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Boxing... - 2/16/2006 6:37:04 PM   
Crazytwice


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: North of Boston
Status: offline 		Just some recent thoughts on paper ( or screen, if you will). Would love to get a discussion going about boxing and it's relation to S&M.

I recently watched Million Dollar Baby and was discussing it with a friend who is familiar with the sport and also happens to have an interest in this lifestyle. To me, there is clearly the element of sadism and masochism. It goes beyond sport; there is drive toward something primal. Perhaps its not the outcome of the match but the process that occurs while fighting. Tearing down walls, inhibitions, reaching that primal core.

I have watched Fight Club only once and didnt get it. All I saw was the brutality in the movie. Do any of you agree on my take about boxing and feel that Fight Club was trying to portray the process of reaching our primal core? I will watch the movie again, but from what I can recall, this seems to fall into place.

Which led me to consider something else. For bottoms and/or submissives, does the pain and humiliation bring you to nakedness, walls down, inhibitions lifted? Are you able to reach that inner core and from that achieve a deeper level of intimacy?

I would be very interested in hearing what others think about any of this.

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 6:47:50 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crazytwice
I have watched Fight Club only once and didnt get it. All I saw was the brutality in the movie. Do any of you agree on my take about boxing and feel that Fight Club was trying to portray the process of reaching our primal core? I will watch the movie again, but from what I can recall, this seems to fall into place.


If you are really interested in what Fight Club is about, read the book (by Chuck Palahniuk). Essentially, it is about how modern men have been emasculated by society and how men have lost the ability (and need) to hunt and produce and fight. Fight Club is about restoring the cave man that has been repressed by feminism and the "sensitive man".

It is an amazing read, and one I think that every man should be forced to read. (You are not your khakis. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.)

I do think it has some relation to what you are talking about, though it is very much focused on it from a man's p.o.v.

Taggard

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 6:57:11 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I may have a take on this that is different from others being as I have been a fighter. As a submissive I am very much into deep impact play today and I am sure that has roots in my fighting days.

Fighting for me was primal. I know that doesn't sound exactly lady like but...my Father taught me to box from the time that I could stand. The whole Golden Gloves circuit and professional boxing never held much appeal to me though. I fought in circles that were very much like fight club...biker style. It was a good way to earn money and it also filled a very large void for me. There were huge challenges that pushed you to overcome fears and forced you to think outside the box...fast. Opponents were not paired up in the same ways as in the more mainstream fighting arenas....quite frequently you were outsized...or outgendered..lol.

It did bring me in touch with something very deep inside myself. I don't know if I would say "core" exactly, for I feel that at my core is my submission and always has been. This pushed me into areas that were outside of my comfort zone. While I enjoyed the pain as a masochist...sadism has never been exactly my thing...outside the fight ring. I used to really have some major inner conflicts over the pain that I caused. What it boiled down to though was that we were all there consentually...just as in this lifestyle.

Does the pain of fighting break down walls and inhibitions? You bet it does. And even though one would normally not think of opponents in a fight as being intimate partners...there is certainly an intimacy that develops in the course of a fight. And a mutual respect.

As for the outcome...it's nice to win and get that purse, I will not try to tell you different. But sometimes it's not the win or loss as you said...it's the journey that the two of you take and the "relationship" that develops in the process. It's also in the feeling that comes after...the feeling of having conquered and endured. Hard to explain to someone who has never overcome something that seemed insurmountable.

Is it the same in the boxing circuit? That I can't answer for you as my experience was very often to stand face to face with someone I considered a friend as an opponent.

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 7:05:59 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

For bottoms and/or submissives, does the pain and humiliation bring you to nakedness, walls down, inhibitions lifted? Are you able to reach that inner core and from that achieve a deeper level of intimacy?


Speaking from a relatonship point of view.
I am not a pain slut or a person into humiliation so, no, neither of these take me there.
For myself it is more comunication, honesty, trust, love and nuturing that brings me closer to my inner core. With all these things in the works I am very easily moved to a deeper level of imtimacy and also a deeper level of trust to take more risks in physically playing.

*Brightspot

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 7:06:21 PM   
Crazytwice


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: North of Boston
Status: offline 		Thank you, Taggard. I will definately be picking that book up. I always glean more from books than from movies, but after i read the book, I'll watch the movie again.


CT

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 7:09:12 PM   
Crazytwice


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: North of Boston
Status: offline 		Mistoferin,

Beautifully put.
You put into words exactly the thoughts I was trying to convey.

Thank you,
CT

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 7:20:24 PM   
Slipstreme


Posts: 817
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline 		I have noticed through the years of wrestling with my friends, that it does touch on something primal. Although I haven't really thought about what that is, I do know it as a sign to keep on going. Something inside screaming not to stop, not to quit, and not to give in. Even when you are clearly loosing the match. The competition aspect is raw and unbridled, even in friendly combat, and I found myself continually drawn to the friends I lost against, because something in me had a need to dominate, overcome and win. Each match, even in defeat led to highly anticipating the next one. Sure it felt good to beat the others who weren't much of a match for me, but the best satisfaction came from finally winning against the winners.

Does it touch on my personal sadomasochism? I would have to say yes. Cause I've found the same excitment, the same drive, at both sides of the whip: don't quit, don't give up, keep on going.

Whether or not it tears down walls and inhibitions is beyond me since I dealt with friends. I still only do this with friends. The walls and inhibitions were long gone by that point.

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 8:11:33 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		i can not speak to boxing but it's an interesting subject you brought up.

Re: pain or humiliaion bringing me to a nakedness, i will say that severe humiliation strips me of my walls, barriers, and baggage, exposing to him the core that is me - the innermost depths of my submission.

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 8:12:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crazytwice
Tearing down walls, inhibitions, reaching that primal core.

Most athletes are masochists- they have to be. They have to force their body to endure and work far beyond normal people do and get enormous pleasure from it.

quote:

Do any of you agree on my take about boxing and feel that Fight Club was trying to portray the process of reaching our primal core?

I think that is A theme of the movie, I think it's also a good satire on the primality of man that occurs within the juxtaposition of the height of civilization. I think it's a perspective on the outcomes of repression versus expression.

quote:

For bottoms and/or submissives, does the pain and humiliation bring you to nakedness, walls down, inhibitions lifted?

I don't get anything from pain itself. Humiliation certainly brings a nakedness, but I really don't have any inhibitions that humiliation or pain would draw from me. My inhibitions are about intimacy and dependence on others, only time and security will build that.
quote:


Are you able to reach that inner core and from that achieve a deeper level of intimacy?

That's not what kink does for me. For me the greater intimacy I have, the greater I can connect (with ANYTHING, not just kink).

However, for many others, yes, the kink is a gateway towards greater intimacy.

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 8:55:35 PM   
Crazytwice


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: North of Boston
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Most athletes are masochists- they have to be. They have to force their body to endure and work far beyond normal people do and get enormous pleasure from it.


Quite right, that never occurred to me.

Hmm.... My daughter is a runner.
I don't think I'll be seeing her in quite the same way again.

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RE: Boxing... - 2/16/2006 11:22:49 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		For me it's a primal desire, especially as i can't compete any more.. I love watching boxing and especially kick boxing and I'll drop everything to watch traditional Martial Arts contests. I'm still hooked on combat....

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RE: Boxing... - 2/17/2006 12:01:11 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Boxing is real. People die boxing. You are hurt if you don’t hurt the opponent. Ernest Hemingway and Norman Mailer boxed and wrote about the fear, lustful confidence and excitement that boxing gave them. Hemingway would literally box all comers and once said his writing was nothing, but his boxing was everything. Boxing jabs at the heart.

Imagine sitting across the ring and seeing your opponent, maybe his eye swollen, blood dripping from his nose, looking right at you. The bell rings and you feel the air from his wild, desperate swing as you pull back and hit him with a left hook, trying your best to knock him out. Imagine being the person being hit. That is edge play at its finest.


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RE: Boxing... - 2/17/2006 12:12:42 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Boxing is real. People die boxing. You are hurt if you don’t hurt the opponent. Ernest Hemingway and Norman Mailer boxed and wrote about the fear, lustful confidence and excitement that boxing gave them. Hemingway would literally box all comers and once said his writing was nothing, but his boxing was everything. Boxing jabs at the heart.

Imagine sitting across the ring and seeing your opponent, maybe his eye swollen, blood dripping from his nose, looking right at you. The bell rings and you feel the air from his wild, desperate swing as you pull back and hit him with a left hook, trying your best to knock him out. Imagine being the person being hit. That is edge play at its finest.



Ahhh ES, what a graphic description and how accurate..... In another sport, (kenjutsu ~ Kumalite) can you immaging entering the arean after watching other matches and stand stripped to the waist armed with a katana and facing an opponent dressed and armed identically and knowing that in a short time of you will need stitches, possible lose body parts or be dead????? It is the greatest adrenalin blast to have one foot on life and the other on a banana peel with the abbys yawrning at your feet. Only your skill with a weapon, your mastery of self and as certain level of contempt for death himself can give you this..... Once faced nothing will ever be the same....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 2/17/2006 12:14:09 AM >

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RE: Boxing... - 2/17/2006 3:34:29 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		I boxed for a time when I was younger. I can't speak for all boxers, I'm sure there may well be masochistic ones out there, but for me it was an Alpha thing, a ritualised challenge. The pain either taken or caused was secondary. I walked into the ring determined to prove myself the better man and my opponent came in with the same attitude, only one of us could be right and like hell was I going to let it be him! If that ment soaking up the pain, or dishing it out then thats what you did. It never came to it but the desire to win was such that if it had taken killing the opponent to win I wouldn't have hesitated.

I even thought I was pretty good at the time, I hadn't been beaten till I stepped up a level and found myself against a couple of the Irish lads based in Liverpool who showed me there where definate limits to how far I could run on just an overblown ego and lack of true skill


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RE: Boxing... - 2/17/2006 7:23:24 AM   
Crazytwice


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: North of Boston
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
found myself against a couple of the Irish lads based in Liverpool who showed me there where definate limits to how far I could run on just an overblown ego and lack of true skill




Ah, gotta love those Irish folk.

You know, I come from a long line of uptight Irish folk, albeit a great sense of humor and charming to boot, but uptight nevertheless. Perhaps the only way to move those walls is to bash them in.


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RE: Boxing... - 2/17/2006 8:31:05 AM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crazytwice
Ah, gotta love those Irish folk.

You know, I come from a long line of uptight Irish folk, albeit a great sense of humor and charming to boot, but uptight nevertheless. Perhaps the only way to move those walls is to bash them in.


I consider myself a Scot but the familys roots are over in Tyrone, so I've a touch of the balarney stone in me too.

Uptight or not those two showed me the diffrence in skill between just being better than average (me at the time) and actualy good at boxing.

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RE: Boxing... - 4/24/2006 1:10:43 PM   
DrSteveB


Posts: 11
Joined: 4/21/2006
Status: offline 		I've wrestled & boxed, and it is definitely mixed in with sex & sensuality for me. I like the physicality including some degree of pain (receive & give).  I think there are folks who get off more on the physical/actual (pain?) and those who prefer the fantasy/role play (humiliation?). I came into the BDSM/Alt scene from liking to wrestle and box with women as part of play. Me... I don't get or like verbal or fantasy or role-play dom/sub/humiliation. I do get actual physical play/reality... orgasm control, restraint, giving and receving touch/massage/caresses and also pins, arm bars, scissors, punches. each to their own.

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RE: Boxing... - 4/24/2006 2:45:34 PM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		I don't like box!

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RE: Boxing... - 4/24/2006 4:34:54 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Interestingly enough, even though I love to incorporate elements of struggle and physical overpowering of my slave into our play, I cannot wrap my mind around the concept of  combative sports like boxing.... for too many years, the notion of someone putting their hands on me in an aggressive (or even non-compliant) manner was a red flag to make the decision whether or not to escalate to deadly force, which cops should have drilled into them throughout their training and career...hesitate and you are in danger, over-react and you're hung out to dry.

To this day, I still pretty much think of physical violence in that context, and have a hard time watching people play at it in a less serious mode.


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RE: Boxing... - 4/24/2006 4:35:29 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

For me it's a primal desire, especially as i can't compete any more.. I love watching boxing and especially kick boxing and I'll drop everything to watch traditional Martial Arts contests. I'm still hooked on combat....


Wow..... I can't believe I missed this thread - One of my favorite subjects. Been around the fight game my whole life.  Went to high school and joined the Marines with two of the finest fighters ever to come out of Northern California. One of them went nine rounds with Hector Camacho {lost and made 40k} and the other { after four years in the Marines} moved to Detroit and joined Emanuel Steward over at the Cronk street gym and got paid twelve-hundred dollars a week to take shots from Tommy Hearns. Once in a while he got to fight on the under-card if someone else was ''scratched'' for medical reasons. My father was also financial donor to one the most well known clubs in Nor Cal

Personally... I think the sport is great. It develops self-discipline and confidence and like no other I've ever seen. And with all the ''road work'', there is no other sport that will put you in better, more complete physical shape.

As for my favorites.... Roy Jones and Parnell ''Sweet Pea'' Whitaker take the cake for two equal but different reasons. Roy Jones for his marvelous hand speed and ''Sweat Pea''  for his elusiveness and the brilliant tactician he is/was.


 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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