RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first?

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:20:25 AM)
That's interesting. I'd never thought to divide the femdom impulse into the two aspects of 'being served' and 'dominating' before. I must admit, my one-time fantasy was always for the former. It came to include the latter only in the last few years or so. But, it was pretty clear that my Ms X wasn't in either category, towards me, anyway.

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:32:16 AM)
I'm very much at the stage that I no longer offer second chances, and my ability to forgive and forget becomes ever more limited. I think, with your new-found attitudes and policies regarding meeting men, V, those sorts of problems will arise less often, or even not at all. You wore flip-flops with a top hat? No wonder she wasn't interested. Well, she was a Northerner. You can't expect them to have any taste. Actually, I think it was my spangled thong that put her off. And why are you using such big font? Are you and Mrs. Palmer spending too much time together? It's not possible to spend too much time with Mrs Palmer just as, indeed, it's not possible to spend too much time impressing Mr Mirror with my superb musculature. However, to answer your question: I'm using a large font because I have a large penis.

LadyPact -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:35:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix You wore flip-flops with a top hat? No wonder she wasn't interested. And why are you using such big font? Are you and Mrs. Palmer spending too much time together? That's the end of the intelligent discussion for Me. I want pics!

Lockit -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:38:59 AM)
LOL... Peon is a picture tease! But then I may have to rethink that... he did show his toes didn't he?

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:39:09 AM)
In order for me to control him, he had to accede authority to me first. Even with that, he still is effectively controlling himself on my behalf. So my dominance over him is only enabled by his own submission. His willing submission had to come first.

Venatrix -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:41:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I think, with your new-found attitudes and policies regarding meeting men, V, those sorts of problems will arise less often, or even not at all. Absolutely, given that I'm no longer looking. quote: However, to answer your question: I'm using a large font because I have a large penis. I sense that there is a non sequitur in there, somewhere.

daintydimples -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:45:21 AM)
But but....were they "dress" flops? dd

LaughingFemDom -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:52:45 AM)
Great answer Venatrix, you said it perfectly. I am definately a Dom in the "approach me first" camp. If a sub doesn't have enough backbone to reach out for what he wants, then I am not at all interested in him. I have perfectly clear instructions on my profile of what to do to to appropriately capture my attention, and if a subbie follows my instructions to the letter, that is a very promising start. I don't need to teach my subs a thousand and one rules....there is only one that matters to me. Just do it my way.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 11:58:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer A chore that big (and, indeed, appallingly onerous), I think, is something to be saved for when the relationship is already in first gear at least. Indeed, but what happens if you mis-read the stage that you are at? She thinks it's in first gear and you think it isn't. She makes the request, you turn her down. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can assure you that having a request turned down means that I would no longer be receptive to a d/s relationship with that person, even though we might be able to remain friends. We might even be able to have vanilla sex together, but that would be as far as I would allow it to go. I'm very much at the stage that I no longer offer second chances, and my ability to forgive and forget becomes ever more limited. I hope you folks won't mind the intrusion of a male dominant here but I have to ask a question: Venatrix, we all speak of how important communication is especially when it comes to clearing up misconceptions. When a submissive turns down a request from you, would it not be better to sit down and ask "Why are you turning down this request?" and get their answer before making the decision to go non-receptive to a D/s dynamic? To me, the answer of "No, I won't do that does not necessarily indicate an unwillingness to obey nor is it an indication that they do not want to go further with you. They might indeed want to go further with you but, using your own example, the submissive may feel that the relationship is at an earlier stage than you do and hasn't caught up to you yet. Would not the question and that answer then lead to a discussion of where the dynamic is for both of you and whether or not you both want it to go further? Or am I just wrong and this dance is different between male dominants and female submissives? Waves to the luscious Lockit, pulls her close and hugs the stuffing out of her in a gentle manner.

Venatrix -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 12:14:17 PM)
Actually, I was writing with a couple of specific occurrences in mind. One was with someone I met in New York. We had agreed to meet half-way for a weekend together and New York seemed the best choice. I had indicated that I was quite keen to attend an award-winning Korean vegetarian restaurant when we were there. He said he wasn't interested. That coloured my impression of him as being one of those subs who only wanted to submit on his terms. I did not think it was a huge deal for him to sacrifice his choice of eating establishment for one evening, for the sake of making me happy. The weekend was not a success. The second time, I had asked someone to read a series of novels. He declined. At that point, we had already discussed what was likely to take place when it came to our first playtime. He was up for being sodomised by my strap-on in a public play space. His reasoning was that we didn't have enough of a d/s relationship where I could direct him to read books, yet we had enough of a d/s relationship where he could get his kink on. I'm still friends with this person, I love him dearly, but we will never have a d/s relationship. As my mother always used to say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Subs do a great deal of talking about how submissive they are, but very, very few actually deliver. When I find the one who does deliver, hang on to your hats, it's going to be an amazing ride.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 12:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix That coloured my impression of him as being one of those subs who only wanted to submit on his terms. I did not think it was a huge deal for him to sacrifice his choice of eating establishment for one evening, for the sake of making me happy. I have to say... that's not even D/s! That's just basic nilla dating -- be a gentleman and make the lady happy. What a maroon.

DesFIP -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 12:23:49 PM)
I'm a great believer in you clicking, chemistry wise. If there isn't any chemistry, then I'm not sure you can get a relationship going at that time. Doesn't mean you can't be friends and maybe down the road, when you're in different places things might be different. But I like the dom to lead however in non kink ways. I didn't want the first meet to be with me handing him my panties upfront or anything like that. However saying the first meet was to be at ten, at a coffee shop in my area, was a small way of starting. He made the first suggestion but left room for me to say I couldn't get there till later. At one point, since we were ldr, he told me to pick a restaurant I hadn't ever been to before. Even better, when I gave the wrong directions and we wound up a couple of miles out of the way, he was fine with it and found his way back.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 12:32:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix Actually, I was writing with a couple of specific occurrences in mind. One was with someone I met in New York. We had agreed to meet half-way for a weekend together and New York seemed the best choice. I had indicated that I was quite keen to attend an award-winning Korean vegetarian restaurant when we were there. He said he wasn't interested. That coloured my impression of him as being one of those subs who only wanted to submit on his terms. I did not think it was a huge deal for him to sacrifice his choice of eating establishment for one evening, for the sake of making me happy. The weekend was not a success. The second time, I had asked someone to read a series of novels. He declined. At that point, we had already discussed what was likely to take place when it came to our first playtime. He was up for being sodomised by my strap-on in a public play space. His reasoning was that we didn't have enough of a d/s relationship where I could direct him to read books, yet we had enough of a d/s relationship where he could get his kink on. I'm still friends with this person, I love him dearly, but we will never have a d/s relationship. As my mother always used to say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Subs do a great deal of talking about how submissive they are, but very, very few actually deliver. When I find the one who does deliver, hang on to your hats, it's going to be an amazing ride. You make a good point by the examples you give above. But both of these examples had other issues going on. In the first case, I would have asked the submissive why they were not interested. If they said "I have an allergy to the ingredients in Korean food", then I would not have seen their answer as being indicative of them only wanting to submit on their terms. After an answer such as what I have given above, I would have definitely told them they needed to find a better way of phrasing things as their answer could indicate a desire to do things their own way or that they are not seeing this weekend in the same way as I am...I dominate and they submit. In the second case, I see exactly where you are coming from...if you want the fun, then you take the work or as I have put it, if all you want to submit to is what is easy and doesn't put a constraint or any sort of difficulty on you, then you are the one who is structuring the dynamic...not "we" and certainly not I. Of course, as I said, I am dealing from the perspective of a male dominant who deals with female submissives. To take it a bit further then...I'd suggested to one female submissive that I went to see in order to spend time with each other...get to know each other and see if we wanted to continue on...that I would like to go to a certain place...and she took me there. This same submissive made one thing...other than the usual "suspects"... a hard limit in our play with each other that weekend. That "hard limit" for the weekend is not a usual hard limit for her but was invoked because it was our first time playing together. In a similar situation, with a male submissive, would you consider their hard limit as an indication of not trusting you and/or of not seeing the dynamic at the same level as you or would you communicate with them to find out why they were placing that hard limit on you and, if it made sense, then if your initial thoughts had been what I stated would you change that view?

Venatrix -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 12:55:51 PM)
CD, the person in New York didn't want to eat at that restaurant because it didn't please him. Contrary to what you read in the papers, I'm not nearly as difficult as they say I am. The weekend was a disaster for lots of other reasons, but it really did all come down to submission only on his terms. In response to the remainder of your post, it all depends what the hard limit is. If it is something quirky, then of course I would be interested to know what motivates it. I wouldn't feel either that I wasn't trusted or that we weren't at the same point in the relationship until I had more information. That sort of thing is just part of the process of getting to know someone. But if you've got to the stage of agreeing to engage in sodomy, that tells me that you have achieved a certain level of intimacy. With me, anyway. I've not yet developed the habit of buggering complete strangers, though that may well change. So, I didn't think I'd got the wrong end of the stick in assessing that it was all right to ask him to read up on Harry Potter, in order for him to get my exceedingly clever little jokes. Obviously, I got it wrong, which is a pity, but better to find out that someone is only looking for kink before you have playtime, and avoid feeling taken advantage of as a result. I do get the sense that with a lot of submissive males, it's a case of, if you top me the way I like, I might perform acts of service for you. With dominant females, it's more likely to be, perform acts of service for me and I'll top you the way I like (and with any luck, you'll like it, too). And therein lie a lot of the problems that occur with the femdom/malesub dynamic.

PeonForHer -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 1:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daintydimples But but....were they "dress" flops? dd They were indeed. And most lovingly polished, too.

allthatjaz -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 2:50:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I think there's a big difference between being "dominant" (or "naturally dominant") and knowing how to direct the motion of others in a diplomatic way. The first is a psychological bent; the second is a leadership skill. I agree with this. Correct leadership skills will get you where you want as a Dominant. Without those leadership skills you will be a very frustrated Dominant. During my years on the scene I would say that I have met many 'Natural Dominants' but very few with 'Good Leadership Skills'. I know absolutely that I could never of submitted to anyone without the second no matter how many hints they had given. As a closet submissive (up to meeting my Man) I knew I needed someone who could give me direction and that can only come from someone with leadership skills and a determination that is very focused. As far as the Dominant side of me, I would always make the first move if I am interested but I do this with absolute subtlety. I weigh them up, watch the expression, the body language, the reaction to certain words. They may not even realize that I am doing it and I have to say there's (for me) some delight in that.

NWIndyMaster -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 3:01:59 PM)
This question is as old as which came first the chicken or the egg. To me it is as simple or difficult however you see it as this. It takes two for the Dominant/submissive relationship work. One can be as Dominant as they wish or as submissive as they wish but it takes the two being together for it to make a difference. I have saw several comments here about the natural Dominance and natural submission. I believe that humans by and large are "built" in one of two positions for the most part (not forgetting the switches). A person is submissive or Dominant when it comes to who they truly are. A job can take a submissive or slave and make them dominant because that is what they need to be for the job and vice versa. I have seen Dominant men have submissive roles at work and act such at work. We have all seen it before. As for the question it is neither one (in my opinion) being first. It is the building of trust between one who is Dominant and one who is submissive and the two come out together. Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts.

NWIndyMaster -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 3:14:04 PM)
[/quote]I hope you folks won't mind the intrusion of a male dominant here but I have to ask a question: Venatrix, we all speak of how important communication is especially when it comes to clearing up misconceptions. When a submissive turns down a request from you, would it not be better to sit down and ask "Why are you turning down this request?" and get their answer before making the decision to go non-receptive to a D/s dynamic? To me, the answer of "No, I won't do that does not necessarily indicate an unwillingness to obey nor is it an indication that they do not want to go further with you. They might indeed want to go further with you but, using your own example, the submissive may feel that the relationship is at an earlier stage than you do and hasn't caught up to you yet. Would not the question and that answer then lead to a discussion of where the dynamic is for both of you and whether or not you both want it to go further? Or am I just wrong and this dance is different between male dominants and female submissives? Waves to the luscious Lockit, pulls her close and hugs the stuffing out of her in a gentle manner. [/quote] You are not wrong as this person should take the time to set down and speak to the submissive and find out what the reason for the negative answer. Many times I have found out that it is not that they do not wish to do it it is that they are scared or often have a legitimate reason for the no. By them saying basically "no = no D/s" it means that they are unwavering in their thoughts and that can not be how it is. We have each our own "kinks" but it is still a relationship. If one is out for more than just sex using the dominant side as a way to ge tit then they should be flexible enough to understand that at times there will be a no. I am current with a sub and it is a new relationship. She has never been in a D/s relationship and has many no's because of how she was previously treated. Her no's are because she is scared and with me taking the time to talk to her she is learning about herself as a sub and about the lifestyle and actually willing to try things she previously said no to. Thank you for pointing this out though.

Lockit -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 3:17:34 PM)
Waves to CD... [sm=mademyday.gif] Hugs back sexy man!

CreativeDominant -> RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first? (7/9/2009 4:47:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix CD, the person in New York didn't want to eat at that restaurant because it didn't please him. Contrary to what you read in the papers, I'm not nearly as difficult as they say I am. The weekend was a disaster for lots of other reasons, but it really did all come down to submission only on his terms. In response to the remainder of your post, it all depends what the hard limit is. If it is something quirky, then of course I would be interested to know what motivates it. I wouldn't feel either that I wasn't trusted or that we weren't at the same point in the relationship until I had more information. That sort of thing is just part of the process of getting to know someone. But if you've got to the stage of agreeing to engage in sodomy, that tells me that you have achieved a certain level of intimacy. With me, anyway. I've not yet developed the habit of buggering complete strangers, though that may well change. So, I didn't think I'd got the wrong end of the stick in assessing that it was all right to ask him to read up on Harry Potter, in order for him to get my exceedingly clever little jokes. Obviously, I got it wrong, which is a pity, but better to find out that someone is only looking for kink before you have playtime, and avoid feeling taken advantage of as a result. I do get the sense that with a lot of submissive males, it's a case of, if you top me the way I like, I might perform acts of service for you. With dominant females, it's more likely to be, perform acts of service for me and I'll top you the way I like (and with any luck, you'll like it, too). And therein lie a lot of the problems that occur with the femdom/malesub dynamic. I too have seen that with a lot of dominant female/submissive male interaction and please understand...though I am sure there are some who won't...I don't mean to offend but it seems to me that in the case of the male submissive, he wants to play before he pays. It is more about him than the dominant or the dynamic (which takes two, not just him and not just the dominant, to be in). That might stem from wanting to submit his way but, in fairness, it could also stem from dealing with too many of the female dominants who view things in the way you note above. She wants it all her way...he does the work she sets out for him and then...at her whim...he might get to play BUT it will be done in her way with little consideration, other than hoping, of what he might/might not like. To me, that's a case of a dominant who gives little consideration to the submissive except as the dominant sees fit...it is more about her rather than the submissive or the dynamic (which again, takes two for it to be a dynamic...not just him, but not just her either). Again, my opinion only. If someone says "A-ha", great. If someone wants to sic dogs on me, well then...I guess I'd better call for the dog catcher. I do thank you for your insight. I have quite a few femdominants and female switches as friends and it is always interesting to learn a different angle to the many facets of D/s.

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