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RE: Boxing... - 4/26/2006 4:44:37 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

The other is the Mike Tyson etc version where the prefight talk is about rattling someones brain stem around inside their skull till they are knocked out, unconscious maybe dead and then eating the fingers of their children (after an appetizer of half ear ala carte).


No hard time here, but anyone who tries to denounce boxing as a negative, barbaric sport, always infuses Tyson as their scapegoat. Tyson is not the rule, he’s the exception.

You could make a similar argument to say the NBA is full of trash-talking, barbaric, jackasses, using Ron Artest as your shinning star, but then like Tyson he’s the exception rather than the rule. 

 Boxing is a tacticians sport. Lewis and Holyfield have always proved that, fair and square, constantly beating those who where bigger, stronger and faster.

Now if you want to talk about violence and death.....crashing a car into wall at 180 mph, might take us there a lot faster.  

To get back to the OP’s post – Like Steel…. I see no correlation between the two.  


 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/26/2006 4:47:57 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Boxing... - 4/26/2006 4:01:48 PM   
MstrTiger


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: UK
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There are some gay BDSM fetishist people who see fighting as very erotic I think some just like it for all the sweaty muscular body contact etc, it is easy to see how people might look on it as being very homoerotic. There are some gay subs who like to have the sh*t beaten out of themselves and some gay doms who like to do it to them, they call it ‘agro’ they do it as part of different role play scenarios, I am not sure if it is just a UK thing or if people are into it in other places also.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Boxing... - 4/27/2007 7:40:45 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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I could have sworn there were replies to this thread from today.....just a few minutes ago....what happened?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MstrTiger)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Boxing... - 4/28/2007 6:15:10 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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TallDarkAndWitty, I don't think emasculation is a theme of the movie, just like I don't think the movie has anything to do with violence. Sure, this stuff is on the surface, but it isn't what it's about. If anything, emasculation as a theme is just a symptom, not the disease itself. And, while I haven't read the book yet, I suspect I will find the same there; otherwise, it's probably wasted paper for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Most athletes are masochists- they have to be. They have to force their body to endure and work far beyond normal people do and get enormous pleasure from it.


Forcing your body to work beyond the usual limits doesn't have to entail masochism or pleasure. But, yeah, there are substantiated reports of people that are addicted, in every meaningful sense of the word (including the clinical sense), to the rush they get from training; which causes long-term damage and impaired athletic performance, as the rush gets to be more important than the progress or the results.

It's a legal high, just like they use physical pain to treat refractory depression in some places where they can't legally prescribe opioids.

quote:

I think that is A theme of the movie, I think it's also a good satire on the primality of man that occurs within the juxtaposition of the height of civilization. I think it's a perspective on the outcomes of repression versus expression.


Nice analysis. The movie was also covered in a different thread, as I'm sure you know, so I'll try not to repeat myself.

There is also the bit about how society is getting to a point where humans just can't keep up. Our fairly recent neocortical development are nowhere near the complexity required to deal with the most relevant fields of human endeavour in any significant depth. Hopefully, we will "soon" find a means to evolve ourselves to a level where we can enhance our mental capacity and transcend humanity.

"Height" of civilization might not be entirely appropriate; civilization looks pretty much the same as it always has, which is partly related to this point: our wiring takes ages to change, and our societies do, too.

The juxtaposition is certainly there, though. It is pretty clear that some of us, maybe all of us, just aren't suited to the society we live in; or, rather, society just isn't suited to our needs as people. But, then again, throwing it all away and starting from scratch doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon, nor does it fit very well with human nature to do so.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Boxing... - 4/28/2007 6:21:52 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

for too many years, the notion of someone putting their hands on me in an aggressive (or even non-compliant) manner was a red flag to make the decision whether or not to escalate to deadly force, which cops should have drilled into them throughout their training and career...hesitate and you are in danger, over-react and you're hung out to dry.


Seems familiar. I still have this wiring, more or less, and don't particularly indend to do anything about it.

quote:

To this day, I still pretty much think of physical violence in that context, and have a hard time watching people play at it in a less serious mode.


I don't think it's fair to call it a "less serious" mode. That's why the gloves are there: they provide the thin line between manslaughter and sports. Not that I like watching it myself, either, generally.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Boxing... - 4/28/2007 6:47:47 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

From what I know there are two "types" of boxing. One is the sport that could use better padded gloves, padded helmets shorter rounds and shorter bouts with technical expertise and technique being the focal point.


More padding would probably prolong the fights, which might be just as harmful unless one, as you suggest, shortens the rounds, which will lead to a loss of popularity, I guess.

The technical expertise and technique is already catered to. Very much so. These people spend an enormous amount of time perfecting both. But there aren't very many moves in boxing, compared to many other things. If you want to get more technical, you will have to look at Muay Thai or somesuch, and if you think boxing is brutal, I don't think you'll like that any better.

quote:

The other is the Mike Tyson etc version where the prefight talk is about rattling someones brain stem around inside their skull till they are knocked out, unconscious maybe dead and then eating the fingers of their children (after an appetizer of half ear ala carte).


Mike Tyson has issues. Some people do. One of them got to be a top boxer. Big deal.

And boxing is about those things. Winning effectively speaking comes from either landing more blows than your opponent, which involves lots of blunt trauma, or knocking them out. Mostly, you want to rattle their brains about, because that is pretty much the only way to bring them to the point of a KO when wearing huge gloves. That, or harmful levels of physical exhaustion.

This is part of why I don't do boxing. Another part is the aggression needed to go after someone with the intent of bruising their brains to the point where they pass out.

quote:

There is danger in any sport and in everyday life. Most sports objective is not to pummel the opponent.


Yet they still manage to cause a lot of injuries, don't they? Forgetting about hooligans and such for the moment, football causes tons of injuries. Boxing causes long-term damage to the body (pugilistic dementia, retinal damage, etc.) as well, which is why I prefer the martial arts.

I've seen people go at each other with katanas that have been tested in cutting things far tougher than the human body, where the participants are to stop less than an inch from the skin and only if not blocked or deflected. I haven't seen anyone killed or seriously injured yet, although I'm sure there have been some, even in the modern era.

All the people I know who have been into martial arts, whether all the way or just a little bit, are still in pretty good health, although some Tae Kwon Do schools have had similar issues to football, due to not using resistance properly.

All the people I know who have been into non-combative sports in a serious way have had one or more surgeries by now, while the others just have "common" health problems that oddly enough don't seem as common to the MA crowd.

quote:

Still, man (males) are a bit violent and brutal and while they should have their "sports" must the most vicious be rewarded?


Lots of women enjoy watching boxing too, and there are women's boxing matches as well. Not all men are violent and/or brutal, and I'd say the sexes differ in this respect only with regards to average muscle mass, preferred form of confrontation and social conditioning. With the equality movement, it's been evening out a lot. Note also that women tend to be more vicious than men in the social arena, and frequently choose non-physical means of confrontation. Poisoning and legal attacks have been fairly popular.

quote:

Pro-boxing ( Tyson style etc) and Ultimate Fighting is not as much sport as it is just barbaric and doesnt really reflect a civil society does it?


Define civil and barbaric in gender-neutral terms, please.

And when did civility become a goal of society, anyway? Society is there to allow individuals to cooperate better; anything else is just people trying to take control over other people without their consent.

quote:

Lastly, I always find it amusing (hypocritical and disgusting) that many on the far right that see a little spanking fetish as "violent and horrid, illegal and a sin" thrill at blood at the more violent matches.


That's conservativism for you. Doesn't have much to do with political leanings, although conservatives tend to want to enforce their views on others, leading to right-wing or far left leanings.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Boxing... - 4/28/2007 6:56:10 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colosubseeking

The rules are designed to be as close to an actual "fight" as possible, while puting the combatants at minimal risk for injury or death.


These two goals are mutually exclusive, and UFC is no different than any other kind of sports fighting in this regard. They just make safer tradeoffs.

I can't recall the rules offhand, but I do recall having noted that several of them are some of my will-definitely-do's in a fight, and most of them are either irrelevant to me winning or things I wouldn't hold back on if I had an opening.

quote:

People get injured when they take a hit, get dazed, and get back up and are unable to defend themselves properly.


I agree. If the gloves came off in boxing, it would be the first guy to land a punch that would floor the other guy, pretty much, and people would not get back up to aggravate their injuries. A punch can deliver quite a jarring impact.

As I recall from stuff about head trauma, suffering another trauma after the first is a lot worse than suffering the combined impact once.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to colosubseeking)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Boxing... - 4/28/2007 7:07:43 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

Or no, wait, probably I will have to pay for it unless you are a multi millionare which I seriously doubt, so it would be dumped on society or elevate everyones insurance.


Insurance companies make money; that's their job. They're not here to look out for you in any way. Your premium will probably go up if you do combative sports.

As for dumping on society, how about all the people out there having children when they shouldn't, or people who smoke, or any other activity? Society is a tradeoff between the individual and all other individuals. Restricting individual freedom is incompatible with having a reasonably free society, and prohibition rarely works well, so we try to channel things into useful or less harmful forms. If you don't like it, I'm told a large boat in international waters will do in a pinch.

Societies in the west are generally ruled by pseudo-democratic means. That is, the masses determine a fair bit about what goes and what doesn't. And the masses like their sports. Football causes a lot more injuries than combative sports on the whole, if you consider the whole apparatus around it, and wastes a lot more resources.

quote:

Maybe we should just go one step further and have sword fights, duels, death matches between animals and humans.


Animals can't consent to participation in combative entertainment/sport, so that's out.

Apart from that, why not? If people are capable of making an informed decision about the risks they are taking, they should be allowed to do as they please, somewhere they won't disturb anyone else. Just don't make it a recognized means of settling disputes.

If anyone were to challenge me to a sword fight or other form of duel which could reasonably be assumed to involve risk of serious injury or death, or which involved stakes that I was not comfortable with losing, I'd turn it down. Simple as that.

quote:

Nothing like the evolution of "sport" right? Hey anything to make sure he's "happy".


Ballet has evolved to the point where by 30 years of age, your body will be so broken that it can't be patched up anymore. Combative sports aren't that much worse in this regard, although boxing pushes the envelope due to the drawn-out nature of the thing.

And, yes, making sure your child is happy is generally a priority for parents. And we don't make lots of rules about what qualifies as acceptable means of making them happy that we impose on parents. I'd say a good talk about the consequences would be in order, and a child shouldn't be pressured into sports IMO, but we let parents make any number of other decisions on their behalf.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MsMacComb)
Profile   Post #: 48
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