RE: Now... is it just me...?

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beargonewild -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 5:33:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness There could be no good gorean men because their philosophy is flawed. They are only good in the way you see the world. A philosophy that is so very near to extreme christian, muslim and hinduistic fundamentalists insofar that women are inferior to men is a wrong philosophy in my view of the world. They are a place for people who have adjustment problems to the way the world have developed. By trying to turn history backwards was never reached anything of value. Look to Iran (Persien) at the moment. All human beings are equal. Lenin misinterpreted Marx/Engels in a way that suited his fachistoid mind, to create the avantgarde theory in the book "Was tun" written 1905. There he formulated firstly the wrong way part of the communistic movement started to follow. Because he defined members of the party as the elite. Therefore is everybody who belongs not to the party an enemy. The goreans work with the same idea, some more vocal than others. They all have a strong and sometimes pathological need to belong to a self defined elite. If everybody who do not share your beliefs is your enemy and has to to be killed or converted you are belonging to a group of extremists. In a normal democracy you would be watched by the state. I used kill or converted because they love to throw around war words and metaphors. WOW...I am just amazed at the sheer intolerance and and close mindedness in this post. With an viewpoint like this...no wonder many who are Gorean have such a less than flattering opinion of us kinksters. "Tis a sad sad day indeed sigh

Leonidas -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 5:58:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YoungLust (I'm definitely not trying to troll as much as this will seem like I am, but whatevs) Does the whole Gorean philosophy/lifestyle seem to be like a bdsm version of Scientology? A lifestyle based upon the words of a science fiction author, seemingly ridiculous to any outsider who catches a glimpse of it... So yeah, am I the only one who has drawn a parallel to the two? How will the answer to your question be helpful to you? If 74% of the people in this thread validate you, will you then feel emboldend to act as if you are right, or is the threshhold something lower, say 50%? How many sheep, exactly, does it take to make a large enough herd for you to feel cozy and warm? quote: Orion, I cop to that totally. These are my opinions, based on my experiences. Although I've met pleanty of wonderful, self-realized BDSMers, I've also had the misfortune to know a great many Gor folk who have given me this opinion of this particular subculture of BDSM. So, anyone reading this thread, please take that into account. How many is a great many? I haven't met a great many, and I've identified myself as Gorean for 20 years. Is a great many 3, 5, what? Sorry to hear about your roommate and your 500 bucks. You know, my ex brother in law once ripped me off for 100 times that sum (true story), but hey, he's Jewish, and you know how they are, right? One step away from a dangerous cult, indeed. Hyperbole is the best thing yet invented by man, isn't it? It's alright, you two, you're just being poster children for human frailty. We all are, one way or another. For those of you who haven't been on this site for a long time, threads like this are why there is a Gorean section. In the early days of Collarme they were pretty common, and no more instructive than this one is. They just became venues for posters like the above to strut their... um... stuff. If you want to know how I or men like me live, and what we think, ask a reasonably well thought out question and you might get an answer, time permitting. The Gorean section is a good place for that. I don't regularly read this section unless a thread like this one is pointed out to me.

ishyB -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 10:44:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso What other philosophical school needs that much background reading to summarise? (I'm hardpressed to think of one that can't be summarised in a paragraph). That's the thing. It is a common claim that Goreanism is a philosophy first and foremost. If that's the case, I think it's reasonable to apply the same principles I'd apply to any other philosophy. WHAT IS GOR? THE FUNDAMENTAL BASICS Third and fourth post. quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire Yeah! Darn those "wise and intelligent" Goreans out there... who always remain silent. It's like they don't even exist, or something. What IS the Gorean Lifestyle? What is Gorean Freedom ? Gorean philosophies, lifestyles and so on... Home Stone Morality Moralities Characteristics of a Gorrean Free Man Gorean Moral Values Female Slavery: Fiction vs. Philosophy Presumption Vs Expectation Oaths and Professions: Gorean Men Only, Please A Story Women and Children First Do you believe in equality? Is Integrity a Gorean trait? Normanist or Gorean? Absolutes in Gor? Goreans on Earth What do you feel are the central principles of that philosophy? quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire NO ONE has ever written out or linked to a site that listed these "inspirations" to Norman. Nor has there been any discussion, that I've sever seen, of any specific cultural influnces on "Gorean ethics." Aristotles "Politics" and how it relates to Gor WHAT Gorean philosophy/lifestyle? Philosophy in Fiction master vs. slave morality Nietzsche says... Tyranny of the Soul By Nietzsche

eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 11:34:47 AM)
ishy, Thank you for taking the time to research and post links to many informative threads. Regardless of whether or not people relate to what is discussed in these links, there is obviously plenty of intelligent discussion going on about the philosophies and ideals that are woven into the Gorean books. ~ epona

YoungLust -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 2:30:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel And please speak for yourself, i am not equal to all human beings. I certain am not and never have wished to be equal to a Man as i am a woman. See, and there's the most obvious, delightful flaw in that whole belief system. A human being, man or woman, believing that they are not equal to another based upon their gender, race, age, or any other superficial quality is a societal or self-esteem issue. Man, woman, black, white, old, or young... All of them are equal. There are outliers in every demographic, but the demographics themselves are all equal, and it's idiotic to think otherwise. What sort of logical reason can anyone give for man to be superior to woman? (or vice versa... but that is not the topic at hand). Edit: Wow.. 11 pages.. how do I keep missing the last pages in threads. Oh well.

tazzygirl -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 2:51:46 PM)
easy. Master is superior because i see him that way. tell me.. in your relationship with your... Mistress/gf.. Belittled.. who's wants come first? not needs.. just wants

beargonewild -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 2:54:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YoungLust All of them are equal. There are outliers in every demographic, but the demographics themselves are all equal, and it's idiotic to think otherwise. What sort of logical reason can anyone give for man to be superior to woman? (or vice versa... but that is not the topic at hand). Have you even taken into account... human nature? human desires? human wants? human needs? If a woman so chooses and desires not, as barelynangel stated, "I certain am not and never have wished to be equal to a Man as i am a woman" That is her right as a person and as a human being. I mean....who are we to state she is not logical for wanting this for herself?

oceanwinds -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 3:09:00 PM)
Hi ishy I too wanted to thank you for taking the time to post these links. oceanwinds

eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 3:30:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YoungLust quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel And please speak for yourself, i am not equal to all human beings. I certain am not and never have wished to be equal to a Man as i am a woman. See, and there's the most obvious, delightful flaw in that whole belief system. A human being, man or woman, believing that they are not equal to another based upon their gender, race, age, or any other superficial quality is a societal or self-esteem issue. Man, woman, black, white, old, or young... All of them are equal. There are outliers in every demographic, but the demographics themselves are all equal, and it's idiotic to think otherwise. What sort of logical reason can anyone give for man to be superior to woman? (or vice versa... but that is not the topic at hand). Edit: Wow.. 11 pages.. how do I keep missing the last pages in threads. Oh well. Ok, i do not know if you will engage in a debate about this, but biological differences are not a superficial or societal quality. Something that you are not understanding - one aspect of the Gorean philosophy is that the differences in nature are celebrated and embraced. Men and women are NOT the same...using the terms equal and superior interchangeably makes for dramatic prose, but the terms do have some subtle differences in their meanings. I don't WANT to be equal to a man - i want to be celebrated for my unique qualities as a woman. Physical strength may make some people biologically stronger (physically) than others, just as a high IQ may make some people intellectually superior to others. Would you say that Einstein and Forrest Gump were equal? I wouldn't - but Forrest Gump had different qualities that made him a valuable person. And Forrest Gump didn't try to be something he wasn't....and he was happy. Another thing i have learned about Gorean principles is that people are generally happier if the are NOT trying to be something they aren't...it is people believing that everyone is equal that results in a lot of unfufilled "keeping up with the Jones' "drones who are not only unhappy, but also probably not as good at the facade they build as they would be if they stopped for a moment, assessed what "superior" qualities they personally possessed and then spent their lives devoted to whatever it was they were actually meant, by their nature - or intrinsically - to do. Equality is an illusion. If you want to debate that, i would be happy to. If you just want to call someone an idiot, feel free, but please remember that the study of philosophy, spirituality, the "meaning of life" etc. is, by it's nature, a subjective thing, so what you are projecting with these kinds of comments is an inability to recognize the essence of what you are inquiring about. ~ epona

IronBear -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:20:13 PM)
Thank you epona for that post it has to be for me at least one of the most delightful and concise posts on that subject I have read for many a year.

Maxwell67 -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:26:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eponavet Equality is an illusion. No, dear. Equality is a goal. And a very good one too. Not total equality, mind you, simply an even playing field, and an understanding society that is willing to make some slight sacrifices for those to whom fate has been unkind, simply to see that they have the same freedoms everyone else has. We as a species and this world in which we live together are capable of producing far more than we need.. it is not crime to share that bounty and insure some level of comfort for those who cannot otherwise attain it for themselves. Obviously those who choose to be slaves and wish to be controlled, can give up those freedoms to whomever they wish if they desire. Hopefully they will make a good choices in that department. But anyone who tries then to convince them that they may not then change their minds, reclaim their control and move on if things are bad never deserved to have that control in the first place.

barelynangel -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:35:01 PM)
grins, i just love when people freak out [sm=insane.gif] when i say what i have about being equal lol. When people stop being afraid of not being equal is when people will realize the goal is NOT to be equal to all and hey -- it is okay. Grins, i will say it again, i am NOT, and NEVER WILL BE, and NEVER WANT TO BE equal to Men or any Man individually. I am a woman. psst -- younglust you simply are like a puppet to the screenplay of political correctness. [sm=marionette.gif] angel

eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:35:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 quote: ORIGINAL: eponavet Equality is an illusion. No, dear. Equality is a goal. And a very good one too. Not total equality, mind you, simply an even playing field, and an understanding society that is willing to make some slight sacrifices for those to whom fate has been unkind, simply to see that they have the same freedoms everyone else has. We as a species and this world in which we live together are capable of producing far more than we need.. it is not crime to share that bounty and insure some level of comfort for those who cannot otherwise attain it for themselves. Obviously those who choose to be slaves and wish to be controlled, can give up those freedoms to whomever they wish if they desire. Hopefully they will make a good choices in that department. But anyone who tries then to convince them that they may not then change their minds, reclaim their control and move on if things are bad never deserved to have that control in the first place. Can you please explain to me what "not total equality" is? ~ epona

Maxwell67 -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:49:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eponavet Can you please explain to me what "not total equality" is? ~ epona It is easier to explain total equality.. the thing no one wants. The totally flat and featureless playing field in which there is not variety to celebrate, no goals to attain no way to compete... That sort of equality is no good. Better to return to 'might makes right' where at least there is the potential for growth than that. My own brand of "Not total equality" is providing the most nurturing environment for health, growth of potential and encouragement to use that potential for all up to the age of majority, then, with all participants having a fair shot at the brass ring, letting them work it out from there.

sweetgirlserves -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:54:27 PM)
A good example of what you are talking about, Maxwell67, would be the 'No Child Left Behind' act? ~sgs

Maxwell67 -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 4:58:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves A good example of what you are talking about, Maxwell67, would be the 'No Child Left Behind' act? ~sgs You are joking, right? No. Thank you for playing. Please try again.. A better example might be found in Clinton's book It Takes a Village, however even that is only a direction marker.. as I said.. this is a goal to be achieved. Something to strive toward. It has not been attained. Far from it. But with effort and perseverance, we will get there eventually.

ftmyersartist -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 5:03:06 PM)
So to achieve equality some people who may have a better chance must be treated unequally so that people who have less natural chance have an equal chance? Hmmmm So. . .where is the equality for the people who have a better shot at the brass ring naturally if you even the playing field? I don't believe in discrimination but i also do not believe in leveling a field. Life is unequal. . .nature is unequal. . .it is hubris to think that we can be anything but.

eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 5:04:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 quote: ORIGINAL: eponavet Can you please explain to me what "not total equality" is? ~ epona It is easier to explain total equality.. the thing no one wants. The totally flat and featureless playing field in which there is not variety to celebrate, no goals to attain no way to compete... That sort of equality is no good. Better to return to 'might makes right' where at least there is the potential for growth than that. My own brand of "Not total equality" is providing the most nurturing environment for health, growth of potential and encouragement to use that potential for all up to the age of majority, then, with all participants having a fair shot at the brass ring, letting them work it out from there. And that would be a goal. Or a desire. Or a behavior. But, letting the participants "work it out from there" would most certainly result in a level of inequality based on biological differences if nothing else. So...there is no way for people - if that is the example we are going to use - to be equal. The same. Like the sides of an equilateral triangle. THAT is the point. Equality IS an illusion, and no amount of messing with the petri dish of life will change that. And the things you listed in your previous post - an even playing field and an understanding society - those would also be goals or behaviors. But equality is neither. ~ epona

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 5:08:05 PM)
Very good post epona. I am also glad to see you being engaged in discussion. take care, Orion

eponavet -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/30/2009 5:15:25 PM)
Thank you Master IronBear and Master Orion....it's nice to be back. [:)] ~ epona

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