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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 5:52:36 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

then it's probably not a friendship


Yes well, coming from you, that about says everything.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 5:54:00 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

then it's probably not a friendship


Yes well, coming from you, that about says everything.
 
the.dark.

Well that wasn't very nice or supportive, now was it?
Says a lot about you too, btw.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:08:41 AM   
SlyStone


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Status: offline 		That people are grieving and wanting to be able to grieve without being run down - you may never understand the impact that some famous person has on the life of someone whom they have never met - BUT it happens.  And if you can't be kind to Jackson - at least be kind to people who do have specific feelings for the man, or have had a sense of their own mortality highlighted because of his death




I could care less about this subject but I have to say that I don't understand that point of view. I mean if he was alive she or anyone else would be entitled to their opinion and based on certain facts there is good reason to believe that if nothing else he was obsessed with children, an adult even sleeping in the same bed with others children is  at least unconscionable, and I doubt that anyone would defend him if he wasn't a celebrity. 

There seems to be two issues here, the veil of celebrity through which people see what they want to see and the  death of celebrity when people mourn for a stranger as if he or she  was a kindred soul.

When a public figure dies it is quite different from when a personal friend dies because no one here knew this man, only an image in their minds, and we each are entitled to our own image. People who are so effected by this death so as to be shaken to their core are in need of serious help, and you are right they won't get that here.

And remember that death is not necessarily redemptive, if you felt a certain way about someone when they are alive, then why feel different when they are dead? 


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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:09:40 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

But what you are failing to realise or have any empathy with - is that people who consider you as friends are being hurt by your 'opinions'. That some of these people are in no way able to deal with such grief that they have to go through in this as well as their own traumas and that you as individuals have a responsibility to those that call you friend to be there for them - and by being as adamant as you are that you have a RIGHT to be negative, that you have a RIGHT to take an opposite stance - you are hurting people or persons who considered you a friend or confidant. That people are grieving and wanting to be able to grieve without being run down - you may never understand the impact that some famous person has on the life of someone whom they have never met - BUT it happens. And if you can't be kind to Jackson - at least be kind to people who do have specific feelings for the man, or have had a sense of their own mortality highlighted because of his death.
Geez...i wish this would have been addressed with me personally. If they honor me with their friendship then they must also honor the fact that i would never intentionally hurt them. To those that feel this way...please accept my most sincere apologies.

And you are correct that i did not recognize the level of grief you are describing...addressed to a musician they have, in all likelyhood, have never met.
Perhaps they may need to look within themselves, and ask what the grief is REALLY for. The end of an era, a loss of a piece of their childhood, etc. The reasons are there and are real... But it can be unfair to expect all others to share in those feelings when we are not aware they exist in the first place.
I do thank you for stating this as you have, Dark. It was an eye opener that i needed. I can recall the tears of my former mother-in-law when John Kennedy Jr was killed in a plane crash. I really did not understand until she said "I raised that boy!!"


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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:20:28 AM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

But what you are failing to realise or have any empathy with - is that people who consider you as friends are being hurt by your 'opinions'. That some of these people are in no way able to deal with such grief that they have to go through in this as well as their own traumas and that you as individuals have a responsibility to those that call you friend to be there for them - and by being as adamant as you are that you have a RIGHT to be negative, that you have a RIGHT to take an opposite stance - you are hurting people or persons who considered you a friend or confidant. That people are grieving and wanting to be able to grieve without being run down - you may never understand the impact that some famous person has on the life of someone whom they have never met - BUT it happens. And if you can't be kind to Jackson - at least be kind to people who do have specific feelings for the man, or have had a sense of their own mortality highlighted because of his death.
Geez...i wish this would have been addressed with me personally. If they honor me with their friendship then they must also honor the fact that i would never intentionally hurt them. To those that feel this way...please accept my most sincere apologies.

And you are correct that i did not recognize the level of grief you are describing...addressed to a musician they have, in all likelyhood, have never met.
Perhaps they may need to look within themselves, and ask what the grief is REALLY for. The end of an era, a loss of a piece of their childhood, etc. The reasons are there and are real... But it can be unfair to expect all others to share in those feelings when we are not aware they exist in the first place.
I do thank you for stating this as you have, Dark. It was an eye opener that i needed. I can recall the tears of my former mother-in-law when John Kennedy Jr was killed in a plane crash. I really did not understand until she said "I raised that boy!!"



Based on this...lucky you. You still have a chance at friendship with dark.
Alas. I have no chance of a dark friendship as evidenced by her selective use of taking my words out of context.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:25:36 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

But what you are failing to realise or have any empathy with - is that people who consider you as friends are being hurt by your 'opinions'. That some of these people are in no way able to deal with such grief that they have to go through in this as well as their own traumas and that you as individuals have a responsibility to those that call you friend to be there for them - and by being as adamant as you are that you have a RIGHT to be negative, that you have a RIGHT to take an opposite stance - you are hurting people or persons who considered you a friend or confidant. That people are grieving and wanting to be able to grieve without being run down - you may never understand the impact that some famous person has on the life of someone whom they have never met - BUT it happens. And if you can't be kind to Jackson - at least be kind to people who do have specific feelings for the man, or have had a sense of their own mortality highlighted because of his death.
Geez...i wish this would have been addressed with me personally. If they honor me with their friendship then they must also honor the fact that i would never intentionally hurt them. To those that feel this way...please accept my most sincere apologies.

And you are correct that i did not recognize the level of grief you are describing...addressed to a musician they have, in all likelyhood, have never met.
Perhaps they may need to look within themselves, and ask what the grief is REALLY for. The end of an era, a loss of a piece of their childhood, etc. The reasons are there and are real... But it can be unfair to expect all others to share in those feelings when we are not aware they exist in the first place.
I do thank you for stating this as you have, Dark. It was an eye opener that i needed. I can recall the tears of my former mother-in-law when John Kennedy Jr was killed in a plane crash. I really did not understand until she said "I raised that boy!!"



Based on this...lucky you. You still have a chance at friendship with dark.
Alas. I have no chance of a dark friendship as evidenced by her selective use of taking my words out of context.
Aileen...i was not kissing ass here. I was stating that i failed to see what others were going through.




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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:26:11 AM   
LaTigresse


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All I can say to the various passionate posts is "Oh good grief!!"

I've never understood why people that do stellar things in the entertainment business are more akin to god than those that do stellar things in other fields.

I've never understood why it is acceptable to say less than flattering things about a freaky person when they are alive, but BAM, they die, probably helped along by their own vices, and they become saintlike.

It is too bad that the music/entertainment industry lost a genius. It really is. However, the reality is that his vices were destroying him and his talent for years. It is a fact. He was no saint. If anything a good example for NOT putting children on that path. His life was tragically fucked up. I am not sure he ever had a chance at a happy life. How sad it is that we benefited from his loss of a happy life. Because THAT is what it really is. He sacrificed his life, a chance at peace and joy, to give us an eternity of landmark musical breakthroughs, even if we do not like his music specifically.

So, given that truth, is the sainthood we project upon them based upon our own deep seated guilt? Or is it something much more shallow? An envy of the opportunity he had and threw away? An envy of his material wealth while we sit in our homes that will never be like his mansions?

I don't know. I don't get our obsession with fame and famous people. Our deep visceral reactions, both for and against.

Personally, I can admire the positive things about a person while realistically acknowledging their human faults. No different than when I do look in the mirror at myself. Though I see their good traits more than I see my own. I AM more critical of myself. I hold myself to high standards, push myself to be better. Maybe that is some of the negative also. We see the opportunity people like this celebrity have and throw away. We see the blatant waste and like to think we would be less selfish and do more with that power and wealth. Some of us would, many of us would not.

The complex nature of our feelings for celebrities is intriguing. I have met a few and not one is better or worse than the best or worst non celebrity I've known. Only more out of touch with reality as most of us live it. Then again, I've met A LOT of non celebrities that are pretty out of touch with reality also.

I don't really care one way or another how anyone perceives, or voices that perception, of another. Then again, I have a truely warped sense of humour and a total disregard for the whole "death thing"  If y'all thought Aileen's joke was bad, I won't even tell you the Lego joke I got from a long time MJ fan yesterday morning. For everyone that has their boxers/panties wadded, keep in mind, different people deal with loss and grief in very different ways. Humour is one. Just because a person is not behaving in a way that is YOUR way, acceptable to you based upon your coping, does not make their way wrong.

If you feel better hopping upon a pedestal and looking down your nose, have a party. Whether you like it or not, it doesn't shine a flattering light on you either. Personally, I just kinda hang out somewhere in the middle. Sad, but not the end of the world. It is what it is.

Like grandpa always said, before he died, "LeeAnn, one thing is for sure, none of us are going to get out of this alive." Or something similar, depending on how many double shooters he'd had while we were philosophising.

Y'all just really need to chill. Life is going to go on, until we all die. 

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:31:16 AM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Darcy I understand what you are saying but I think you are being unfair to the two people you adress in your post. If my mother died  would grieve for her but I would not look for solace online unless it was in privae [via email e.t.c.] I would certainly not posit my emotions on a message board. In this case it is a celebrity who died, a talented one and a man who became in one form or  another a cultural icon. It is absolutely fine that people feel grief for his death but they cannot expect others to share in it nor should they have to tailor their emotions in this forum. If you were face to face having a conversation and were visibly distressed then people would be expected to modify their language, but this isn't a private discusssion it is a public forum discussing a man who had as many detractors as he had admirers. When people discuss the army and our current wars often it will upset me but that does not mean that I have any right to dictate what people can and can't say I can argue against them but not ask them to stop to preserve my personal feelings. I am sorry you are feeling upset and hurt over this man's death and I do feeel sympathy for you, but i also feel sympathy for the people you slated for having an opinion of this man that was different to yours.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:32:11 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

I could care less about this subject but I have to say that I don't understand that point of view.


Understanding is not needed. Acceptance is.


quote:



When a public figure dies it is quite different from when a personal friend dies because no one here knew this man, only an image in their minds, and we each are entitled to our own image. People who are so effected by this death so as to be shaken to their core are in need of serious help, and you are right they won't get that here.


I do not agree that those grieving are in need of professional help. As i stated before, the grief is different from the feelings of loss with a family member, but are still real.

quote:

And remember that death is not necessarily redemptive, if you felt a certain way about someone when they are alive, then why feel different when they are dead?


this is certainly true. However (and i speak only for myself here) if stating my feelings about the one lost causes more pain to others, it is time to keep my mouth shut.


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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:36:23 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		On the flip side.......if I have an issue that I personally feel strongly/sensitive about, and I see a thread that I KNOW will have opinions that would upset me............I will not read them and I certainly will not argue/discuss that issue in that thread.

The fact that it upsets me, is MY RESPONSIBILITY. No one owes it to me to agree or write only words that will be agreeable to me.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 6/27/2009 6:37:20 AM >

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:40:57 AM   
SlyStone


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Understanding is not needed. Acceptance is.



Your previous posts to this thread make that statment rather laughable but I accept this one, ok?





I do not agree that those grieving are in need of professional help. As i stated before, the grief is different from the feelings of loss with a family member, but are still real.


I stated that people for whom this death affected them to their very core are in need of help, that is quite different from saying that people who are grieving need professional help.



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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:45:47 AM   
sleazybutterfly


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Status: offline 		I will honestly say, I do not grieve for MJ, atleast not in the way I would for someone I know personally, or a family member.  I grieve for him as a human being, someone that walked this earth and was a child of God.  I feel when someone dies, I think about the family, I have emotions for the children, and I think it's sad anytime a person is lost to what seems like meaningless cause.  I think it's a sad thing that someone that I enjoyed throughout my life has now passed, it makes me realize that everyone as far as celebrity goes I admire is getting older also.  I am talking about the ones I miss that are already gone like Jimmy Stewart...and the ones that I will probably lose in the next few years like Jane Russell. 

I grieve when I lose someone I love, a friend, a family member..when someone like this dies, I am sad as I would be when any loss occurs.  We all do deal with grief in a different way, I personally don't like to cry, I prefer to stay strong until everything is over and the casket is in the ground.  I then take a few days and lose it totally, that's how I roll (so to speak).  Will I cry over MJ?  I really have no idea..if I do, it will probably be because of my memories, things that have happened that I connect with a song of his, or just the connection I feel with others as they are reacting. 

I guess I just don't see the cause in things such as being happy someone is dead, or taken away from their children, hoping someone is burning in hell, dancing on graves..etc.  It just really serves no purpose for anyone but whom is stating it and that's to make them feel good about themselves or their position.  I would say this about pretty much anyone I can think of, it has nothing to do with the celebrity motif.  It takes me to when the protesters were at the funerals of people that were killed, from gay people, to service men, to an abortion doctor.  There are lines you just don't cross, that's my belief.  I am sure others have theirs and that's just how it is.

I don't hate anyone, I don't think people are horrid, I just believe things can be handled in a different way.  It's like my momma used to say "If you can't say anything nice, just keep your yap shut.".

edited to clarify a statement. :)


< Message edited by sleazybutterfly -- 6/27/2009 6:48:27 AM >

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:48:47 AM   
HatesParisHilton


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Status: offline 		I'd rather see Sir Michael" get this attention than some Footy Meathead rapist getting off with a slap on the wrist, then having a heart attack and getting ten times the reaction and probably a parade down mainstreet here in Oz.

As for "And remember that death is not necessarily redemptive, if you felt a certain way about someone when they are alive, then why feel different when they are dead? "

I completely agree.  There are people whom I will dance a jig with my semi-crippled legs over when they dieso that the world and fellow humans need not suffer their ongoing prescence.  I'm related to a few my blood.  They DON'T want me speaking at their funeral. 

But to be fair, if I was a girl or gay and 25 years older, and we go back to when Richard Burton died, I'd be as distraught as any of the MJ fans on this site, and can relate from that perspective.  Or my Nanna's generation, and hearing - say for example - that Sophia Loren had died (during the 60's).  I'd be all kinds of fucked up.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:49:14 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Your previous posts to this thread make that statment rather laughable but I accept this one, ok?
and why is that? Did i at any time during the course of this thread tell anyone they are wrong to feel as they do? Nope...not that i am aware of. What i did do was show a lack of respect for their grief. 

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 6:57:17 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Well that wasn't very nice or supportive, now was it?
Says a lot about you too, btw.

 
I never have been your 'friend' Aileen nor would I ever want to be.  So being supportive or 'nice' (horrible undescriptive word btw) of you really doesn't fall into line in our relationship.  What that says about me that I do not fall for petty people  nor include in my friend network, those who use humour or ridicule of others as a form of attention seeking.
 
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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 7:01:15 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     What I keep wondering though, is whether this is just an elaborate stunt to sell tickets on his upcoming series of London concerts.  Probably not, but I'm that cynical.


You're close.

It was an elaborate hoax to get out of his $400 million debt.

I know this for a fact as I saw MJ at the Steak and Shake this morning at 3 a.m. eating jalapeno burgers with Elvis.

Of course, I was a little drunk................but I know what I saw.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 7:04:49 AM   
HatesParisHilton


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Status: offline 		No, that was Orson Welles, and Jimmie Dean.  I told you not to scarf grease burgers after white mescal, it makes you see things...

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 7:05:19 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

That people are grieving and wanting to be able to grieve without being run down - you may never understand the impact that some famous person has on the life of someone whom they have never met - BUT it happens.  And if you can't be kind to Jackson - at least be kind to people who do have specific feelings for the man, or have had a sense of their own mortality highlighted because of his death




I could care less about this subject but I have to say that I don't understand that point of view. I mean if he was alive she or anyone else would be entitled to their opinion and based on certain facts there is good reason to believe that if nothing else he was obsessed with children, an adult even sleeping in the same bed with others children is  at least unconscionable, and I doubt that anyone would defend him if he wasn't a celebrity. 

There seems to be two issues here, the veil of celebrity through which people see what they want to see and the  death of celebrity when people mourn for a stranger as if he or she  was a kindred soul.

When a public figure dies it is quite different from when a personal friend dies because no one here knew this man, only an image in their minds, and we each are entitled to our own image. People who are so effected by this death so as to be shaken to their core are in need of serious help, and you are right they won't get that here.

And remember that death is not necessarily redemptive, if you felt a certain way about someone when they are alive, then why feel different when they are dead? 



No, I agree with you to an extent.  I just also see the 'other side' as it were... but then I am pretty much open minded when it comes to seeing the many facets of things and for me on a personal level, the death of anyone - regardless of whether you know them or not on a personal level - can set triggers off in people depending on their state of mind, memories that they have blahblahblah.
 
I still stand by my original statement, that things like Jacksons death only highlights how sad, lonely humanity really is and that cruelty and judgement (which isn't a bad thing at all IMO) pretty much are defense mechanisms.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 7:18:31 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
Geez...i wish this would have been addressed with me personally. If they honor me with their friendship then they must also honor the fact that i would never intentionally hurt them. To those that feel this way...please accept my most sincere apologies.

And you are correct that i did not recognize the level of grief you are describing...addressed to a musician they have, in all likelyhood, have never met.
Perhaps they may need to look within themselves, and ask what the grief is REALLY for. The end of an era, a loss of a piece of their childhood, etc. The reasons are there and are real... But it can be unfair to expect all others to share in those feelings when we are not aware they exist in the first place.
I do thank you for stating this as you have, Dark. It was an eye opener that i needed. I can recall the tears of my former mother-in-law when John Kennedy Jr was killed in a plane crash. I really did not understand until she said "I raised that boy!!"



Holly, I know that you know me well enough to know that the reason I posted the other stuff is because I am far enough outside the box of grief enough to be be able to voice that which people who are in the centre of their grief are unable to at this time.  I am not saying I am 100% spot on, just giving another viewpoint to consider.
I don't get the whole outpouring for Jackson - I was the same when Diana died - I didn't get that either.  In my lifetime, those are the only two celeb deaths that have occured that I remember.  I'm too young for Lennon or Elvis, and being a brit, the whole Kenedy thing wasn't as big here as it was over there.  The only death that I can relate to was when Freddie Mercury died because my dad was a huge fan - but even that was an expected death.  I am guessing that the sudden announcement had a bigger part to play than the death itself in this situation.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Michael Jackson taken to the hospital - 6/27/2009 7:20:34 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Alas. I have no chance of a dark friendship as evidenced by her selective use of taking my words out of context.


Oh well.  You'll live.
 
the.dark.

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