you deny a person their rights based upon some external criteria then you have accepted the premise that it is okay to deny people their rights based upon that external criteria. In this case, if you accept that it is okay that some people be denied their right to vote because they don’t fit your definition of educated then you have accepted the underlying premise that it is okay to deny people the right to vote based upon some external definition of educated. When somebody in power decides that you are not properly educated enough to vote – on what basis will you assert your right to vote?

Most of us want a smooth running, peaceful, society but it is not possible. Democracy by its very nature is messy.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 6:11:24 PM

Starbuck09

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Please I don't want to dictate rules or anything but the question i am asking is not who should be allowed to vote but should there be a right to vote or should it be a privilege earnt by some token sacrifice. The other debate is interesting but not what i'm asking.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 6:23:25 PM

RealGirl4One

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If it were to be a privilege, I worry what would be the necessary requirements to earn it. It would be far too easy for someone to usurp those rights and install some form of censorship which would serve no benefit.

I do think people should realize that the rights we have, whether voting or otherwise, came at a high cost in some cases and we should not forget those who have given their lives to insure our freedom.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 6:25:25 PM

Starbuck09

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Would it not be as easy to enshrine a minimum requirement of one days community service to become an eligible voter Real Girl, in comparison to our current situation?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 6:53:56 PM

DarkSteven

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It is absolutely critical that the vote be extended to all of voting age. This is for two reasons:

1. The best government is when all participate. Learn, discuss, and vote accordingly. This is of course not fully realizable but should be a striven-for goal.

2. Who gets to decide who is worthy to vote? I could easily come up with criteria which would appear unbiased but would be correlated with either GOP or Dem affiliation.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 6:59:13 PM

Starbuck09

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How about a nationwide referendum to decide on the criteria? I have to stress again Steven that I am not asking who should be allowed to vote but what is neccesary to obtain it.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 7:12:33 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Please I don't want to dictate rules or anything but the question i am asking is not who should be allowed to vote but should there be a right to vote or should it be a privilege earnt by some token sacrifice. The other debate is interesting but not what i'm asking.

The same general argument applies. If you put conditions (other than being a citizen and an adult) upon voting then you accept the premise that you can put conditions on a right. You may consider your conditions to be a token sacrifice but others may have a different idea of what constitutes a token sacrifice - one that disenfranchies whole groups of people, including you.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 7:15:22 PM

Starbuck09

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But I don't believe it should be a right but a privilege open to any who want it Marc.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 7:43:14 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

But I don't believe it should be a right but a privilege open to any who want it Marc.

A privilege, by definition, is not open to everybody. So the question then becomes: who will be granted this privilege? Which leads to the question: what conditions have to be met to earn the privilege to vote? Which in turn leads to: who decides what conditions earn the privilege?

Surely you can see how fraught with the potential for abuse of power and oppression that is?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 7:45:55 PM

Starbuck09

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Your absolutely right a privilege is open to those who earn it. I propose a days comunity service per year as the requirement. If that was the proposal we could have a national referendum to see if people were willing to agree or not.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 7:46:46 PM

playfulotter

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As I recall and i might be wrong..they changed the voting age from older (maybe it was 21) to 18 around the Vietnam era when they said that if men can be sent off to war to fight and die for their country they should be able to vote....which makes sense to me..... I remember the first time I voted for President was Jimmy Carter.

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 6/24/2009 7:48:32 PM >

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 8:53:45 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: playfulotter

As I recall and i might be wrong..they changed the voting age from older (maybe it was 21) to 18 around the Vietnam era when they said that if men can be sent off to war to fight and die for their country they should be able to vote....which makes sense to me..... I remember the first time I voted for President was Jimmy Carter.

Of course those same men that are sent off to war to fight and die for their country, that have the right to vote, still are deemed too immature to walk in a bar and have a beer.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/24/2009 9:48:45 PM

RealGirl4One

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It depends on the state. However, don't confuse the issue or get sidetracked about the right to drink a BEER.

The question is WHO DECIDES what qualifies one for the privilege. Anytime you qualify something you open it up to abuse by those who would restrict it.

And what is the point of a TOKEN day of service? A token by definition is of questionable value. Someone who works 3 jobs struggling to support a family would have a hard time with your "token" day of service whereas someone who has servants who do everything but tuck him/her into bed at night would have lots of time for "token" service. So the person who is doing the right thing, not being on welfare but struggling mightily to hold down many jobs would be stressed to the limit in order to qualify for the "right" you wish to control.

< Message edited by RealGirl4One -- 6/24/2009 9:50:14 PM >

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