RE: Transsexual = Female? (Full Version)

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beargonewild -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:41:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

Its a debate and I'm trying to learn a little more on the subject, I'm not saying I'm right and my opinion is the only one that matters and everyone should follow it. People do love to twist and focus too much on a single point on here.



Below is a reprint of an article my sister wrote and was printed in the local paper and was also picked up in one of the major papers based in Toronto, Canada. I have both written and verbal permission from her to  post it here and may it will help you see thing a bit more clearly. Keep on  ind she write this 15 years ago so some terminology has changed.

GENDER DISORDER

The brain is a very complex piece of anatomy that doctors and psychologist have been trying to understand for many years. Medical doctor and psychologist are having troubles explaining our thoughts, feelings and responses in our everyday activities. We, as today society, cant explain our actions as to why we are attracted to the same sex, along with our needs for excitement, pleasures and comfort.

A person walking down the street looking at another same sex person may become confused if there is an attraction. Or another person may not understand why he/she was born in the wrong gender or identity. These two types of scenarios are a mystery to scientists in today's norm as to why it is taking place or if there is a cure.

There have been many treatments and experiments that doctors, psychologists and religion authorities have tried to help a victim of abnormal behaviors in order to believe the victim may become part of today's society's norm.
 
Here is one example of treatment that has been tried for gender disorder only. In order for treatment of gender disorder you had to be diagnosed as having a medical disorder. Once you are diagnosed with gender disorder, it was said that one did not understand how one person had the desire to live as the opposite sex.

Back in the 60s to want to be the opposite sex was unheard of, so in order for a patient to receive treatment, the patient would have to go through rigorous treatment to be cured of this gender disorder. 
In many institutions, the treatment was very harsh and cruel, sometimes leading to death. There have been many cases where the people diagnosed with gender disorder have received psychological help in order to live the socially normal life that the norm portrays.

One of the treatments that the doctor gave to males who wished to be females was to dress the male as a female; wear a female dress, panties, bras, nylons, and so on. Once you were fully dressed, the doctor would connect electrode wires to your body. What would happen is that you would receive an electric shock. Once you got zapped, you would start to take the female garments of until you were naked. The shock treatments would go on three to four times a day until the doctor felt you were cured. After receiving the shock treatments for several months the patient would go out and live in the society of norm thinking he was cured of the gender disorder.

In most cases, the shock and other cruel treatments would fail, whereas the patient felt he or she would never fit into the norm of society, so he or she would commit suicide. Or, if caught in the opposite gender role, he or she would be killed because the social norm believed he or she of a gender disorder was portrayed as a pedophile and a danger to society.Treatment for gender disorder would go on until the late 70s to the early 80s. The people who would survive the gay bashing, or electric shock treatment was the people who stayed at home and was never to be seen in public. The people who did dress in the opposite sex and lived their lives that way took a big chance in losing their life, that is, until the 1980s, when researchers came up with a whole new theory of gender disorder.

The theory is that gender disorder is now known as transgenderism. If you were diagnosed to be transgendered, there were steps and stages a person needed to follow. The first step is to see a psychologist regularly for one year. Then you would be recommended to a doctor to receive hormonal treatment. Your doctor would closely supervise the hormone treatment for the first two years. After the two years or so, you would need to live as the opposite gender for a period of one year before being allowed to receive any surgery that would alter your body to the opposite sex.

The reason for all these stages that need to be followed is that there have been cases where a person with a gender disorder would fall back to their birth sex and still live behind closed doors. If a transgender person chose to live his or her live with his or her birth sex, it would be because either the gender disorder was only a fetish to the transgender person, or the transgender person found it hard to deal with the so-called societys social norm.

Our thoughts and feelings are not like having a seizure where sometime the side of the brain causing the seizure may be removed or scraped for the person to lead a normal life without having to face any other seizures.

A gender disorder person is not someone to fear. If you would only take the time to talk to a person who has gender disorder, you would find that they are interesting people with thoughts and fears. By socializing with a gender disorder person you'll learn not only that this person did not choose this way of life but also had to learn how to deal with it in order to cope with society's norm. 
People don't choose their sexual preference or their way of life when gender disorder comes into play.

A well-known fact is that people who realize they are living outside of the social norm may become victims of a high-rate of suicide. Suicide is an easy way out for the gender disorder person because he or she is very depressed and is afraid as to what their family, friends or community think, and most of all, the fear of being killed at the hands of someone else.

Gender disorder people are not looking for a handshake and don't expect today's society to understand and appreciate their way of life. People with gender disorders only ask for support and acceptance of this society in order to help deal with the pain and hurt they must face in order to fit into society's norm. 
It has been said the ones who mock the abnormal person are the ones who speak for themselves and not the community.

These people doing the mocking are either facing a ghost in their own closet with the fear of being found out or have issues of their own that need to be dealt with. But it has been found societal norms fear is caused by ignorance of its own.

Gender disorder people are asking for the public not to turn a blind eye but to understand, help and work with the abnormalities in today's society. By doing so we can make this world a better place to live in.

I wrote this article because I was once a victim of the abnormal and faced a great deal of ridicule, embarrassment, but most of all fear the loss of my family and friends. I will say that I was a victim of suicide on two occasions and was admitted to a psychiatric institution because of self-harm. At the psychiatric hospital, I was diagnosed with having a gender disorder, now known as Transgender. I was very fortunate to get the support and help I needed from my family, friends and community. This is why I am here today to help educate others with or without a gender disorder.

Denise Giroux




stella41b -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:42:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
I can understand that it would matter specifically here what is in her underwear for those who are considering having an intimate relationship, but is it really that big a deal?


It can be a big deal for some. Granted it's their issue and not yours, but if they feel you intentionally misled them by withholding that one fact, things can get very very bad in a hurry. I think there was a case in Denver about that recently. It was a murder trial, because it was 'the guy's issue.' It was his issue.....and it very quickly became the TS person's issue.....and not in a good way.

Yes, labels suck. But we're in a society that has to have drowning lables on a mop bucket or 'caution hot' on a cup of coffee from McDonald's. If you can cover your own ass with the use of a 'label' it may be worth it in the long run.



Yes I agree with you, we all have our preferences and I wouldn't argue with those preferences or even seek to refer to them as issues.

Whether to disclose or not is a constant choice for many of us transgendered and you constantly have to weigh up the pros and cons. I'm one for disclosure but some go the 'stealth' route and not disclose, but if you're doing that in such an intimate situation then you're sure taking a helluva risk and it isn't a risk that I personally would want to take.

That's why I carry the label TS and am open and up front about who I am. It's not really a biggie for me because I was born a TS, I am a TS and I will die as a TS and it's no different from the truth.

This is from my own personal perspective.




slaveboy291 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:42:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
Others, well I saw a few ads calling guys idiots for not know that bisexual means they're not interested in men period.

Ooh the irony of someone who thinks a bisexual women aren't interested in men at all calling others idiots.


Yep, those would be the one that leave me scratching my head (and laughing).



What's even more headscratching is something I've seen alot recently.

Women who say they're looking for women only.

But yet, have their search preference set to sub males.

Geez, if you don't want guys(and I'm not referring to those who have a found a male and are now looking for a female, I'm talking about women who post ads in this respect)  why you list yourself as searching for sub males?

That's just asking for trouble.




Loki45 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:42:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willowspirit

Hey, I just read the OP's profile.
Only 20 years old...
What if many of us have a serious problem with 20 year olds calling themselves "Master" ?
I mean, geesh!
It's about "classifications"  -- right ???
Heck, to many of my lifestyle friends, the term "Master" implies that you are in a relationship... that you own someone?
   How can some one be a "Master" unless they have accepted the commitment and are committed to a slave/submissive?
       It's about "classifications",  right???


Touche or not touche? That is the question.

You forgot one though. The 18-20 girl who says "I want a Master to serve, but in my own age group." That always makes me go "Well darlin', it's not a Master you're lookin' for then. But good luck."




Loki45 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:44:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
What's even more headscratching is something I've seen alot recently.

Women who say they're looking for women only.

But yet, have their search preference set to sub males.

Geez, if you don't want guys(and I'm not referring to those who have a found a male and are now looking for a female, I'm talking about women who post ads in this respect)  why you list yourself as searching for sub males?

That's just asking for trouble.


Yep. There are many reasons I don't "seek" anyone anymore. But one of the biggest reasons to continue on a profile site is all the humorous profiles I see. Some just have me cracking up.




slaveboy291 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:46:33 PM)

You know I said almost the same thing in a journal entry earlier as a prologue to women who say they're bisexual, but have zero interest in men.

When it comes to unitentional comedy, this site is a goldmine.




YoungMaster1988 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:48:47 PM)

quote:


Only 20 years old...
What if many of us have a serious problem with 20 year olds calling themselves "Master" ?
I mean, geesh!


You can have a problem with it as much as you like, I've got 20 in the tick box so you know my age before you even click on my profile. ;-)


Anyway I think this thread has run its course, believe it or not I have learnt some things from this thread and despite what some of you (i.e. all of you lol) may think I have nothing against transsexuals and everybody should be free to live their life as they choose so long as it doesn't harm others, my issue was just with where transsexuals pop up in the search function.

At the end of the day love me or hate me (probably the latter) there's no denying I've provided a bit of a discussion tonight, I just hope I've not offended or upset anyone too much in the process.




Loki45 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 5:49:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
When it comes to unitentional comedy, this site is a goldmine.


Absolutely.




zenny -> RE: Does having a Y chromosome make somebody a man? (7/4/2009 6:00:07 PM)

That's a bit interesting. Although their conclusions are retarded. While experiments with animals can help suggest things with humans, such comparisons cannot be assumed to exactly (or even closely) translate.

It is also quite disturbing that they only appear to quote one person, and one organization, and no actual research.

Regardless, in such cases it comes down to how you define sex: by chromosomes, by sexual organs, or some combination thereof. A 'man' with complete AIS, will not have a complete reproductive system. A woman with CAH will be masculinized, but still a woman. Any other abnormalities such as Xo, XXy, and Xyy (I'm not going to go into hermaphadites) tend to be one or the other despite being an 'other' via chromosomes. The error in thought is that there is only male or female sex. There is an other, as well.

To the OP, learn the difference between sex and gender. As most people destinguish it, 'you are born with sex, you get to choose (more or less) gender.' How will you? (that's rhetorical, I really don't care)




WarKirby -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:08:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
As in, I'm of two minds on the subject. One the one hand.....it's there, why not use it. On the other....why should they have to label themselves. It's not just a simple issue for the TS person *or* their would-be suitors.


My take on this.
We know the general meaning of trans. But I view it as having a secondary meaning. Transitory.

Pre ops, are correcting their life, becoming who they believe they should be.  But I'd say, post ops, those confidant enough to begin looking for a partner, who live their chosen life each day, are no longer transitory. They have reached the destination.

In general, I view a transsexual as someone who is in between. I don't think it fits for those who have achieved what they set out to do.




atypicalsub -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:13:35 PM)

Racquelle, what do you think of someone who happens to have been born with a penis, but grew up playing games, with toys, and activities that are generaly regarded as girls things? What if despite their physical anatomy they did not have an interest in the things that boys are supposed to do growing up? By the same token, would you consider a girl who grew up as a classic tom-boy to be male? What if someone has the physical anatomy of one gender, but the brain chemistry of the other?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

Part of me, in my heart of hearts feels that a male who has become female by hormones and surgery is not entirely the same as a woman who was born female and grew up as female.  And I don't say that to suggest this person is somehow less or bad - just not the same.  Gender is so much about how one is raised, socialized, and even the biochemical experiences of growing up and puberty and all that.  A woman who became one at age 40 simply has not had the life of a woman born as one.  That is my emotional take on it in any case.







WarKirby -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:14:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

Its about what goes on in my head as well though, I'm not doubting that transsexuals are attractive and good at sex but for me, and I expect everyone, what is attractive isn't just what is pleasing to the eye, its also psychological and I'm afraid with a transsexual the fact that they used to be a man would always play on my mind.

I'm sorry and I really do wish that wasn't the case but it is, I don't see why you should belittle it as an "icky feeling" like its childish or ignorant for me to think this. People like different things and are allowed to like different things, the point of my post wasn't what turns you on vs doesn't turn you on, it was whether transsexuals should be classified as female on this website.


Then think of this.
What if you didn't know?
What if this person never told you their history. You met up, found each other perfectly suited, lived together happily for years. Who is hurt by not telling you?

If it came to starting a family, they could just claim to be barren, not even technically lying.

This feeling you have, serves no purpose except as a possible barrier to a fulfilling relationship. And it seems like you'd be better off not knowing.

If someone you'd been married to for 10 years and loved dearly, admitted that they were born a man and had the operation before you met. Would you throw everything away because of your principle?




GreedyTop -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:17:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
As in, I'm of two minds on the subject. One the one hand.....it's there, why not use it. On the other....why should they have to label themselves. It's not just a simple issue for the TS person *or* their would-be suitors.


My take on this.
We know the general meaning of trans. But I view it as having a secondary meaning. Transitory.

Pre ops, are correcting their life, becoming who they believe they should be.  But I'd say, post ops, those confidant enough to begin looking for a partner, who live their chosen life each day, are no longer transitory. They have reached the destination.

In general, I view a transsexual as someone who is in between. I don't think it fits for those who have achieved what they set out to do.



*applauds Kirby again*

Brilliantly said




YoungMaster1988 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:24:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

Then think of this.
What if you didn't know?
What if this person never told you their history. You met up, found each other perfectly suited, lived together happily for years. Who is hurt by not telling you?

If it came to starting a family, they could just claim to be barren, not even technically lying.

This feeling you have, serves no purpose except as a possible barrier to a fulfilling relationship. And it seems like you'd be better off not knowing.

If someone you'd been married to for 10 years and loved dearly, admitted that they were born a man and had the operation before you met. Would you throw everything away because of your principle?



I already said that its psychological, it could not play on my mind or be an issue if I did not know - you are right, however I don't think it would be possible to be more decptive.

You could translate the exact same argument into somebody cheating, what if I was going out with a married woman who continued to see her husband behind my back for ten years?

I wouldn't want to get involved with somebody who is not single in the same sense that I would not want to get involved with somebody who was not born female, I know its not the same thing but its the best I can do to explain how I feel regarding your post.




sweetsub1957 -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:27:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Oh goodie, a hate thread.  I was afraid we would have an entire day celebrating freedom and independence without one.


Too much to ask, alas.

And op, you deserve the grief you've caused yourself.


I agree, totally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

If someone looks like a woman, smells like a woman, tastes like a woman, fucks like only a woman can. Why are they not a woman? This isn't a case of viewpoints. This is an objective question of logic. What is it that defines a woman, which post ops don't have ?


Again, I agree totally. 

I have a friend on here who is a transsexual.  Before, he was pre-op and identified as male, now she is post-op and transitioning in real life and identifies as female, with a new profile, name, and everything.  There is more to gender than just DNA, sooooo much more.  I was born & still am female, not a TS.  I know there is more that makes me female than just my DNA. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

and what about intersexed folk?  Those whose DNA contains the chromosomes for BOTH sexes?? 


Yes, what about it OP?  How do you explain them?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

so, where do you take your white, hooded robe to be cleaned?


Inquiring minds want to know........

And finally, on my own.....is this thread really a troll???




onlyfreelycaged -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:27:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungMaster1988

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarKirby

Then think of this.
What if you didn't know?
What if this person never told you their history. You met up, found each other perfectly suited, lived together happily for years. Who is hurt by not telling you?

If it came to starting a family, they could just claim to be barren, not even technically lying.

This feeling you have, serves no purpose except as a possible barrier to a fulfilling relationship. And it seems like you'd be better off not knowing.

If someone you'd been married to for 10 years and loved dearly, admitted that they were born a man and had the operation before you met. Would you throw everything away because of your principle?



I already said that its psychological, it could not play on my mind or be an issue if I did not know - you are right, however I don't think it would be possible to be more decptive.

You could translate the exact same argument into somebody cheating, what if I was going out with a married woman who continued to see her husband behind my back for ten years?

I wouldn't want to get involved with somebody who is not single in the same sense that I would not want to get involved with somebody who was not born female, I know its not the same thing but its the best I can do to explain how I feel regarding your post.



there are pleanty of married people under the single lable... who arn't honest about it.




WarKirby -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:28:36 PM)

I am getting too much applause today. Thank you greedy [:D]





quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

You forgot one though. The 18-20 girl who says "I want a Master to serve, but in my own age group." That always makes me go "Well darlin', it's not a Master you're lookin' for then. But good luck."


What are you saying here? Dominants can't be young?




porcelaine -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:30:14 PM)

while i think everyone is entitled to their opinion, the op isn't completely off base in some of the things that were stated. i'm well aware that in various sports it is not possible for a transsexual to identify as the opposite sex, surgery or not. in the bylaws they clearly state one must be legally born the gender in question. like most things it depends on the circumstances if rules of this nature would be enforced.

personally i feel that while a surgery may have occurred to alter ones gender, there is a specific segment seeking people who have undergone this and failing to mention it in the profile is misleading. if the would be suitor fails to read the notice that is their issue. but all questions aside and getting to know a person and blah blah blah, most assume that when they are speaking to a specific gender that individual is genetically so without alteration if other identifying factors were not provided. i believe everyone should be allowed to make informed decisions. but that is largely dependent on the other party doing just that - informing you. as with all things on the internet, buyer beware.

porcelaine




rikigrl -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:36:48 PM)

people can be so intolerant, so hurtful, of those that don't meet their expectations, if you had to walk one day in my shoes your tune would change




GreedyTop -> RE: Transsexual = Female? (7/4/2009 6:37:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

while i think everyone is entitled to their opinion, the op isn't completely off base in some of the things that were stated. i'm well aware that in various sports it is not possible for a transsexual to identify as the opposite sex, surgery or not. in the bylaws they clearly state one must be legally born the gender in question. like most things it depends on the circumstances if rules of this nature would be enforced.

personally i feel that while a surgery may have occurred to alter ones gender, there is a specific segment seeking people who have undergone this and failing to mention it in the profile is misleading. if the would be suitor fails to read the notice that is their issue. but all questions aside and getting to know a person and blah blah blah, most assume that when they are speaking to a specific gender that individual is genetically so without alteration if other identifying factors were not provided. i believe everyone should be allowed to make informed decisions. but that is largely dependent on the other party doing just that - informing you. as with all things on the internet, buyer beware.

porcelaine



*bites tongue*


edit:   in a world where the big issues is steroid use,  I have yet to see ANY sports team do DNA testing. 




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