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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 3:43:12 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Everyone has the same right to vote, if you are jailed for crime, you lose that right, on release, you regain the vote. Thats how it should be, not some elitist bullshit that you are trotting out.


Here in the USA, in many states, once you are convicted, you lose the right to vote for life. But the prison population is still counted in the census, so a few small towns with a big prison as their main "industry" here have as much representation in Congress as some of the largest cities.


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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 3:50:12 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

This thread isn't about who should have the right to vote Nelly. It is about what is necessary if anything to earn that vote, whether it should be a right or a privilege. I have consistently stressed that the vote should be available to all those who want it.


Here in the USA, we have plenty of experience with exactly that approach. First it was slavery. After the civil war, blacks suddenly were declared citizens, so many states implemented exactly what you are proposing, in the form of a poll tax - a "token" amount of money that voters had to pay to be registered to vote. It was carefully set so that the - predominantly poorer - black population couldn't afford it.

A day of service as you propose would work the same way. Who do you think is more likely to be able to take a day off for service - Bill Gates or the single mom of three working in two jobs without benefits (and that means, without paid vacation days or sick days) to make ends meet?


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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 3:51:55 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Why should everyone have a right to vote DomDaddy?


Because Democracy is the worst possible form of government. Except for all the others.


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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 3:56:12 PM   
Tals


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And I'm not saying that the uneducated have no right to vote - I am arguing for those wiser to carry more weight.




And who would get to decide who's wiser?  An older person could believe the best way is a more Stalinist approach and a younger person could believe a more free and open society is better.  Or vice versa.  So who's to say who is wiser?  Each should be free to vote for whomever they wish without either carrying more weight than the other.  If not, then voting will become meaningless. 

Now having said all that, to answer the OP I'm not sure.  If you're talking strictly about the UK that is.  Would I be incorrect in thinking that your answer would be up to the Queen ultimately?  I mean whether she exercises it or not, wouldn't she still retain the power to ultimately say whether it's a right or priviledge?  Or has the royals power declined that much? 



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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 4:02:08 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Voting ought to be weighted to reflect the comparative validity of opinions across individuals; an older person should have greater votes than a younger, an educated person more than an uneducated etc.


Yes, I totally agree. Older people know better. Such as my grandfather - and nearly everybody his generation that I know - who believed to his deathbed that Hitler would be vindicated.

Personally, if you want to go that way, I'd argue that young people would be given two votes each. Two reasons. First, young people tend to vote their conscience rather than their (often financial or otherwise selfish) interests. Second, young people should have a say in shaping the world they will live in, rather than having it shaped by old people who will never suffer the consequences if they guess wrong (and, let's face it, all voting is guessing on who will be doing the best job).


< Message edited by cadenas -- 7/5/2009 4:09:49 PM >

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 4:07:45 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		The lesson of this thread is very clear; state an ideological position and apathy evaporates in a plethora of fierce and well stated debate.

On the other hand, state a bland and easy to hear platitude or two and there is little or no interest - ie apathy.

E

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 4:36:29 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tals

Would I be incorrect in thinking that your answer would be up to the Queen ultimately?  I mean whether she exercises it or not, wouldn't she still retain the power to ultimately say whether it's a right or priviledge?  Or has the royals power declined that much? 





...yup, you'd be incorrect. The monarchy can bring forth no new legislation off its own bat. The only part it plays in law-making is to rubber stamp legislation passed by Parliament. Technically the queen could refuse to sign a piece of legislation, thus blocking it from becoming law, but officially that's never happened.
Unofficially, there have been persistent rumours that the first draft of Thatchers iniquitous poll tax was so outrageous that, via back channels, government was informed that she might not sign it....thus precipitating a constitutional crisis. The bill was substantially rewritten...it was still a mean minded piece of nastiness...but it wasn't quite as bad as La Thatch originally wanted it.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 4:41:22 PM   
Tals


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...yup, you'd be incorrect. The monarchy can bring forth no new legislation off its own bat. The only part it plays in law-making is to rubber stamp legislation passed by Parliament. Technically the queen could refuse to sign a piece of legislation, thus blocking it from becoming law, but officially that's never happened.
Unofficially, there have been persistent rumours that the first draft of Thatchers iniquitous poll tax was so outrageous that, via back channels, government was informed that she might not sign it....thus precipitating a constitutional crisis. The bill was substantially rewritten...it was still a mean minded piece of nastiness...but it wasn't quite as bad as La Thatch originally wanted it.


Ah I see.  Thank you for clearing that up. 

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 4:44:06 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tals

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...yup, you'd be incorrect. The monarchy can bring forth no new legislation off its own bat. The only part it plays in law-making is to rubber stamp legislation passed by Parliament. Technically the queen could refuse to sign a piece of legislation, thus blocking it from becoming law, but officially that's never happened.
Unofficially, there have been persistent rumours that the first draft of Thatchers iniquitous poll tax was so outrageous that, via back channels, government was informed that she might not sign it....thus precipitating a constitutional crisis. The bill was substantially rewritten...it was still a mean minded piece of nastiness...but it wasn't quite as bad as La Thatch originally wanted it.


Ah I see.  Thank you for clearing that up. 



...no problem. Unless you're used to it, the UK constitutional system is somewhat counter-intuitive....especially if you're from the US.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 10:28:34 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I think it's perfectly OK to stay home on election.

BUT...

I better not ever hear a non-voter utter even the slimmest suggestion of a complaint about who's in office.



Why not???

Liberty means you can not vote AND bitch about your leaders.

That is basis for America, "We hold these truths to be self-evident... Live, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.." and all that jazz. (Note the capital letters btw... they were written that way for a reason in The Declaration.)




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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 10:31:01 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

The benefit would be to remind people of how great a liberty the ability to vote is,


Again... what about one's self evident Right to the Liberty NOT to vote???

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 10:34:53 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The lesson of this thread is very clear; state an ideological position and apathy evaporates in a plethora of fierce and well stated debate.

On the other hand, state a bland and easy to hear platitude or two and there is little or no interest - ie apathy.

E


well... That is another great thing about being an American...

One has the God given, self evident right to be apathetic if one so chooses.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/6/2009 12:02:55 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		You can be apathetic if you want - the basic question of this thread is "how to increase participation in democracy" meanwhile, in a country where we are steadily slipping towards what is effectively one party rule by the Square Mile Party.

The Reith Lectures (BBC, though this year delivered by an American (Professor Sandel, Harvard) and recorded in the US) last month provided some insight into how such a situation might have come about, along with its accompanying public apathy towards democracy. The abandonment of ideology and ethics and its replacement with a "the market knows best" politics was identified. By restoring ideology and ethics, we ought to renew our politics and so our democracy.

And note how, once ideology is introduced into a debate, the responses come back thick and fast - ie no apathy. It would therefore seem that such is the way to go to increase participation, and even those who celebrate their liberty to apathy find themselves unable to resist.

E

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/6/2009 12:34:13 AM   
maestro365


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Status: offline 		If the question is really about right vs privilege, the answer lies in the definition of citizenship; particularly citizenship in a democracy.  If you are born here, you are a citizen, and voting is a right. If you are not born here, it is citizenship that is the privilege, but once granted, all associated rights are thereby bestowed.  A democracy requires the consent of the governed for its fundamental legitimacy.  This requires the population to have a right in its government's structure and composition.  Anything less undermines democracy.  Now ... if the question is really how people vote?, or how often?, or how wisely?, that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.  We have enough of a problem with 'one dollar, one vote'; we certainly don't need to compound the issue with 'one year, one vote'.  I am quite satisfied with the notion of 'one person, one vote'.  If anything should be mandatory, it should not be voting, but rather education.  We don't need a rich electorate any more than we need an old one, a white one, a male one, etc. ... what we need is an 'informed' one (and if ANY of you construes this to imply that there should EVER be any sort of educational/literacy requirement for the right to vote, off with your royalist/imperial/dictatorial/self-appointed-oligarchical heads).  Remember, the bottom line is that voting is a right, a right that is required by democracy itself ... now if you want to predicate the ability to obtain a driver's license upon the successful attainment of a college degree, that, I would be happy to entertain (and I mean a real degree, a BA or BS, not some petty associate or business certificate (like the nonsense called the BBA)) - this would do wonders for traffic congestion/pollution, simultaneously promoting a culture of mass transit.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/6/2009 9:47:30 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

the basic question of this thread is "how to increase participation in democracy"
Actually, Lady E, the basic question of the thread, as has been reiterated several times by the OP, is should we restrict the right to vote by imposing some form of required sacrifice to gain the priviledge of voting.

I am all for increasing the number of people who vote, even if it means more spoiled ballots. I am, however, 100% against the giving government the power to restrict that right.The OP's idea is nothing more than a poll tax in disguise (using "poll tax" in the US sense rather then the British sense) and would most probably result in even fewer people voting.

As far as ideology galvanizing a response, you are correct, and reintroducing ideology into our politics would be a good thing. It would present the electorate with an actual choice, in an era when there is often precious little to differentiate the candidates or their platforms.


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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/6/2009 10:07:12 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maestro365

If the question is really about right vs privilege, the answer lies in the definition of citizenship; particularly citizenship in a democracy.  If you are born here, you are a citizen, and voting is a right. If you are not born here, it is citizenship that is the privilege, but once granted, all associated rights are thereby bestowed.  A democracy requires the consent of the governed for its fundamental legitimacy.  This requires the population to have a right in its government's structure and composition.  Anything less undermines democracy.  Now ... if the question is really how people vote?, or how often?, or how wisely?, that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.  We have enough of a problem with 'one dollar, one vote'; we certainly don't need to compound the issue with 'one year, one vote'.  I am quite satisfied with the notion of 'one person, one vote'.  If anything should be mandatory, it should not be voting, but rather education.  We don't need a rich electorate any more than we need an old one, a white one, a male one, etc. ... what we need is an 'informed' one (and if ANY of you construes this to imply that there should EVER be any sort of educational/literacy requirement for the right to vote, off with your royalist/imperial/dictatorial/self-appointed-oligarchical heads).  Remember, the bottom line is that voting is a right, a right that is required by democracy itself ... now if you want to predicate the ability to obtain a driver's license upon the successful attainment of a college degree, that, I would be happy to entertain (and I mean a real degree, a BA or BS, not some petty associate or business certificate (like the nonsense called the BBA)) - this would do wonders for traffic congestion/pollution, simultaneously promoting a culture of mass transit.

Excellent post (although a bit of white space would have helped .)

I remember a book by Heinlein that may be applicable to the discussion: Star Ship Troopers (and not that abortion of a movie by the same name).

In this alternate future, the right to vote is dependent upon successful completion of a "term" in Federal Service.

This was something that (in this fictional universe) that came about after a major world war, and during the rebuilding of nation states. Returning soldiers didn't trust the way that the idiot politicians had been voted in by even more idiot voters. They did trust the bond of service that they experienced, and the thought was that they (soldiers) were the ones who ended up paying for the idiot politicians at the end of the day, therefore they had the major right to pick them.

Later, not just military service, but any Federal Service qualified one for the right to vote, and to hold office.

The point that the author was making was one that our own (US) founding fathers wrestled with: shouldn't the right to vote be exercised by those who took the time to educate themselves, or - more realistically - had a stake in good governance?

The ownership of land was often a requirement to vote in early America.

In theory I agree that there should be some sort of self-selection for who has the right to vote. In reality, such a thing is subject to a lot of potential abuse.

Firm

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/7/2009 9:46:45 PM   
maestro365


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Status: offline 		While I do agree in the principle of some sort of national service (from military to peace corps and/or other similarly established programs), I would not link that service with the right to vote. Maybe there should be a set of duties/responsibilities along side the set of rights, but setting up conditions for access to one's rights doesn't say much for those rights. The last thing we need to do is cheapen the language concerning our core values. Rights mean Rights (of the 'inalienable' as opposed to the 'earned' variety); not granted by governments, rather protected by governments. We freely threw about terms like 'liberty', freedom', and 'democracy' when we only wanted the political participation of the land holding gentry, or thought it was quite appropriate to own people, or believed the feminine half of the population was not worthy of consideration in the political sphere. Yes we sometimes get a little loose and cheap with our language, but should ayways resist the urge to do so.  We should strive to be ever more inclusive, politically, socially, culturally, ... not less so.

As for all those who have used this thread to rail against apathy, I would argue that no such thing exists - I hear far too many people bitching about everything under the sun. Just because someone doesn't care as passionately about something as another might doesn't mean that is due to apathy, and certainly does not universally warrant the application of such a perjorative label.

And as for the inclusion of  bit of white space here and there, I have no objection, and moreover will state that it was a point well made. If, or as, I post more and become familiar with this format/system, it is just possible that I may include more bells & whistles (so the 'preview' button really means something?).

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