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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Did the person gain from another's action, without payment? Yes. Is this theft? Yes. It doesn't matter about anything else, that is again justification for theft.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Hypothetical situation. You have a job counting money. This is not at a store, this is at a major place where hundreds of thousands of dollars are counted every day. Every bag, every package or whatever must come out exactly to the penny, and there are no excuses. You are actually recounting money to make sure the figures are accurate.

Then, you come across a twenty that looks odd, never seen it before and you decide to take it and replace it with a regular twenty of your own. The tally is correct. Later you find, for axample that it is a silver certificate and worth many times it's face value to collectors. So you then make sure that every day you have every denomination of currency and maybe even coin to do it again.

Now before you make a snap judgement and say "THAT'S STEALING", think about this. Such old bills etc. are destroyed by the federal reserve once they get there. And if you let it go, that money goes to a bank where they have counters that are on the lookout for such bills. When they find them all they have to do is fill out a form and slip in a note about it, why the tally isn't right. But in the end wealth, specifically in the form of that old note or coin, is destroyed. The net result of your action is nil, the tally comes out right, the boss is pleased, everything is hunky-dory. But you land a few bucks.

You may say "but still......" but that is negated by the fact that you KNOW for a fact that the intrinsic value, ergo the wealth involved here, will be utterly wasted. It benefits noone at all. Not any fellow Citizen, not even the damn government, it becomes a total waste. (research that if you want, I already know, anything that says "redeemable in lawful money" is destroyed immediately). In fact if you keep it you are saving the government, ergo the people money. The energy required to ignite and burn the old bill, as well as the resources used to print a new one.

Who has what has nothing to do with this morality, it doesn't matter if your boss wipes his ass with hundred dollar bills. I am talking about a more intrinsic morality. For example if working at one of the stores, I think it would be good to go to the boss and offer to do this and split it with him. But when you work at the clearinghouse or whatever to call it, what do you do ?

Or would it be more moral to just call it in as a suspected counterfeit bill and let them take it directly to the shredder ?

Maybe the question could be put as - if you gain, but noone, and I mean noone else loses, is it theft or is it more like....... salvage ?

I have other examples, and in one the supposed theft actually is beneficial to those who provided the "booty". We'll get to that. But in each case, there is no cost to anyone. In these cases can it be called theft ? IIRC in Ohio theft is defined as depriving for personal gain. If that is the case then it is not illegal. But then is it moral ? And just how close is any morality involved with law these days anyways ?

I used this as the most extreme example. Other examples are quite different.

T

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK, so far so good, but people are focusing on the money. Let's say it was something else. To explain this scenario unfortunately I have to explain a bit of electronics and I will keep as short as I can.

Transformers exist in many types of electronic equipment. They work because when you induce a current to flow in a wire a magnetic field is created. When another wire is in range of that field it will induce a voltage across that wire as well.

So a guy owns some land and the utility co. puts up high tension wires over the property. The property owner puts a wire on the ground under the wires and voila, there is voltage there. Free power. Now in this case understand if he draws power (current) from it he is increasing the efficiency of the electric co.'s wire. Nobody loses, in fact they gain, both on the generating end as well as on the user end. There is less loss in the wire.

Basically he is salvaging the waste electromotive force. Now despite the fact that he cost noone a dime, and actually saved people just a small amount, the courts have held that this is theft nonetheless.

There is no connection to the power wires, the guy has not climbed the poles nor touched anything they own. He simply layed a wire on the ground and this is called theft, even though there is no loss whatsoever, in fact there is a gain. I know my electronics theory pretty damn well and I can tell you for sure and this is what I say, that power he gets does not show up on anyone's meter, nor does it impose a heavier drain on the generator, or grid, or wherever they are getting the power they are selling.

Without me being a lawyer, it was probably not argued that the power company sells power from the wires, not the waste EMF around those wires. They put the guy in jail.

The point is the morality of it, if someone needs more technical aspects of this just ask. The point is not necessarily that the guy went to jail, I am talking morality not law. Now with that stance, what of solar cells ? You seemingly get something for nothing. The only major difference I see here is there is nobody around to bitch about someone "stealing" solar power. The sun does not have lawyers on retainer.

Opinions now ?

T

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Now with that stance, what of solar cells ? You seemingly get something for nothing. The only major difference I see here is there is nobody around to bitch about someone "stealing" solar power. The sun does not have lawyers on retainer.

Opinions now ?

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ORIGINAL: Irishknight

The best choice is to let me exchange the certificate and we split the money.

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ORIGINAL: Loki45

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Did the person gain from another's action, without payment? Yes. Is this theft? Yes. It doesn't matter about anything else, that is again justification for theft.

That explanation makes even finding a $20 on the ground and keeping it 'theft.' A person can't be robbed of something they don't know they have. It's talked about in many news stories where a couple finds some rare item at a garage sale and pays chump change for it only to learn it was worth millions. Did they steal it from the garage seller? No. He didn't know its value and sold it for pennies. Same applies here. If the person thought the bill was a $20 and used it as such, and if the establishment comes away with the $20 it should have received originally, then it's not stealing.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
If the person placed the twenty in their yard, then yeah it is theft. If the person placed the twenty, you took it, invested it, then made $5 and returned it, it is still theft. The power belongs to the power company, and if they want to waste it, it is their right. Now if the power were to make it's way to a public dump site, it would depend on the policies of who owned the dump site (such as garbage scavengers).

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
As far as the garage sale, that is a different story legally. Personally I have been at a garage sale, saw some comics (used to be a collector long ago) and mentioned to them if they had something even marginally worth any money. Sorry but I am kind of an ethical person like that, and taking advantage of people's ignorance is theft in my book (code).

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ORIGINAL: Loki45

You're inserting "ifs" where I indicated none. I didn't say anything about the $20 being in someone's yard. What I said was merely about finding a $20 and keeping it being illegal according to the previously posted description. When you start adding "ifs" and other stipulations, you change the very nature of the event.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
As far as the garage sale, that is a different story legally. Personally I have been at a garage sale, saw some comics (used to be a collector long ago) and mentioned to them if they had something even marginally worth any money. Sorry but I am kind of an ethical person like that, and taking advantage of people's ignorance is theft in my book (code).

Yours, not mine. And apparently not many other people's either, since there have been numerous stories in the news about someone buying something for cheap only to find out it was worth considerably more. Furthermore, you *knew* they might have comics worth some money, so you told them. The average garage sale shopper probably does not. They just look for what they can find. I know I wouldn't know a first edition Superman comic from any other. However, being a fan of Superman, if I saw an old-looking comic for sale, I'd probably buy it just to check it out later. If upon checking it out, I learned it was worth a shitload of money, I'm not going back to the house to say "oh, I should give you a few thousand for that since it's really worth so much."

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That's not what garage sales are about anyway. Typically in a garage sale, you take items that you either don't want anymore, or don't need anymore and you put prices on them according to what you think you can get, not what you paid, or what the item may actually be worth. Garage sales are generally priced to move the junk we no longer want. If you don't do the research to find out what price you should put on the item, you can't fault the buyer for paying what you asked and making out on the deal.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
The if's come from the OP and then the follow up scenario.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
That is your choice. Personally I find it dishonest, when you make a monetary gain via someone else's ignorance. So if I sale sand to someone, and they believe it is gold, but I had nothing to do with them believing it is gold, then that is okay?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Question though, would you do the same thing to a friend of yours? Not just an aquaintence, but a real good friend?

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ORIGINAL: Loki45

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
The if's come from the OP and then the follow up scenario.

The OP's post including nothing about "finding a $20 on the ground," mine did. And mine was in response to what you said in a previous post. The way you worded it, if I am walking along and spot a $20 on the ground and I take it, I'm guilty of crime.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
That is your choice. Personally I find it dishonest, when you make a monetary gain via someone else's ignorance. So if I sale sand to someone, and they believe it is gold, but I had nothing to do with them believing it is gold, then that is okay?

Here we have apples to oranges. We were talking about buying something that the seller didn't know was worth more, not selling something claiming it was something it was not. There is a world of difference there.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Question though, would you do the same thing to a friend of yours? Not just an aquaintence, but a real good friend?

Chances are, if it were a friend of mine, he'd already know what it was worth. And again, most garage sales aren't about selling items for top dollar or what you think they are worth. They're about selling 'junk' that you don't want or need anymore for whatever you can get for it.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
If that is how you want to take it out of the context of answering the OP, and the stipulations in it, that is your perogative to be purposefully obstuse if you wish.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You need to read it again. The buyer in my situation believes the item to be of more value than it actually is. The seller had nothing to do with that incorrect information being there. It is the same situation in reverse. Your world of difference is only in justification of the action.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
You avoiding the question tells alot, and already answers my question. Hypocricy and justification is what I see. May I recommend some introspection, examiniation of your code, and at the very least being honest with yourself.

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ORIGINAL: Loki45

That explanation makes even finding a $20 on the ground and keeping it 'theft.' A person can't be robbed of something they don't know they have. It's talked about in many news stories where a couple finds some rare item at a garage sale and pays chump change for it only to learn it was worth millions. Did they steal it from the garage seller? No. He didn't know its value and sold it for pennies. Same applies here. If the person thought the bill was a $20 and used it as such, and if the establishment comes away with the $20 it should have received originally, then it's not stealing.

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ORIGINAL: ishyB
ouch

I don't know what the laws in the US are in this regard, but I do know that in at least 3 European countries, it would be illegal to keep it.

Here in Belgium you are obligated to bring ANYTHING you find on the street to the nearest police station. This included money.
There is a designated time in which the item can be claimed at the lost and found by it's rightful owner. The length of this time depends on the value of the item. If after said period the item is not claimed, then the person who found it gets to keep it.

And yes, people have been convicted of braking this law. A number of years ago there was a story in the news of a guy who found an envelope with a large sum of money in it. He went bragging about it to his friends and spending it in a bar to celibrate.
Meanwhile the man who lost if filed a report at the police station and it just happened to be that the cop who wrote the report was in the same bar that night where the finder was celebrating and bragging about it.
The cop confiscated the money, and the guy who found did to not only had repay all the money he had already spend, but also had to pay a penalty fee for not turning it in.

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

....speaking of money- be sure to have $5s and $1s on hand.   the debit/credit system could be down for 5 days.    the first run will not be the 6-8 months... that comes later.