RE: Now... is it just me...? (Full Version)

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Belittled -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:24:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i didnt say you were inferior. that never once crossed my mind. i did say you two were not equal. and that is the crux. you admitted to putting her needs/wants before your own. in that way, you please yourself, you fullfill your own wants and needs. but, hers do come first. you have placed her above yourself...

you two are not equal, no matter how you try to dress it up.


Well, in the event of inequality, chances are one is superior and one is inferior, right? Since we're speaking of general equality, and not similarities vs. differences. My submissive's and my desires are different, and mine are held with more regard because this is what we both want. Where he sacrifices, I nurture. We both give in equally into the power exchange for the relationship to be balanced. I do not demand what he cannot give. While our desires are different, he is my equal. For now. :D



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:27:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Belittled

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i didnt say you were inferior. that never once crossed my mind. i did say you two were not equal. and that is the crux. you admitted to putting her needs/wants before your own. in that way, you please yourself, you fullfill your own wants and needs. but, hers do come first. you have placed her above yourself...

you two are not equal, no matter how you try to dress it up.


Well, in the event of inequality, chances are one is superior and one is inferior, right? Since we're speaking of general equality, and not similarities vs. differences. My submissive's and my desires are different, and mine are held with more regard because this is what we both want. Where he sacrifices, I nurture. We both give in equally into the power exchange for the relationship to be balanced. I do not demand what he cannot give. While our desires are different, he is my equal. For now. :D


thats like saying a king is equal to a peasant. again, the act of submitting is giving in to another power, a greater authority. if this doesnt fit your dynamic, then, its not submission, in my opinion.



Belittled -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:36:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

thats like saying a king is equal to a peasant. again, the act of submitting is giving in to another power, a greater authority. if this doesnt fit your dynamic, then, its not submission, in my opinion.



It's not. The king is superior to the peasant. The peasant can't say, "I quit this, I'm your equal" because in social hierarchy, he's not. The peasant ISN'T submitting to the king, he is inferior to him, which is why they are not equal. With me and mine, he is my equal in every way, except I own his entire being, because he's given it to me.

Also, I recognize how superiority and inferiority could be picked on. They are subjective terms, and we can strip and poke at what exactly is superior about the king vs the peasant, I am speaking in general social status terms.



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:46:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Belittled

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

thats like saying a king is equal to a peasant. again, the act of submitting is giving in to another power, a greater authority. if this doesnt fit your dynamic, then, its not submission, in my opinion.



It's not. The king is superior to the peasant. The peasant can't say, "I quit this, I'm your equal" because in social hierarchy, he's not. The peasant ISN'T submitting to the king, he is inferior to him, which is why they are not equal. With me and mine, he is my equal in every way, except I own his entire being, because he's given it to me.

Also, I recognize how superiority and inferiority could be picked on. They are subjective terms, and we can strip and poke at what exactly is superior about the king vs the peasant, I am speaking in general social status terms.


no, just like a submissive or a slave, the peasant can move. he can walk away saying... fuck this shit... then what? the king, depending on the country, could do little about the peasants desire to serve him. maybe lock him up in jail, maybe kill him, but the desire to be pleasing is gone.

you also posted this

quote:


My submissive's and my desires are different, and mine are held with more regard because this is what we both want. Where he sacrifices, I nurture. We both give in equally into the power exchange for the relationship to be balanced. I do not demand what he cannot give. While our desires are different, he is my equal. For now. :D



held with more regard... exactly. yours are more inportant that his, as you both state.

sacrifice and nurture... again... very true.

Master would never demand i give more than i am capable of, thats just smart ownership... note.. i said ownership.

if he places your desires before his own, he is placing you before himself.

its really not that hard a concept to follow. problem is, people begin to think of this as someone being better than someone else, and the other being lesser. its not how that works. there are things Master is far better at than i am. i get the chance every once in a while to watch him at work, and i am amazed at what he can do. he is in awe of my ability to look at a fetal monitor and assess the health based upon the strip spitting out.

every relationship is a give and take. a submissive looks towards their owners wants first, then their own. exactly like your relationship. they will all confirm, while they are not less than their Masters/Owners, they are not equal in the dynamic. if i were equal to Master, why would i need him? why would i feel this desire to submit to his will, take care of his home, ease his life and be there when he needs me? there wiould be no desire to please him.



eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:50:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belittled

It's not. The king is superior to the peasant. The peasant can't say, "I quit this, I'm your equal" because in social hierarchy, he's not. The peasant ISN'T submitting to the king, he is inferior to him, which is why they are not equal. With me and mine, he is my equal in every way, except I own his entire being, because he's given it to me.

Also, I recognize how superiority and inferiority could be picked on. They are subjective terms, and we can strip and poke at what exactly is superior about the king vs the peasant, I am speaking in general social status terms.


Equal means the same.

If you and yours have an exception to your "equalness", then, by definition, you are not equal. It doesn't mean that anyone isn't valuable....or that they are inferior. Instead of using those subjective terms that make some people uncomfortable or defensive, use a word like different. Which is the crux of not being equal.


A relationship - or anything for that matter - doesn't have to be derogatory to recognize it's differences. In fact, attempting to level the playing field in a power exchange relationship can unbalance the dynamic and take a beautiful, flawless dance between people who DO know their roles and their place/value and turn it into a chaotic shuffle full of missteps...

~ epona



YoungLust -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:52:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belittled

It's not. The king is superior to the peasant. The peasant can't say, "I quit this, I'm your equal" because in social hierarchy, he's not. The peasant ISN'T submitting to the king, he is inferior to him, which is why they are not equal. With me and mine, he is my equal in every way, except I own his entire being, because he's given it to me.

Also, I recognize how superiority and inferiority could be picked on. They are subjective terms, and we can strip and poke at what exactly is superior about the king vs the peasant, I am speaking in general social status terms.


Equal means the same.

If you and yours have an exception to your "equalness", then, by definition, you are not equal. It doesn't mean that anyone isn't valuable....or that they are inferior. Instead of using those subjective terms that make some people uncomfortable or defensive, use a word like different. Which is the crux of not being equal.


A relationship - or anything for that matter - doesn't have to be derogatory to recognize it's differences. In fact, attempting to level the playing field in a power exchange relationship can unbalance the dynamic and take a beautiful, flawless dance between people who DO know their roles and their place/value and turn it into a chaotic shuffle full of missteps...

~ epona
Equal means the same in VALUE.

That fact kind of... makes the rest of your post invalid.



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:54:06 PM)

again, by placing her wants ahead of your own, younglust, you are saying her wants have more value than your own. they arent equal.



YoungLust -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:58:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

again, by placing her wants ahead of your own, younglust, you are saying her wants have more value than your own. they arent equal.


...*facepalm*

Whether THAT has any validity or not has no basis on the equality of us as HUMAN BEINGS.

I don't understand what's so hard about that to understand. It's rather frustrating.

Edit: And personally, I don't have many wants. The few I do have are immense priorities and they will be fulfilled for as long as I live or retain my intellectual capacities. I WANT to submit to her whims and desires, therefore we are BOTH getting what we want. Neither of us is left desiring anything.



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 8:59:16 PM)

again, your viewing this from a vanilla standpoint.

lets put it this way

you want to go out, she says no.. what do you do?



YoungLust -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:02:18 PM)

I'm viewing it from a human standpoint.

A free exchange of power has no bearing on equality. I CHOOSE to submit, one does not CHOOSE to be man, woman, white, or black. THAT is the point I have been making the entire time.



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:07:37 PM)

the desire behind what happens with that exchange does.

now, to give you the answers every girl and boy on the boards would give you... you stay home.

She wants to go out and you say no... as Dominant, she can keep on walking out the door to enjoy her evening.

while we may all argue about what is a slave, what is a submissive, what is a kajira... we all have a pretty good understanding of what it means to be a submissive.

equality has no place within that dynamic. trying to change the definitions of things to suit your own purposes wont work here. i can call my cat a dog till im blue in the face... she is still a cat.

im sorry you two cant seem to understand what this all means. being man, woman, black or white has nothing to do with choosing to submit. again, you keep making that argument and its just not washing.

you CHOSE to be submissive, then you CHOSE to submit to the will of another, making you NOT equal to that other. pick up a good dictionary, please. it could help you understand.



ftmyersartist -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:07:49 PM)

nevermind. . .stepping out of the conversation LOL Have a good night all



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:08:10 PM)

You choose to submit, or you are inclined to submit because of the dominant nature of your partner? You choose to submit, or is it in your nature to be submissive to a certain personality? In a relationship, someone must lead and someone must follow. If you wish to look at the two of you in a vacuum, then yes you are both equally human beings.



Belittled -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:25:49 PM)

Yes, it seems we are looking at it from a human perspective. Clearly the miscommunication lies in the definition of equal and in which context we take it.

My submissive and I are equal as humans. With friends, he is my equal. In society, we are equal.
We are not equal in roles. His role, submissive, does not equal (=/=) my role as Dominant.

The term equal is being used however we personally want it to be. In terms of differences, we are not equal. However, I was using it in terms of superiority/inferiority, where it is still merited. We're pretty much talking about the same word with different connotations.



YoungLust -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:28:44 PM)

I don't understand how the underlying point in nearly every post I've made in this topic has gone over so many heads so frequently. There is no broad generalization that makes any sort of person dominant/submissive/inferior/superior.

Woman are equal to men.

Blacks are equal to whites.

That is the point point I've made in this entire topic. I'm talking about on a human level. How are you not getting this?



Maxwell67 -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:38:51 PM)

-qr-
Thought y'all might be interested in this little oath of loalty sworn by the nobility of the court of Aragon to the royalty (i.e. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain).  It is the essence of what I consider to be the willing acceptance of subjugation by equals.

"We, who are as good as you are accept you, who are no better than we are, as our lawful sovereign, so long as you uphold our laws, rights and privileges; and if not, not."

For many involved in M/s relationships, this is probably how it works.  For Myself, well.. I agree with this for the most part, but in the area of "as good as" and "better than" I believe that this may be true overall, but in some areas, I must be better (I accede that in others, they are better also).  I recognize that Mine have equal rights and are giving them up willingly, but the condition under which they give them is that I must be better than they are at least insofar as the decision making process for the household goes.  If they do not think that they will actually benefit more from my guidance than if they were making their own decisions, then they should be looking for a better owner.



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:43:10 PM)

because, the thing you are missing is just as easy

we choose not to be equal. we choose not to see ourselves as equal. we have agreed to submit our will to another, thereby placing ourselves under their control.

every human has a choice. this is one we submissives have made, freely, openly, without force. its called the act of submission. and no matter how you wish to try and redefine it, that definition, for us, wont change. we are all humans. no one is inferior. it was my choice to give control up to Master, making me not his equal on many, many levels. and thats what you are not getting.

so dont blame us if your attempts at redefining the world we live in is failing.



eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:47:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungLust

I don't understand how the underlying point in nearly every post I've made in this topic has gone over so many heads so frequently. There is no broad generalization that makes any sort of person dominant/submissive/inferior/superior.

Woman are equal to men.

Blacks are equal to whites.

That is the point point I've made in this entire topic. I'm talking about on a human level. How are you not getting this?



Because some of us don't think all humans are equal. So we understand the point you are making, we just happen to disagree.

And as Belittled said, i am using the term equal to mean the same. Some humans are stronger, more intelligent, more motivated than others. And one human might be stronger than his/her more intelligent friend - so they are not equal in either regard but are still each valuable human beings and should hopefully strive to excel in the areas at which they are superior.

In a discussion, there are usually differing opinions. That's all this is...a difference of opinions.

~ epona



SteelofUtah -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 9:51:53 PM)

In what way exactly are we NOT equal?

Equal does not mean everyone is treated the same it just means that every person serves an equal purpose.

My slave is not LOWER than me she is simply surrender to me. She gives me her surrender I ger her my Life Discipline.

The Real problem is YOU see things derogatorily and so you judge. Did it ever occur to you to find out WHY people choose to do things that way rather than chastizing them for doing something differently than you do?

Steel



tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 10:01:59 PM)

Master Steel ( and forgive me if you prefer i do not call you that)

i have sent you a message on the other side.

and with that, i am off to bed.

tazzy



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