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Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 2:54:29 PM   
CatdeMedici


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This spins off Steel's "Martyr" post as it is something I've been thinking about lately--and its not so much in the "looking for someone" category as its in the "changing for someone" category.
 
Example: A few years ago I was in communication with a submissive that had been trained to serve a "Victorian Mistress"-- as a slavebutler--separate room, specific "attendant" responsibilities, no sex, all service, punishment with a silver handled antique brush--now the service part of it really appealed to Me--however, over time, I found Myself changing to his training rather than either rejecting him as not suitable or speaking up--well needless to say I came to My senses, as it became a very rigid tug of war---
 
Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 3:05:49 PM   
SteelofUtah


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Very Interesting.

I do know what you are talking about I have experienced it. However not quite in the example you gave.

I met a girl and we hit it off and payed at a got real cozy at few munches and started spending a lot of time together and as this happened she started pushing for certain things that I was not comfortable with.

She was into humiliation. Being drawn on, talked dirty to, and treated like a crap. It was something that I wasn't into but I did it because of the pay off and how she reacted to it and eventually I found myself becoming a much more nagative person I was becoming okay with being Mean and I didn't like that. I had to end it because it wasn't healthy for me and as such I did not like the person I was becoming.

To this day I bet she is confused about why it ended the way it did because she could not understand why I was so good at it and yet did not like doing it.

So to a degree I can see where people form to be a better match for a partner and how at times that can be a negative.

I know many submissives are subjected to it all the time in the name of being a better submissive and I can honestly say I would never wish the feelings I felt on another human being. I wonder how many other D-Types can relate to this changing as it becomes easier and the payoff is great but changes their demeanor in a negative way?

Steel

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 3:39:01 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici
Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?

For me, at least, this seems like the wrong question and so no answer to it will be correct. For me, what happens is that both myself and my partner become brand new people when we get involved. I don't have any sense of infringement on my "me-ness". I expect to be totally different with a new woman. The only real question is do I like the new me or not?

To make a specific example, were Carol to die today, I would have zero expectation that I would be a dominant in a new relationship. I would be whatever I was with that new woman. And then I would either like that or not. It's a bit far-fetched, but I have no problem imagining a relationship with some different woman where I took on a submissive role, possibly even TPE-ish sort of submissive. It'd all depend on whether that woman was able to make that work for me.


< Message edited by leadership527 -- 6/25/2009 3:41:32 PM >


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 4:01:15 PM   
QuixoticErrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Very Interesting.

I do know what you are talking about I have experienced it. However not quite in the example you gave.

I met a girl and we hit it off and payed at a got real cozy at few munches and started spending a lot of time together and as this happened she started pushing for certain things that I was not comfortable with.

She was into humiliation. Being drawn on, talked dirty to, and treated like a crap. It was something that I wasn't into but I did it because of the pay off and how she reacted to it and eventually I found myself becoming a much more nagative person I was becoming okay with being Mean and I didn't like that. I had to end it because it wasn't healthy for me and as such I did not like the person I was becoming.

To this day I bet she is confused about why it ended the way it did because she could not understand why I was so good at it and yet did not like doing it.

So to a degree I can see where people form to be a better match for a partner and how at times that can be a negative.

I know many submissives are subjected to it all the time in the name of being a better submissive and I can honestly say I would never wish the feelings I felt on another human being. I wonder how many other D-Types can relate to this changing as it becomes easier and the payoff is great but changes their demeanor in a negative way?

Steel


This is an awesome post too.

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 4:14:23 PM   
NihilusZero


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Looking to the source of morphing misses the actual progression. We are all prone to malleability. It's much more commonly accepted to have an ideological idea or some sort of non-sentient entity/thing being the motivator for change in an individual. It's only when the motivation can be attached to another person , in a romantic/sexual fashion, that we get a knee-jerk reaction to assume it's negative.

If we are bombarded by television commercials bent on trying to convince us to buy a specific brand of soap then it's only a step of separation away from the processes both during courtship and after a relationship is begun that make us try and change to fit better with who we're with.

The argument will eventually boil down to one of drawing the line between the accepted adult consent of an individual and the parameters someone else would try to use to deem their decisions (and mindset) unsound...and, for better or worse, psychology is an expansive gray area.


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 6:08:18 PM   
MidMichCowboy


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This is a great post from a wise lady. This is probably why I'm not having a lot of success at relationships right now.
There is a reason I don't do public and I'm not going to be poly. I lost myself in the past and became an actor on a stage.
I suppose many were surprised when I quit, but I did it to find myself once again.
Now, I won't change for anyone. I know who I am and I'm OK with it.
I know my boundaries and my values.
Never again will I lose myself to please another.

Great post and a lesson for many. There is good reason why Cat and Steele are two of my favorite posters.

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 6:39:08 PM   
ACryFromTheSoul


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quote:

individual
quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

This spins off Steel's "Martyr" post as it is something I've been thinking about lately--and its not so much in the "looking for someone" category as its in the "changing for someone" category.

Example: A few years ago I was in communication with a submissive that had been trained to serve a "Victorian Mistress"-- as a slavebutler--separate room, specific "attendant" responsibilities, no sex, all service, punishment with a silver handled antique brush--now the service part of it really appealed to Me--however, over time, I found Myself changing to his training rather than either rejecting him as not suitable or speaking up--well needless to say I came to My senses, as it became a very rigid tug of war---

Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?



There is a very fine line.

My ex was poly, and I can remember looking at his wife/slave one day and thinking that while she was a really sweet/wonderful individual ... she was spineless and it repulsed me. Yet three years later I found myself to be a reflection of exactly what had repulsed me in her... I too had lost my voice, my ability to voice my opinions and became a shell of the person I was (for a multitude of reasons) and I became what is often referred to as a "doormat". And plainly speaking I lost respect for myself, especially since I have always been a very vocal, opinionated, independent woman and my actions/lack of actions represented everything that I was not.

While there were many changes in the relationship that happened for the better, this was one of many changes that happened for the worst.

And, this biggest fear of getting back into a m/s relationship... of having that happen again where I lose the person I am/ and my own personal respect for myself.

hugs



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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 7:17:41 PM   
pyroaquatic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

This spins off Steel's "Martyr" post as it is something I've been thinking about lately--and its not so much in the "looking for someone" category as its in the "changing for someone" category.
 
Example: A few years ago I was in communication with a submissive that had been trained to serve a "Victorian Mistress"-- as a slavebutler--separate room, specific "attendant" responsibilities, no sex, all service, punishment with a silver handled antique brush--now the service part of it really appealed to Me--however, over time, I found Myself changing to his training rather than either rejecting him as not suitable or speaking up--well needless to say I came to My senses, as it became a very rigid tug of war---
 
Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?


This reminds me of the Borg from Star Trek. They assimilate, move on, assimilate..... so on and so forth. I am very sure few people don't know what I am speaking of.

I tend to believe that every person is the sum of everyone else they have met in their lifetime, and then something extra because the whole tends to be greater than the parts involved.

You and your butlerslave could not meld correctly and resulted in negative consequence. I do not believe that one persona can disappear into another. Instead I postulate that you and the butlerslave melded into each other and walked away with a rather bad experience that will let you be wary of the next time it happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

She was into humiliation. Being drawn on, talked dirty to, and treated like a crap. It was something that I wasn't into but I did it because of the pay off and how she reacted to it and eventually I found myself becoming a much more nagative person I was becoming okay with being Mean and I didn't like that. I had to end it because it wasn't healthy for me and as such I did not like the person I was becoming.

To this day I bet she is confused about why it ended the way it did because she could not understand why I was so good at it and yet did not like doing it.

So to a degree I can see where people form to be a better match for a partner and how at times that can be a negative.

Steel

I bet it changed both your expectations of a relationship (any not just D/s) and hers. It is also interesting that you were becoming foreign to your self. You were changing TOO fast. "behavioral cheating"?
puzzle pieces fitting together in intricate patterns.
Isn't duality fun?


I often wonder if there is a certain point in which we stop melding and morphing, shifting and changing into other people and as we begin to decline in our mortality we morph into our true selves, and then we morph into......


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 9:04:01 PM   
catize


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While I agree that anyone who enters my sphere of existence affects me and I affect them; I think the OP is addressing much more specific changes that fall under the category of whether or not we are true to ourselves.  
I have observed that there are many dominants that declare an intention to transform me (or any submissive) before they have even met me. They use words such as ‘mold’,, ‘correct’,’ shape’, ‘remake’, ‘rewire’ as if a submissive person does not, and worse, should not have standards or core values of their own. 
To me, it is about the degree of expected adaptations, behavioral as well as psychological. On one hand there is malleable, but beyond that there is being so fluid that it will make the real person, the <<ME>> of me, evaporate into thin air.
There are areas where I will always stand firm and I make no apologies for doing so.  I know who I am and I’m pretty okay with myself.
 
As an aside, one of the scariest people I ever met was a female co-worker, who, through out her time there, worked in various capacities as support staff.  If she shared a desk or office with another person, she would decorate her desk/office exactly like the other person did.  The moment she was no longer working with them, all those trinkets would disappear and she would re-decorate in mimicry of her current office mate.  No one understood my visceral distrust of her or why she made my skin crawl.  It was as if she could only be real by becoming like someone else.

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 9:16:45 PM   
CatdeMedici


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OK That mimicry thing is really creepy!
 

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/25/2009 9:19:49 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?


when i engage with people relationship wise be it platonic or carnal we will rub off on one another. smaller nuances such as quips, taste in music, food, etc. may trade hands. however, in regard to an emotional relationship where a power exchange occurs i do have boundaries. i believe on the submissive end it can be much more difficult to assert them if you're unsure of yourself. i too have heard the statements about molding and helping me discover my true self. the ridiculousness of their insinuations is the fact they believe they have more insight than my 37 years, but i usually ignore those remarks for the most part.

i see myself as a vessel. i am the gatekeeper and i determine what goes in and what is taken away. a person can only do what i permit and if i allow myself to be turned into something that i'm not i only have myself to blame. the caveat is why someone would wish to do this, but then the other question is why you'd allow it to happen? i think sometimes we don't realize what's taking place and we're trying to appease the other party. i don't mind the latter, but i can only contort so much before i become unrecognizable. knowing when to say when is more important than the yes we exercise when it begins.

porcelaine


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 2:14:33 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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When changing yourself for someone means you are being less and less authentically you, it is a negative thing. There are many, however, who flourish under such circumstances and become more and more themselves.

Master Fire


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 4:36:51 AM   
ChasingOblivion


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My problem is that I rarely know how much is too much, or at least how much others would perceive as too much.
In terms of my core identity, I am who I am. I have my own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc. In a D/s relationship, there is very little I won't do, provided the trust is there, but I won't be told what to think, believe, or feel because who I am as a human being trumps all else in my mind.
As for all the other stuff; clothing, food, activities, music etc, I'm very flexible and I adapt easily. I have often been accused of being too agreeable or letting people take advantage of me, but the truth is I'm just a very easy-going person who learned a long time ago to not bother sweating the small stuff.
In my life, I've been fortunate enough to have a variety of experiences, and have lived everywhere from relative luxury in upper-middle class suburbs to homelessness. I have both dined in five star restaurants and gone hungry for weeks, and although nothing can equal the sublime pleasure of a 6 head shower with great water pressure after a long hard day, I spent nearly three months with no indoor plumbing and still managed to survive.
As they say, "adapt or die." There are a very few things I actually need to survive and the rest is just icing on the cake. Does that mean that I morph too much or too easily? Maybe. But overall I think I'm a lot happier than most of the people I know.



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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 7:04:54 AM   
LATEXBABY64


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i can see that you can get into that i will do anything to please you a lot of subs have done that when comming into the lifestyle or slaves I think you have to really really becareful cause you really could end up doing a lot more harm to yourself then good

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 7:23:01 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChasingOblivion

My problem is that I rarely know how much is too much, or at least how much others would perceive as too much.
In terms of my core identity, I am who I am. I have my own thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc. In a D/s relationship, there is very little I won't do, provided the trust is there, but I won't be told what to think, believe, or feel because who I am as a human being trumps all else in my mind.
As for all the other stuff; clothing, food, activities, music etc, I'm very flexible and I adapt easily. I have often been accused of being too agreeable or letting people take advantage of me, but the truth is I'm just a very easy-going person who learned a long time ago to not bother sweating the small stuff.
In my life, I've been fortunate enough to have a variety of experiences, and have lived everywhere from relative luxury in upper-middle class suburbs to homelessness. I have both dined in five star restaurants and gone hungry for weeks, and although nothing can equal the sublime pleasure of a 6 head shower with great water pressure after a long hard day, I spent nearly three months with no indoor plumbing and still managed to survive.
As they say, "adapt or die." There are a very few things I actually need to survive and the rest is just icing on the cake. Does that mean that I morph too much or too easily? Maybe. But overall I think I'm a lot happier than most of the people I know.



Not at all. What you've described is more a physical adaptation. You've not changed the core of who you are.

For myself, there are some things I know will not change. There are qualities in other people I will not allow into my life, regardless of how pretty a package they present to sell it.

There are activities, that somewhat squick me in thought, that I have not tried. I make no promises. If someone were to approach me and tell me that they LIVED for heavy humiliation and physical abuse but were cool with serving, I would know they were not for me. I've never done heavy humiliation combined with alot of hitting, etc in that context. It is not something that has ever interested me. While I am not completely closed to the idea, I doubt it would become the highlight of my life. I am however, very strongly focused on the power exchange and service aspects.That will not change. To try and change my wants and needs just so that I could have that cute maso, with the love of humiliation and getting knocked around, for her to grudgingly serve........bad idea.

I also wouldn't want someone to try and change their core self, wants, needs and desires, just to try and be what I want, forsaking themselves. I would rather stay friends with them, support them, and cheer for them when they find a better fit.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 6/26/2009 7:24:13 AM >


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 7:52:13 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

When changing yourself for someone means you are being less and less authentically you, it is a negative thing. There are many, however, who flourish under such circumstances and become more and more themselves.

Master Fire

Nicely said Master FireMaam.    As I was reading through this, I thought to myself "but what about changes that are good?  what if the guidance you...as a submissive...say you crave and need comes across as too strict/too harsh/too much of a change?"  If the changes that end up happening are good and yes, you end up as a different person but a better one, the one you say you wanted to be, then do you still decry the partner for "changing" you?
Read through the submissive profiles.  See how many state that they want someone to guide them, to own them, to make them theirs...and yet note how many of them also state that they will put up a fight.  Now see how many state that they want a dominant to guide them, enhance them, rule them. complement them, build them up but NOT change them.  Tell me that there is not a fine, FINE line between guiding, enhancing, ruling, complementing, building someone and what amounts to changing someone.

I've been accused of trying to change someone.  It is a hard thing to deal with because no matter how you show some people that you are doing what they asked for and that it is their own bucking that is creating a problem, the pervasive feeling is that you are wrong.  Now add in that same person telling you, conversely, that if you just "knew" how to handle this better, it would all be right.

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 8:35:53 AM   
maia09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

This spins off Steel's "Martyr" post as it is something I've been thinking about lately--and its not so much in the "looking for someone" category as its in the "changing for someone" category.
 
Example: A few years ago I was in communication with a submissive that had been trained to serve a "Victorian Mistress"-- as a slavebutler--separate room, specific "attendant" responsibilities, no sex, all service, punishment with a silver handled antique brush--now the service part of it really appealed to Me--however, over time, I found Myself changing to his training rather than either rejecting him as not suitable or speaking up--well needless to say I came to My senses, as it became a very rigid tug of war---
 
Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?


Quite thought provoking.  i find it very interesting that there seems to an abundance of subs and slaves who claim a willingness, a desire to serve the D, but who have their own agenda going on, based on doing what's familiar to them, or getting what they want from the D. i'm not pointing the finger at anyone, as i was certainly one of those subs. Unfortunately i didn't realize what i was doing until very recently. i'm also not saying that a s type has no right to their own desires. The key is consciousness of these desires and communication of them rather than attempting to manipulate the D type into fulfilling them.

i could see how easy it could be to fall prey to the "demands" of a sub who is already "trained".  But the reality is quite the opposite.  Those who claim to be very well trained are probably the most difficult to re-train because they have their own agenda and believe themself to be very right in seeking to fulfill it. Additionally, from my own experience, i fell into the trap of thinking there is some model that i was supposed to mimic and one that He was to imitate as well. Through much pain and struggle i've finally been able to see how foolish that was and how it defeated the very nature of D/s. One cannot dominate another who is not willing to let go of their own agenda.


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 8:41:41 AM   
Andalusite


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Some of my previous partners have helped to transform me in positive ways, even though they weren't dominant. They helped me become more outgoing, more confident in my own skin, to explore new hobbies and music, to make new friends, to become more patient, etc. I've done similar things for them, whether or not we had a D/s dynamic, and helped a couple of them overcome phobias. As far as morphing goes, it's not that I have no core identity, but that I'm very flexible and can *enjoy* going in a lot of different directions. I wound up as a slave in my current relationship, but depending on who I was dating, I was open to being a submissive, a bottom, a switch, a top, or a Domme. It's not that I'd change who I was to make them happy, or violate the core of my being, rather that it's an interaction with the other person, and they draw out different things from me.

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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 10:59:01 AM   
IronBear


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FR

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

Example: A few years ago I was in communication with a submissive that had been trained to serve a "Victorian Mistress"-- as a slavebutler--separate room, specific "attendant" responsibilities, no sex, all service, punishment with a silver handled antique brush--now the service part of it really appealed to Me--however, over time, I found Myself changing to his training rather than either rejecting him as not suitable or speaking up--well needless to say I came to My senses, as it became a very rigid tug of war---

Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?


In a word YES.

It's not so different to an actor and especially one involved in long term TV series where their own character can be coloured by the character they are portraying and in extreme cases the character can take over. There are number of such cases even with Film Stars. Oner need regular reality checks.


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RE: Morphing too much - 6/26/2009 11:16:32 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maia09

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

This spins off Steel's "Martyr" post as it is something I've been thinking about lately--and its not so much in the "looking for someone" category as its in the "changing for someone" category.
 
Example: A few years ago I was in communication with a submissive that had been trained to serve a "Victorian Mistress"-- as a slavebutler--separate room, specific "attendant" responsibilities, no sex, all service, punishment with a silver handled antique brush--now the service part of it really appealed to Me--however, over time, I found Myself changing to his training rather than either rejecting him as not suitable or speaking up--well needless to say I came to My senses, as it became a very rigid tug of war---
 
Its a fine line between melding and disappearing into "the other person's personna" ---yes? or no?


Quite thought provoking.  i find it very interesting that there seems to an abundance of subs and slaves who claim a willingness, a desire to serve the D, but who have their own agenda going on, based on doing what's familiar to them, or getting what they want from the D. i'm not pointing the finger at anyone, as i was certainly one of those subs. Unfortunately i didn't realize what i was doing until very recently. i'm also not saying that a s type has no right to their own desires. The key is consciousness of these desires and communication of them rather than attempting to manipulate the D type into fulfilling them.

i could see how easy it could be to fall prey to the "demands" of a sub who is already "trained".  But the reality is quite the opposite.  Those who claim to be very well trained are probably the most difficult to re-train because they have their own agenda and believe themself to be very right in seeking to fulfill it. Additionally, from my own experience, i fell into the trap of thinking there is some model that i was supposed to mimic and one that He was to imitate as well. Through much pain and struggle i've finally been able to see how foolish that was and how it defeated the very nature of D/s. One cannot dominate another who is not willing to let go of their own agenda.

Nicely said maia...and it reminded me of something else I wanted to add to my own post when I re-read it just now but could not as it is long past the time for editing.
There is nothing wrong with a submissive having an agenda.  There is nothing wrong with a submissive having a viewpoint of her own.  But when a submissive enters into a relationship with a dominant that is anything more than just play, whether it be a full-blown D/s dynamic or not, she is entering into a dynamic different than that which she shares with her vanilla friends/dates or her dominant play partners.  Part of that dynamic means submission which means yielding of their will to that of the dominant.  Now the level of yielding will depend on the trust she has in the dominant, what she feels for the dominant and where they both decide they are comfortable.  But yielding to only what she wants to yield to anyway and/or to what is easy and/or to what only suits her agenda and her plan is not really allowing the dominant to dominate, is it?  It is not giving him true control, it is giving him control over that which you may not care to be bothered with anyway.
Again, change does not equate to creating a mindless puppet, nor does it mean a loss of one's self.  But it is my belief...and note the caveat through the use of the word "my"...that many submissives want to be the ones to set in stone not only the plan but how to get there and then, once set, the dominant can have his way.  But is it his way...his plan...his dominance... if he is following her plan only, in the manner she states?

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 6/26/2009 12:11:24 PM >

(in reply to maia09)
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