s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing

s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 3:43:03 AM)
The Criminal Mind on BBC Radio 4 today reports on whether criminals should be held responsible - or whether their behaviour is the inevitable consequence of neglect, abuse and even poor diet in infancy, leading to subnormal brain development and function. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00j6lh9 This means that no one is born criminal as phrenology might have had it (amongst other theories), but simultaneously condemns the offspring, who will inherit through environmental influence from the parents such tendencies, should the parents have suffered the requisite origin in a home full of neglect, abuse and poor nutrition, for many times the victim becomes the perpetrator. This raises some interesting questions - should the "damaged" be allowed to raise children, if its clear that their upbringing is likely to produce societal problems in the future as that damage is passed on? Should the criminal be anticipated by way of brain scans that show the underdevelopment of the brain, with the consequent removal of rights for potential perpetrators for the benefit of the rights of potential victims? Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible? Should the victim understand that the criminal is not responsible, and rather feel sympathy than a need for vengeance or recompense? Is that even possible? E

JonnieBoy -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:02:06 AM)
Well, since I have had a bump or two on my head, I'm not sure I'm in a position to comment for myself BUT ... It all sounds like there's a campaign afoot with a view to us "diagnosing" criminality with a view to possibly "curing" it. I understand that prevention is a good idea but by all of these diagnostic factors shoved in our faces, MP's who (allegedly [;)]) are "decent" and fit none of them still get away with defrauding us out of OUR money Pirate

sirsholly -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:11:34 AM)
quote: Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible? Poor things. Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires. Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe!

LadyEllen -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:12:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy I understand that prevention is a good idea but by all of these diagnostic factors shoved in our faces, MP's who (allegedly [;)]) are "decent" and fit none of them still get away with defrauding us out of OUR money Pirate ah, but then the possibility of becoming an MP is down to convincing initially a selection panel - an exercise at which pathological liars (who are also identified by brain scan) and those with few inhibitions to anti-social behaviour would be adept. Thereafter, the prospect of being elected in our system, barring selection for a safe seat is down to the party machine, how much and what kind of campaigning is done - something at which again, the pathological liar, fraudster and uninhibited can thrive at. Whether such malfunctioning humans pursue a "respectable" career or a criminal career is down to the same factors that affect career choices throughout society - opportunity. E

JonnieBoy -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:17:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible? Poor things. Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires. Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe! You've been studying UK government policy plans ... haven't you ? Pirate

LadyEllen -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:18:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible? Poor things. Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires. Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe! One of the studies discussed concerned adequate nutrition - without the right food the brain does not work properly. An experiment was conducted whereby offenders on release were given the requisite vitamins and minerals - their offending dropped significantly compared to the comparison group who received placebos. We already do much of what you suggested; its called prison. It only works as long as theyre in there. It has no deterrent effect and no rehabilitative effect and if we're truly punishing people then we're punishing them for their subnormal brain structure? If the purpose of the justice system is to deter offending and rehabilitate, then this stuff is worth looking at. E

JonnieBoy -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:24:39 AM)
Opportunity ... Is that in the screening process ? Will the lobotomy come back into fashion do you reckon ? Or ECT, at least that way there will be crooks who temporarily forget that they are crooks thus impacting on the statistics without them developing a permanent dribble (which would present a swine flu contagion risk). Pirate

sirsholly -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:27:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible? Poor things. Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires. Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe! One of the studies discussed concerned adequate nutrition - without the right food the brain does not work properly. An experiment was conducted whereby offenders on release were given the requisite vitamins and minerals - their offending dropped significantly compared to the comparison group who received placebos. We already do much of what you suggested; its called prison. It only works as long as theyre in there. It has no deterrent effect and no rehabilitative effect and if we're truly punishing people then we're punishing them for their subnormal brain structure? If the purpose of the justice system is to deter offending and rehabilitate, then this stuff is worth looking at. E you are much kinder then i.....[:)]

LadyEllen -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:39:49 AM)
You reckon SH? My view is that extenuating circumstances that can be proven must be taken into account and must inform our justice system. In the absence of such, then I'd consider crucifixions in Trafalgar Square every weekend. As for criminal MPs and merchant bankers, given that most of them could not bear the shame of being labelled "mad" (doesnt do for the family name, what!?), this would mean them rather than us getting cross at their misdeeds. E

sirsholly -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:45:59 AM)
quote: One of the studies discussed concerned adequate nutrition - without the right food the brain does not work properly. An experiment was conducted whereby offenders on release were given the requisite vitamins and minerals - their offending dropped significantly compared to the comparison group who received placebos. Cool...so a group of offenders is sent out into society, and a group of know-it-alls studies them...watching while the placebo group commits crime after crime? Gee...thats nice. I realize i need a flame retardant suit here...but what the hell. The offenders had a rough upbringing? Alot of us did. They were abused? Alot of us were. They have poor nutrition? Yeah...it is a common problem. They rob and steal to feed their drug habit? Poor things can't help it...addiction is hereditary, you know. What no one is mentioning here is personal responsibility. Rather than holding some prick responsible for beating up and robbing a little old lady, lets bring his pathetic ass in and study his brain to try to determine just why the poor fella committed his crime. Then we can spend all this money to rehab the poor darling (in a country club type facility, of course) while he sits there and laughs, sucks it all up, and offends again as soon as you spring him.

sirsholly -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 4:56:10 AM)
quote: you are much kinder then i..... quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen crucifixions in Trafalgar Square every weekend. i spoke too soon!

LadyEllen -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 5:00:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly Cool...so a group of offenders is sent out into society, and a group of know-it-alls studies them...watching while the placebo group commits crime after crime? Gee...thats nice. The offenders get released anyway, due to this rather odd idea that they no longer present a problem after the passing of a certain number of days in prison. E

JonnieBoy -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 6:30:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The offenders get released anyway, due to this rather odd idea that they no longer present a problem after the passing of a certain number of days in prison. Or the passing of LESS days and of a few bags of various "things" and the passing on of someone else's name to prove how thoroughly compliant with the law they "intend" to remain in future (Is "intent" in the screening? ) Pirate

chiaThePet -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 7:03:24 AM)
Soooooooooo, Sarah Palin could shoot Barack Obama from a hovering helicopter and then walk away from it all in Manolo Blahnik boots cause of all that blubber? Interesting. chia* (the pet)

sirsholly -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 7:09:19 AM)
quote: cause of all that blubber? damn Chia...she is not THAT fat...

chiaThePet -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 7:40:33 AM)
Might explain all that "higher calling" talk though. chia* (the pet)

olena -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 8:11:14 AM)
It is two problems that people lump together. Why someone does something and will they do it again. In the end the reasons why can be sad and unfortunate but if they have become wired to be dangerous to others then they need to be thought of in that way while getting help that hopefully one day they will not be. I do not think lighter sentences because we feel sorry or heavy sentences and ignoring them are good solutions. When people have nothing left to lose they generally stop giving a darn about other people. We basically condemn people in society to this when we do not try to help them and make sure when they get out they will struggle just for a roof over their head and food in their stomach. In terms of letting the damaged raise children. It is a line that one cannot really draw. Unless we are going to truly play Big Brother and sterilize people that we do not like their DNA makeup and their parents life history then we already have more children in need of good homes in the foster care system and orphanages around the world then quality people and research tells us those children get screwed over more then any other class.

Loki45 -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 9:48:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly Poor things. Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires. Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe! They try this with 'rap stars' and it still doesn't work. How many rap stars have you heard about still going to jail for stupid things like gun crimes and violence? (A lot.)

TheHeretic -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/6/2009 7:50:06 PM)
Y'know, LadyE, no matter how many times I see this sentiment, it never loses the power to piss me off. What a disgusting insult, to all those who have grown to fine human beings from nightmare beginnings. I don't know who these people are, or what radio station pays them to spout, but fuck them. Fuck them in the neck. Yes we are Nurture. And we are Nature. More important than either of those, we are Choice. Don't allow that to be diminished.

LadyEllen -> RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing (7/7/2009 4:26:37 AM)
These people are research scientists at various universities R - they are researching and finding this stuff. It is for we the people (or, our masters rather) to decide what to do with the information. Punishing people for their subnormal (subhuman even) status though? Sounds a bit dangerous to me as a principle. E

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