Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first?

Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 2:50:59 PM)
Assume that Domme and sub are attracted to each other and have been talking for some while, in a broadly vanilla, friendly, sort of way. Which side is to make the first move, thereafter? The reason I ask is that I've come to realise that there seem to be two entirely different assumptions regarding this. At one pole, I know that some dominants will give a command, bluntly, and watch to see how it's taken. They'll see it as their role, as it were, to 'get the dynamic moving'. Other dominants, though, are entirely the opposite. They'll wait till the sub offers strong signs of submission - and that repeatedly. It's important to them, I'm told, in order for them to start feeling dominant towards the sub. I have a funny feeling that I'm not asking the right question here. If your intuition says that might be true, please do say so.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 3:12:36 PM)
Hmmm... Well, for me, it's pretty formulaic. Our first conversations are just conversations -- we discuss, but don't belabor, but, your right, at some point, someone has to make the first move. I tend to mention during the 2nd or 3rd casual meeting how the actual transition will take place, and I approach this in the same manner that the elders of the church I was ordained in handled things... if you wish to train (yield), you will ask (kneel). For us it is even as formal as "You must offer yourself three separate times." I have a ritual response for each request, though if I am -not- going to accept a servant, I won't start the ritual, I'll let hir know right out of the gate, during one of the discussion meetings, that I do not desire to go any further. I think that, for me, having a ritual for the transition is important. It is, in a sense, at least for me, like an initiation. It is also something with a lot of gravity, and serving me has a lot of formality and protocols, so I think that the formal, ritualized acceptance of a servant helps us to make that transition to being in our new headspace with one another. So.. I guess it's kind of communal. I say what I expect, and the potential servant offers it up, if xhe's ready to take on everything it entails. If I'm not in a place where I can offer a collar, I don't meet (in most cases), I say flat-out that I'm not interested, and I don't provide the necessary information to begin the ritual. If I present the information, then the potential servant makes the last (binding per the terms we agreed upon), choice to yield. DC

Politesub53 -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 3:33:13 PM)
Been there done that Peon. After much conversation on how it may or may not affect the friendship we had, it was a mutual choice to give it a go. At [present I find myself watching body langauge and behavior patterns to see if the Lady Im chatting to is Dominant or not. I think the most important thing to establish first, is is there a basic chemistry, as a couple. Even if she is Dominant and I am submissive, without that chemistry it would just be play, and not a relationship.

Lockit -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 3:34:57 PM)
As things evolve into an interest in d/s, we both might show parts of our personality but before anything goes into anything, I talk to them about it. I make sure we are on the same page and understand one another before I do anything. I have met so many who don't think I am dominant because I don't come off dominant from the start and expect protocol type things or push my will. I don't feel I have a right and I have no desire to do so with just anyone or right off the bat. Anyone expecting such tends to be someone I would not fit with. I believe in having a foundation of some sort and that comes in knowing the person. I do not expect submission and don't wish to be expected to dominate someone I don't know well enough to dominante.

Blaakmaan -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 3:54:34 PM)
I think that's an interesting question. After a little reflection on the issue (and I do mean a little!), I think it can go either way. I think, without much evidence, I admit, that ordinarily the Dominant/Master will make "the first move," to see if the slave/submissive accepts and yields to his or her dominance. I don't know if your average Dominant/Master (if there is such a thing as an average Dominant/Master) would want to attempt to assert dominance over a slave/submissive without some indication that his or her dominance will be accepted. Seems like a good way to get one's feelings hurt... However, that does not have to be the case. In my limited experience, it has gone both ways. With one of my girls, after a good bit of back-and-forth conversation, I pretty much claimed her. In fact, I was much more aggressive than I ordinarily am. It's also gone the other way. My first girl approached me, which indicated to me that she was at least open to the possibility of submitting to me, if we were compatible. So, I think it can go either way. And even before the "first move" is made, the Master/Dominant will often attempt to assert some level of control, and the slave/submissive will often send some signals of potential submission to that dominance, if they are both interested in pursuing a relationship. Look at it like a tango. It can be hard to tell who is actually leading. If I were a submissive, I would probably try to get the Master/Dominant to make the first move. It would probably better fit his or her Master/Dom/Domme self-image. [;)]

LadyPact -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 3:55:11 PM)
I'm not entirely sure that I'm on either side of the pole. I'm seeing this as an either/or question and I don't think Mine is an either/or answer. I do want to see signs of submission first. However, they don't have to be strong and they don't have to be repeated. It can be something soft and simple, such as the lowering of the eyes during a conversation or the certain turn of a phrase. It can be something very subtle that most people wouldn't even particularly call submission. It can even be something in the air. The energy that I get from a person. When one of these things happen, I absolutely zone in on it and take advantage of the opportunity. Yes, I will give a command or make a request just to see if it will be carried out. I'll determine how to progress from there. I'll access how it was carried out. Was it done promptly with eagerness or was he unsure about the action directed? How comfortable did he seem when he did it? How important to him was it to carry it out to please Me? Oh, and I'll definitely probe him for how he felt about being told what he was to do if I get a positive response. If it wasn't favorable, I'll apologize for being forward and sit back to see if another similar opportunity arises. One thing I don't often do is outright ask someone if they feel submissive towards Me. Not unless I'm already pretty sure of the answer.

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 3:58:00 PM)
Wow. This is quite different to the way I've imagined it. So far, the three of you - Calla, PS and Lockit - give the impression that you're picturing a stage further on than I've got to, yet. In some way, the three of you seem to be talking about a fairly formal sort of negotiation between D and s. I've only got as far as the stage before that, really - where she and I meet, like each other well enough . . . . and then comes the awkward part. I suppose, frankly, I don't know how to flirt in a D/s way. I don't know which side gets the D/s dynamic rolling, right there at the very start. (I have to say that I'm simply not capable of getting to know a woman in a D/s way from the outset. It has to be pretty much vanilla first, if it's ever going to be serious.) The one time I tried it - that is, to get a D/s vibe going - in real life and face-to-face, I made a pig's ear of it. Suffice to say, nothing worked out. Please don't ask me what I did wrong - it's too cringingly embarrassing to recall, never mind write about.

Politesub53 -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:03:28 PM)
Peon, part of the answer for you lies in Lady P`s reply. Try lowering your eyes a little when you flirt with someone, and a cheeky "Yes Ma`am/Boss" into the conversation. Do the gentlemanly things such as holding doors open, but do it a bit quicker than normal. If all that fails, just say " Are you going to spank me or what " [8D]

Lockit -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:16:43 PM)
Well Peon, for me it isn't always a defining moment with a serious talk, but most often many defining moments in many conversations. We will get to know one another to a point where we each would like to enter into some dynamic's such as what we call one another, accounting to me or doing some things I ask them to do. Once we have agreed to go in this direction and understand what we each may want, we evolve into more, evaluating things as we go. For me there is no sudden change. Some have tried to direct things and at times I have allowed that to a point, mostly to see where they would go or what they might be up to. Most never get past this stage as they prove to be someone I would not wish to deal with any further. It is my pre-consideration stage I have talked about. When I lead, it tends to go well, but if they are not really wishing to submit and are focused on things I don't consider submission and more kinky as things evolve, then they really aren't being led. That is why I have started certain threads. When I have someone I know is being real with me, it is a whole different situation and they will get much farther and as we go I take more of a leadership role. It isn't rocket science to see what might be considered dominant or submissive traits all along, but whether I allow them to manifest into something is another story.

SthrnCom4t -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:19:01 PM)
Peon - thanks for a great question/topic! Here is my theory on the matter :) I've observed two types of people; Pursuer, and Pursuee. (I'm getting a spell-check light so maybe I'm making up a word <go Me!>) I don't think this is orientation specific. I know both Dominants and submissives who like to pursue. Myself, I tend to enjoy being pursued. It's unlikely I'm going to push my Dominance at someone unless they've given indication I've inspired their submissive side. When I was new and getting into the scene as a submissive, I waited to see if the Dominant had the confidence to step up to the plate. <grin> My opinion is, if you have an interest, and you're not sure of the other person's expectation; ask. Asking is being proactive, and then there is no question how to proceed. It can be done respectfully, and not be perceived in a 'do me' manner. You are either clarifying if They would like to see your submission first, or that you have an interest, should They decide to pursue. It's nice when that naturally just 'clicks', but having the interest, respect, and strength of character to communicate on the subject speaks well of you no matter which side of the kneel you are on.

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:27:00 PM)
LP and PS, I did the lowering of eyes thing, but I think I overdid it. I think she thought I was a bit deranged in some way. I even did things like 'Can I use the toilet?' - to which her reply (with a slightly worried expression on her face) was "Yes. The door's right there. You used it on the way in - don't you remember?" LP - no, whatever I did, she took no advantage of it. Not at all. I think, at bottom, we just didn't click, so there was nothing I could do that would have 'worked', anyway. On reflection, I think she may have been feeding me horseshit. She invited me to believe that she'd been a 24/7, naked slave to a master and mistress for some years in Italy. Then she'd had a full-time lesbian relationship. Now, though, she'd decided that she'd had enough of all that and wanted to be a dominant to a male sub. Basically, she didn't know what she wanted. Sigh. She was fruitcake, wasn't she? Typical. Just my luck. Well, she was too young and had an extraordinarily big nose, so maybe it was a lucky escape.

Lockit -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:28:12 PM)
I just thought of something else here. In person and online can be different. In person I can see those who wish to submit to me without a doubt. I can see their intent much clearer. I recently changed my profile to not seeking anything online as I do far better in person but that caused a lot of problems and I changed my profile back and then deal with the rest. In other words I cover my ass with my profile as it is! Not seeking didn't say enough! People are mentioning the lowering of eyes when speaking and that sort of thing. Even with someone I know things could never work out in being that relationship I seek, doesn't mean I don't enjoy knowing that they find me someone they would love to submit to and I have my moments of where I enjoy a bit of play or dominant type talk with them. I guess you could call it d/s flirting! lol When I see this taking place I do communicate with them and set the stage a bit so I guess one could say I am being dominant in doing so or taking charge of the situation, but I see that as different than someone I would consider in a relationship.

sirsholly -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:32:55 PM)
quote: Peon, part of the answer for you lies in Lady P`s reply. Try lowering your eyes a little when you flirt with someone, and a cheeky "Yes Ma`am/Boss" into the conversation. Do the gentlemanly things such as holding doors open, but do it a bit quicker than normal. yep. he will assert his dominance, after receiving the signals from me

SaharahEve -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:45:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Peon, part of the answer for you lies in Lady P`s reply. Try lowering your eyes a little when you flirt with someone, and a cheeky "Yes Ma`am/Boss" into the conversation. Do the gentlemanly things such as holding doors open, but do it a bit quicker than normal. These are subtle, yet effective gestures :) Though, the "Yes, Ma'am" doesn't have to be said in a cheeky, amusing tone. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 If all that fails, just say " Are you going to spank me or what " [8D] LOL

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 4:58:55 PM)
Blaakman, If I were a submissive, I would probably try to get the Master/Dominant to make the first move. It would probably better fit his or her Master/Dom/Domme self-image. [;)] Yes, exactly, that thought had occurred to me. I had assumed that femdom/malesub was at least something of a role reversal. She makes the moves, I comply. But, then, on reflection about the realities of gender relations today - with a femdom, I thought I'd need to make it very clear that was ready to be submissive, because she wouldn't (I thought) be used to that from men generally. Damn, it's awkward. Lockit, When I lead, it tends to go well, but if they are not really wishing to submit and are focused on things I don't consider submission and more kinky as things evolve, then they really aren't being led. That is why I have started certain threads. When I have someone I know is being real with me, it is a whole different situation and they will get much farther and as we go I take more of a leadership role. I look out for anything from 'her' that might be a leadership role, and try to make sure that I 'jump to it'. Nooooo, what I love about being submissive - never mind what I like to do in bed, isn't going to come into it. I need to be assured, first, that she wants to dominate. It'd feel like a sham otherwise. The one thing that would ruin it for me, utterly, is any sense coming from her of 'Let's screw, and I'll pretend to be dominant'. That would be just too depressing to handle. Southern Comfort, The way you talk makes me think of how it should be, if people were blunter with each other. I guess I'm not that blunt, not really. I have to have some sign that it's OK to be blunt, first. I think, basically, I was with a woman who wasn't sure of herself, and even less sure of me. There's this feeling in me that I have trouble getting past. I'm a man, and bigger than her, stronger . . . If she's not confident as a dominant, it's very hard work for me. It gives me bloody migraines. I can say, something like, "I will do as you tell me. But you have to have the nerve to tell me" . Because I can't give that nerve to her - she has to have it somewhere in her, and be able to take it.

LadyPact -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 5:05:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer LP and PS, I did the lowering of eyes thing, but I think I overdid it. I think she thought I was a bit deranged in some way. I even did things like 'Can I use the toilet?' - to which her reply (with a slightly worried expression on her face) was "Yes. The door's right there. You used it on the way in - don't you remember?" LP - no, whatever I did, she took no advantage of it. Not at all. I think, at bottom, we just didn't click, so there was nothing I could do that would have 'worked', anyway. On reflection, I think she may have been feeding me horseshit. She invited me to believe that she'd been a 24/7, naked slave to a master and mistress for some years in Italy. Then she'd had a full-time lesbian relationship. Now, though, she'd decided that she'd had enough of all that and wanted to be a dominant to a male sub. Basically, she didn't know what she wanted. Sigh. She was fruitcake, wasn't she? Typical. Just my luck. Well, she was too young and had an extraordinarily big nose, so maybe it was a lucky escape. Not to turn your thread in another direction, peon, but for all of the complaints about there being issues with switches or someone who has been on the other side of the kneel, this is one of the huge positives that comes into play. Those who have been served, know how to serve and the same is true of the opposite. I'm not saying that everyone has the same kind of protocol or there's only one type of dynamic out there. Instead, I'm saying these are the kind of hints that make this kind of flirting easy to pick up on if they have that experience. Had it been Me, there are a few examples right here on this thread that I would have caught on to if I was interested in someone as a submissive. Politesub was absolutely correct about the door and the use of Ma'am. (I know, some don't like it, but some do and it helps to set the tone or give one the opportunity for correction.) With lowering the eyes, I can either grant the opportunity to raise them or tell someone how good they look with them lowered. Asking to use the restroom is a golden opportunity not to just answer yes, but to smile and say of course you have My permission. From the other side, don't just ask. Instead, ask in a way that is more about the permission than the outcome. May I be allowed to leave you to use the restroom rather than can I would have been a hint the size of an anvil.

Venatrix -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 5:21:54 PM)
All right, I know I'm supposed to be staying off the boards, but you can't quit being a junkie overnight. I must be the anti-domme, because asking me if you can go pee, lowering your eyes, and calling me ma'am aren't going to do ANYTHING to make me want to dominate you. I'm so low-protocol, I'm practically no-protocol. Having you follow simple instructions (and I would keep them simple at the beginning) is more my style. If someone balks at a request I make, I'm not necessarily going to write him off as a submissive if we keep in contact, but I probably wouldn't make any further effort to dominate him. He'd have to step up to the plate (baseball metaphor, for the Brits on the board) of his own volition after that. At that point, I'd assess how I felt about his submission and then decide whether I wanted to go further than being friends. In short, Peon, there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

DemonKia -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 5:48:16 PM)
FR, after read thru . . . . So, some of what I think of this is that pursuer / pursuee thing mentioned earlier in the thread, which varies with the individual pursuant data points, regardless of orientations . . . . I really took to Wiseman's little suggestion in 'SM 101' that one can give tiny directives & watch how the other responds to determine something about the other's D or s nature . ... . & I'm sufficiently asshole-ish & inquisitive & controlling that I try this out, when inclined . . . . . If the other does as I say ('sit down', as an example), that delights me & I amplify on it if it seems worth pursuing . .. . . I also am a big fan of that 'start smaller than small, go lighter than light & slower than slow' kinda thing, too . . . . . But mostly what was playing in my head as I read thru this thread was flashes of 'Top Hat' . . . . It's a delicate dance, this romance thing, with or without the BDSM . . . . & it's a bit more difficult to do it backward & in heels . . . . . [sm=dancing.gif] & yep, feelin' silly, but that's way better than morose & melancholic, so I'm grateful for the little graces . . . . .

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 6:17:34 PM)
I must be the anti-domme . . . I have to disagree, V. From what I know of you, you domme in your own style. You say, 'I'm so low-protocol, I'm practically no-protocol" . . . yet, what you probably have is a protocol - just one of a less common kind. The thing is, will the sub be aware of your protocol? It's less likely, the more unusual that protocol is.

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/8/2009 6:20:47 PM)
If the other does as I say ('sit down', as an example), that delights me & I amplify on it if it seems worth pursuing . .. . . I also am a big fan of that 'start smaller than small, go lighter than light & slower than slow' kinda thing, too . . . . . See, I'd have loved that. If the aforementioned had done something like saying "Sit down" - whatever tone of voice - wow. I'd have known where I was. Not a big thing, but simple and clear . . . .

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