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RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 5:07:09 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You might be right, Panda, and the jackass might get his money back. Wouldn't it be funny if they wind up making a deal over this, and then his club fails almost because of the publicity?

I grew up not far from that place, and I think that's probably pretty much the way it would play out. People have small minds and long memories there. There's still an attorney in my hometown who can't get elected to public office because people remember a rather dirty trick he played while defending a murder trial almost 40 years ago.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I've come to an opinion about the owner of this place. He has the right to express his opinion, by flying the flag upside down. I have the right to express mine, by never setting foot in the place.

Did the authorities have the right to express something too, when they pulled his down, prior to the 4th of July parade, and gave him the flag back, on the 5th?

No. Not according to the Constitution. Authorities don't have the right to break the law in order to make a point. That's fundamentally unconstitutional. We're a nation that's supposed to be governed by laws, not the emotions of elected officials. They're pissing all over the constitution in order to defend it. Don't you see that?

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Post #: 41

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 5:13:05 PM

LadyPact

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I don't suppose there were going to be any groups associated with the military that were going to be marching in a parade that day (not especially local folks) who might have seen the flag en route?

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Post #: 42

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 5:32:06 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

§176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

further down it speaks of penalties for desecrating the flag

http://www.montney.com/flag/flagcode.htm

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Post #: 43

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 5:45:55 PM

Politesub53

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http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/flagburning/topic.aspx?topic=flag_statelaws

"Wisconsin
The Wisconsin Supreme Court struck down the state’s flag-desecration law in 1998 as unconstitutionally overbroad. The case was Wisconsin v. Jansen, 580 N.W.2d 260, 219 Wis.2d 362 (Wis. 1998). Subsequent attempts by the state Legislature to redraft the statute have not succeeded."

If the above still hasnt been altered, I dont see how the police had the right to enter the guys property. It may be the only reason they had was if they thought the flag flying upside down was likely to cause public disorder. It certainly seems the home owner wasnt breaking any laws.

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Post #: 44

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 5:49:50 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think you missed the meat of my post, Arpig. The "fire" in a crowded theater exception may have applied here. Just because you don't "get" the disrespect to the flag doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some people don't get why the word "nigger" is a problem, either.

If that display was going to create a public safety hazard on the 4th of July, the local authorities may have had every right to do what they did.

That's completely absurd. The reason it's illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater is because a reasonable person should expect that doing so would cause a public safety hazard by frightening large groups of people into rushing toward the exit. The key clause in that sentence is "reasonable person." There is no conceivable way any reasonable person could expect that flying a flag upside down for several weeks would suddenly, on the 4th of July, cause people to panic and react in ways that could be hazardous. The very fact that they returned the flag on the 5th of July plainly shows the local Barney Fifes didn't really consider it a hazard, or they would have been derelict in their duties by returning it, wouldn't they? I hope he does sue the fuckers, and cleans out the town's treasury.

The standard goes well beyond "panic". It can be as low a standard as "likely to cause a fight" if a prosecuter wanted to push it. Here the flag burning case would certainly prevail and it would be freedom of expression. However a different court could easily have decided the opposite, since one criterion for "fighting words" prohibition is whether the act itself is illegal or proscribes an illegal act, which is used in cross burning cases.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/11/2009 5:55:00 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 5:57:19 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/flagburning/topic.aspx?topic=flag_statelaws

"Wisconsin
The Wisconsin Supreme Court struck down the state’s flag-desecration law in 1998 as unconstitutionally overbroad. The case was Wisconsin v. Jansen, 580 N.W.2d 260, 219 Wis.2d 362 (Wis. 1998). Subsequent attempts by the state Legislature to redraft the statute have not succeeded."

If the above still hasnt been altered, I dont see how the police had the right to enter the guys property. It may be the only reason they had was if they thought the flag flying upside down was likely to cause public disorder. It certainly seems the home owner wasnt breaking any laws.

the site i gave is the National Flag Code. Each state has their own laws. the flag code is as follows:

quote:

This code is the guide for all handling and display of the Stars and Stripes. It does not impose penalties for misuse of the United States Flag. That is left to the states and to the federal government for the District of Columbia. Each state has its own flag law.

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Post #: 46

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 7:06:33 PM

Arpig

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Interestingly enough, section 3 would seem to make selling a coffee cup with the US flag on it illegal in DC. I will bow out of the arguement here, because those who idolise (and that is in fact the proper word) a flag will simply never be able to understand that they are cheapening their patriotism by so doing.

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Post #: 47

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 7:15:36 PM

tazzygirl

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sorry, we see that as cheapening it. at least some of us do. to each their own.

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Post #: 48

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 7:48:14 PM

Naga

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I will bow out of the arguement here, because those who idolise (and that is in fact the proper word) a flag will simply never be able to understand that they are cheapening their patriotism by so doing.

One can't explain music to someone who is tone deaf......

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 49

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 7:52:46 PM

Level

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I love the flag *looks at my avatar and says "duh"*

But... I like to think the blood shed for the best of our ideals, was given so folks could express unpopular ideas, and if that included burning, or hanging our flag upside down, so be it. The act of free speech or expression needs to outweigh the symbolism of it.

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Post #: 50

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 7:57:04 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I will bow out of the arguement here, because those who idolise (and that is in fact the proper word) a flag will simply never be able to understand that they are cheapening their patriotism by so doing.

One can't explain music to someone who is tone deaf......

So only red blooded Americans can hear the sweet strains of patriotism?

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Post #: 51

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 8:09:05 PM

Arpig

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Apparently so mike, apparently so.

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Post #: 52

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 8:35:48 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I will bow out of the arguement here, because those who idolise (and that is in fact the proper word) a flag will simply never be able to understand that they are cheapening their patriotism by so doing.

One can't explain music to someone who is tone deaf......

So only red blooded Americans can hear the sweet strains of patriotism?

no mike, just the composition may be different.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 53

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 9:12:05 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Methinks the flag is a bit more important than a collar.

Whereas I think a collar is a bit more important than a flag.

Which of us is right?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 54

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:02:26 PM

TheHeretic

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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
They're pissing all over the constitution in order to defend it. Don't you see that?

       I think you're looking at this strictly from a black/white perspective, Panda. I'm seeing his rights in conflict with the rights of others. I'm sure others from a less jingoistic culture would grant it no substance, but the 4th of July is an important ritual to many people. The spectacle and symbolism matter. Does an interuption in his ongoing protest rate higher than disrupting the annual traditions of the community?

       Sorry, Panda. I see a lot of grey in this, but then, I also got a real kick out of the legends of jurisdictions that mandated a $25 fine for assaulting a flag-burner. I'm a free speech kind of guy, but hecklers don't get a veto, and sometimes, sniveling bitches get slapped. The free speech of the community has stepped all over his. Sorry about that, here's your flag back, have a nice day.

      Funny thing though. If he only wanted to do his protest during the parade, and they stopped that, I'd have a bigger problem than I do with the police simply pulling an ongoing protest down for a special day.

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Post #: 55

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:07:10 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

quote:

I don't suppose there were going to be any groups associated with the military that were going to be marching in a parade that day (not especially local folks) who might have seen the flag en route?

And? My 65 year old father is a Vietnam veteran, and a retired Colonel. He is as patriotic as they come. I know him; and I'm telling your with certainty, he would have just rolled his eyes and probably laughed at someone like this. We are not talking about someone that strolled into Washington and broke the case over the Constitution so he could his wipe his ass with it. We are talking about a guy who spent a few bucks at his local hardware store for an American flag to use in a protest. The United States is not going to come to an end or be pushed into anarchy if one person or a million persons fly the flag upside down, burn it, wipe their ass with it, etc, etc.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 56

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:17:10 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

I think you're looking at this strictly from a black/white perspective, Panda. I'm seeing his rights in conflict with the rights of others. I'm sure others from a less jingoistic culture would grant it no substance, but the 4th of July is an important ritual to many people. The spectacle and symbolism matter. Does an interuption in his ongoing protest rate higher than disrupting the annual traditions of the community?

I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused by the way you worded your question. But if I understand it correctly, then according to the Constitution - yes. If he has a constitutional right to fly the flag upside down, he has that right on every day of the year - 4th of July, 5th of July, August 12th, whatever - and whether the community is holding a parade, a pig roast, or flooding the streets for a mock naval battle. It doesn't matter. If he's got that right, he's got that right.

His right to protest is not in conflict with the community's right not to be irritated by it, because the community has no such right. The Constitution is the overarching law of the land, and it trumps "community traditions" 6 ways from Sunday.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 7/11/2009 10:19:08 PM >

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Panda, panda, burning bright
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What immortal hand or eye
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Post #: 57

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:28:56 PM

TheHeretic

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      So a community tradition is not a free expression??? Parades interfere with all sorts of rights. Hell, you can't even cross the street in some places. and people put folding chairs on the sidewalk!

     This jackass isn't special. His rights don't trump anyone else's because he using a powerful symbol. I hope his ACLU lawyers take it to court, and the jury awards him a nickel in damages, and tells him to pay the court fees.

     And if I'm the village's atty, we are sticking to the risk to public safety, and cussing the damn assistant DA who got us into this mess, privately.

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Post #: 58

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:30:32 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So a community tradition is not a free expression??? Parades interfere with all sorts of rights. Hell, you can't even cross the street in some places. and people put folding chairs on the sidewalk!

How was his flag preventing anyone from holding a parade?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And if I'm the village's atty, we are sticking to the risk to public safety, and cussing the damn assistant DA who got us into this mess, privately.

Good luck finding an appeals court that won't laugh you out of the building.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 7/11/2009 10:32:18 PM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Small town politics, ain't it great - 7/11/2009 10:31:46 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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It wasn't feng shui.

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Post #: 60

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