RE: are we all "equal"? (Full Version)

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GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 9:49:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alanshoreisgod




Maybe...just maybe that many of these people who are writing from a perspective of their own experiences they are personally in? It also may be that living  

Seems to me that many are grossly misinterpreting the fact that one who is relating how things are is simply relating how it works for them


From personal experience comes personal response
and
many MISTAKE their OPINION for fact.............
 
GQ




Jeptha -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 11:01:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alanshoreisgod

....Mainly I think that, for the most part, actually HAVING and BEING in a d/s relationship tends to strip away a lot of the fantasy, and replace it with cold hard reality, and that people who write about d/s relationships, not from the perspective of what I see to be a mature, knowledgeable adult who has lived in those relationships, experienced the ups and downs of them, and learned to adapt and evolve when reality intervenes, but instead discusses them like bad literotica porn...probably hasn't really been in one.


Alanshoreisgod, your lawyerly equanimity served you in good stead during that punishing cross-examination!

But I do disagree with you about the above. Even in a relationship, some people like the romance of using the florid language and motifs that D/s offers.
It can keep them focused on loftier things, like relationship goals, responsibilities, roles that they want to fulfill, or not taking one another for granted, etc, etc. ~ or it can just be hot, or fun, or whatever.

As such, it can be like a sort of mindfullness thingie. And who can be against that in this day and age?

It can be a useful tool in several capacities...and then again, some people are just like that - they like to use dramatic language and flourishes to make themselves stars of their own world.

(And why not?)

Sometimes, true, it could be a very new person with stars in their eyes, but I'm fairly older and with at least some experience, and I'm still a romantic idiot at times. So, I can testify to that, at least.


edit to add: In fact, I still think of some old relationships in terms befitting "bad literotica porn"... All depends on what you're looking for going into it, I think.




agirl -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 12:36:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

so you dont think its arrogant to make the claim that you can tell who is in a "real" D/s relationship based upon posts on a message board? or that you can tell who are professionals and who arent?


quote...Mainly I think that, for the most part, actually HAVING and BEING in a d/s relationship tends to strip away a lot of the fantasy, and replace it with cold hard reality, and that people who write about d/s relationships, not from the perspective of what I see to be a mature, knowledgeable adult who has lived in those relationships, experienced the ups and downs of them, and learned to adapt and evolve when reality intervenes, but instead discusses them like bad literotica porn...probably hasn't really been in one....unquote 

Nope...It didn't strike me as *arrogant*.....It struck me as something he's *come across and/or discovered*.

He also said * for the most part* .


agirl




















DesFIP -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 12:53:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yes I am superior to my slave, as noted by definition 1 and 2  from www.thefreedictionary.com :

su·pe·ri·or
play_w2("S0898600")


 (s[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oobreve.gif[/image]-pîr[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/image][image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif[/image]-[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]r)
adj.
1. Higher than another in rank, station, or authority: a superior officer.2. Of a higher nature or kind.3. Of great value or excellence; extraordinary.4. Greater in number or amount than another: an army defeated by superior numbers of enemy troops.5. Affecting an attitude of disdain or conceit; haughty and supercilious. My slave is inferior to me as noted by definition 1 from www.thefreedictionary.comin·fe·ri·or
play_w2("I0127900")


 ([image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif[/image]n-fîr[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/image][image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif[/image]-[image]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]r)
adj.
1. Low or lower in order, degree, or rank: Captain is an inferior rank to major.2.
a. Low or lower in quality, value, or estimation: inferior craft; felt inferior to his older sibling.b. Second-rate; poor: an inferior translation.3. Situated under or beneath. Not sure why people get hung up on those words. Maybe it is something that should be reflected on inwardly.


People get het up by these words because saying you are superior usually is not done to say you have a superior rank but that you are of greater value as a person and she is inferior in value, quality, intelligence as a person. And speaking personally, if someone else feels the need to surround themselves with people of much lesser station, intelligence, etc I assume they're insecure as all get out.

When blowhards use such words, that is what they are saying. They simply are trying to make themselves bigger by making others smaller. But if your ability to come across as competent or deserving of respect depends on your cutting down others, then you don't come across as competent or deserving of respect in most people's eyes.




tazzygirl -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 1:03:06 PM)

when you speak about what you "believe" then that is fine. when you speak from a place of "knowing" about those you do not "know" then that is arrogance, in my opinion. the literotica porn is pretty much what we all know, and, to me, was not the intention, nor the aim, of that post.

but, to each their own.

the rest honestly isnt worth it. lots of people learn lots of things. words can hide as much as they reveal.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 1:36:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

People get het up by these words because saying you are superior usually is not done to say you have a superior rank but that you are of greater value as a person and she is inferior in value, quality, intelligence as a person. And speaking personally, if someone else feels the need to surround themselves with people of much lesser station, intelligence, etc I assume they're insecure as all get out.


Must be a lot of insecure people in the military, police, etc. Superior and inferior, has several definitions. The question is why do many automatically assume and use the negative definitions? If we are using definition 1 of superior, then the reason they may surround themselves with such people, is that they may be creating a "house" that they are in charge of. Even looking at it from a wolf pack mentality, there is a pecking order from the Alpha on down. Each assume their role within the pack, within a natural stratification.

quote:


When blowhards use such words, that is what they are saying. They simply are trying to make themselves bigger by making others smaller. But if your ability to come across as competent or deserving of respect depends on your cutting down others, then you don't come across as competent or deserving of respect in most people's eyes.


Someone may indeed be using definition 5, but it seems that is the conclusion that everyone jumps to when the word is used. There could be any number of reasons why someone cuts down others, hell I see it in some D/s relationships that involve humiliation. Seems there is always this knee jerk reaction to such terminology though, and it seems it comes much from people's experience and how they have allowed those experiences to mold them. That is why I also said maybe those that jump to those conclusions may need to look inwardly as to why they do that.




agirl -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 2:05:12 PM)

quote:


~*~*~*~*
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

when you speak about what you "believe" then that is fine. when you speak from a place of "knowing" about those you do not "know" then that is arrogance, in my opinion. the literotica porn is pretty much what we all know, and, to me, was not the intention, nor the aim, of that post.

but, to each their own.

the rest honestly isnt worth it. lots of people learn lots of things. words can hide as much as they reveal.


As that post began with * Mainly, I think......*.... it seems to me to be what HE thinks.

agirl









Aswad -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 2:08:32 PM)

~nevermind~




tazzygirl -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 2:12:44 PM)

the backstroke was already in force by that point. but, i am glad that works for you.




agirl -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 2:33:29 PM)

His, or their, apparent *arrogance* completely passed me by. Yes.

agirl






GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 2:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


. Even looking at it from a wolf pack mentality, there is a pecking order from the Alpha on down.
quote:



The ALPHA is female..
and  she sees the rest as equal with their place as she guides and teaches...creates a safe envrionment and assigns position according to skill sets such as young males
without mates as "baby sitters..."
 
 
GQ
 







OrionTheWolf -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 3:02:06 PM)

What are you on about? In a wolf pack the Alpha is female? You seem to throw some incomprehensible comments out sometimes. Could you explain a bit further?




Aswad -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 4:51:44 PM)

-fr-

As I recall, wolf packs have one alpha male and one alpha female, the mating pair, and the female of the pair tends toward submission to the male of the pair, but is not submissive to the remainder of the pack. King and Queen thing. Not that this necessarily has any applicability to humans, given the wide range of configurations that can be successfully implemented in human societies without causing conflict.

Viking society perfectly demonstrates the innate drives and talents of the sexes. Women ran the flat units (i.e. the homes that constituted one community), while men ran the organization of units into hierarchies (i.e. government, warfare, etc.). Social gender could be changed for women by forsaking the child-bearing role in favor of the warrior role (the culture, with regard to these roles, has some parallells to Sparta, save that the farming was not done by a seperate slave caste).

Men have a greater drive toward conquest, a lower aversion to risk, and an innate understanding of hierarchy. The latter is necessary to build larger social units (in effect, communities of communities), although men and women appear to be equally proficient in handling such structures once they are in place (cf. female generals in the history of warfare). Women have a greater ability to consider multiple elements within a flat structure at the same time, making them uniquely suited to creating and governing families, and conferring advantages within some hierarchies. The relative lack of a drive for conquest, and greater ability to become generalists (whereas men tend to specialize more strongly), provides much needed flexibility. Sensitivity to the emotional aspects that influence day to day living allow women to do a better job of keeping things running smoothly, and to tailor the evolution of the culture of a community in a direction that fosters this unity.

Similar trends are visible in language, as I discussed with Kim in the context of the neurological differences between the sexes. Men have a lower capacity for parallell processing, and will thus tend to create hierarchies of smaller, more linear units. Women have a higher capacity, and thus do not generally develop this facility (no need for it in the formative years, unlike their advanced language skills), instead using larger, less linear units that tend to be less hierarchially organized. As a side benefit, women rarely have difficulties in parsing a hierarchial mode of expression, though most men would argue that they fill in the blanks in men's simplistic, linear forms in a quite liberal manner. Body language is a nice way to cut the red tape to say "shut up, I love you, the dress looks gorgeous, and now I'm going to rip it off with my teeth and I promise you'll be wonderfully sore in the morning," and a form of expression I've found to generally sit quite well with both parties.

The problem, insofar as there is one- and from a female perspective, or from an explorer's perspective, there is indeed a problem- is that the male hierarchies accomplish the typical engineering feat: making something more than the sum of its parts. In short, it confers various forms of wealth, including power. So far, no problem, per se. However, men, lacking some of the aforementioned sensibilities, are frequently not inclined to see what women bring to the table, and fail then to explore the possibilities that arise from allowing (a fairly accurate term when one has power) them to do so. Women, as a whole, don't go after it, either, and the exceptional ones who do, tend to encounter opposition from the men who might see them as competitors for power, and the women who might see them as competitors for status (and mates, and...). That has been expounded on at length by female authors, with the earliest examples I can remember being about the 14th century CE in Europe, the 8th century CE in the Middle-East, and sometime BCE in China.

In those cases where women have been in a position to govern, and have acquired that position on their merits, it appears they have done an excellent job. In those cases where it hasn't been on their merits, they've fared as poorly as meritless men, but received a greater backlash on account of being atypical for their culture to begin with. Accordingly, it seems to be pointless to claim that the two are equal, but equally pointless to claim that one has inherent superiority with regard to power and the ability to lead.

Paradoxically for those who shout the modern equality gospel, it is precisely the notion of equality that opposes meritocracy, which is the means whereby women of substance can have an opportunity to demonstrate their quality. As a result, equality translates into male entitlement and single moms trying to get by on half an income with twice the work. Not particularly beneficial for either gender.

And, of course, in the context of power exchange, any notion of equality is just another word for suspense of disbelief.

I'm pretty sure I had a punchline in mind, but right now it escapes me, so:

Equality bad. Merit good. Genders complementary.

Health,
al-Aswad.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 5:14:28 PM)

Yes the beta female. That is my understanding from mys studies as well. Not sure where this came from, used just an example of natural stratification, to show how superior and inferior are not necessarily bad terms, or that those that seek to create that type of group are necessarily insecure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

-fr-

As I recall, wolf packs have one alpha male and one alpha female, the mating pair, and the female of the pair tends toward submission to the male of the pair, but is not submissive to the remainder of the pack.





littlewonder -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/2/2009 8:04:51 PM)

I don't see myself as equal to Master but I don't see myself as inferior either..just not having the same talents or skills in life and I have no problems at all accepting this because imo no one in life is equal...just different from each other.




DesFIP -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/3/2009 11:38:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Must be a lot of insecure people in the military, police, etc. Superior and inferior, has several definitions. The question is why do many automatically assume and use the negative definitions?


Most of us don't think of police, military, Salvation Army etc ranks because most of us are civilians. It really is that simple.

Since we haven't ever been in a ranked organization, it is foreign to our experience. What is not foreign to our experience are people who have tried to be more by making others less. My youngest met his first bully in first grade, that's an experience that will far predate the first time he meets a police officer, military officer etc. And since it is doubtful that he will ever join the military or police, but will have encountered bullies in every grade of school, I can assure you that if you said 'inferior" to him, he would think of bullies and not ranked organizations.




lobodomslavery -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/3/2009 11:58:30 AM)

There is no equality in the world, BDSM or otherwise. Nor should there be. Equality by its very nature would bring injustice. It would mean at its furthest extent that everyone would earn the same as everyone else. Is this fair? Ask the person who works 20 hours a day should he/She/she earn the same amount as the person who works 7 hours a day.  You can be very sure that he would answer in the negative. There. Equal we are not.  And thank heavens for that
kevin




OrionTheWolf -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/3/2009 1:57:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Must be a lot of insecure people in the military, police, etc. Superior and inferior, has several definitions. The question is why do many automatically assume and use the negative definitions?


Most of us don't think of police, military, Salvation Army etc ranks because most of us are civilians. It really is that simple.


I am a civilian and that is the first thing I thought of. It is also the first definition in the dictionary I listed, so that is likely the most common usage.

quote:


Since we haven't ever been in a ranked organization, it is foreign to our experience. What is not foreign to our experience are people who have tried to be more by making others less. My youngest met his first bully in first grade, that's an experience that will far predate the first time he meets a police officer, military officer etc. And since it is doubtful that he will ever join the military or police, but will have encountered bullies in every grade of school, I can assure you that if you said 'inferior" to him, he would think of bullies and not ranked organizations.


Society is ranked, it is just many wish to turn a blind eye to it. CEO's, National Politicians, Celebrities, Sports Figures, etc. all enjoy different treatment and prestige than the rest of society. I met my first bully as far as back as I can remember, I lived with him until I was big enough to stand up for myself. The term superior, is also used for your boss at work and why many companies have rules against insubordination.

Maybe I have always chosen to not take words that have multiple meanings, as a negative when the majority of the definitions and usage for such a word are not negative. I suppose it all comes from within.




TEMPERANCE -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/3/2009 4:03:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


and to both who do not see yourselves as equal to the other person in your relationsip... do you see that inequality as inferior?


I do not see myself as equal in a D/s relationship.. if i did to would skew the dynamics... though i most certainly not see myself as inferior.. my self eteem is fully intact. 




Aswad -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/3/2009 4:28:41 PM)

Actually, DesFIP has a point, which can be emphasized by contrasting "raising oneself" vs "lowering others", with the former being more apt to inspire envy, while the latter is more apt to inspire resentment. The wording, "be more by making others less", was a curious turn of phrase to me, but I probably shouldn't read too much into it. In any case, envy occurs in response to others being superior in some way, and its origins are rarely benign. Resentment, however, is on to something. It could be seen as a form of contempt, which is a fundamental emotion (with a direct-wired autonomous response), and hardly one that tends to flow from recognition of superiority.

I can think of a debate some time ago where the reasons for the latter occuring in a certain context were brought up. Perhaps it rings other people's bells, too. The topic, though, was a bit too flammable to be constructive to get into here. Interesting sort of indirect occurence of solid commentary, though.





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