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"5. Censoring media and information…; "6. Smearing all those who protested [following the elections]... and all those who opposed the position holders, [by calling them] 'mercenaries' and 'spies of foreign [forces]';

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

In a country like Iran, one can get arrested & tortured for objecting to an election outcome. A high level cleric saying that a government that did even some of the the things listed in the question would be illegitimate takes enormous courage. The reason is simple, the present government has very openly and undeniably done at least two of the "sins" listed

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"5. Censoring media and information…; "6. Smearing all those who protested [following the elections]... and all those who opposed the position holders, [by calling them] 'mercenaries' and 'spies of foreign [forces]';

The cleric in question has outright stated that according to the teachings of Islam (upon which the entire government structure of the Islamic Republic of Iran rests) a government that does censor the media or smear protesters as foreign agents-provocateurs (again both of which the present government has done openly) is invalid, and this condemnation goes all the way to the top, Khameni has publicly stated that the protesters were foreign agents.

This Ayatollah Montazeri has publicly declared the entire government of Iran to be illegitimate, and its orders to be null and void. Can you not see how this might be construed as somewhat dangerous given the present climate in Iran?

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ORIGINAL: Arpig


OK lets take this one step at a time, working only on what info we have in the article cited.
1) He was asked straight up if censoring the media is a sin that would invalidate a government.
2) He stated that it would invalidate a government.
3) The present government censors the media.
4) Thus he has declared the present government invalid.

As to if this is a set-up or not, well time alone will tell, but personally I doubt that it is.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

You do not see the present government of iran censoring the media and information?

http://www.internetnews.com/government/article.php/3826586

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/in-the-digital-iran-censo_b_220893.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6751819.stm

http://imediatech.biz/china-iran-censor-web-rights-group-107.html

As I said, openly and undeniably censoring

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the recent presidential elections as well as the new government it created, both "illegitimate".

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

Yes I do read, however I begin to doubt that you even bother to read your own posts. I guess you do not understand the basics of logic. The Ayatollah has no need to say any such thing. The fact (attested to by the links in my previous post) that the government of Iran is censoring the media is not in dispute. It is not something on which a religious ruling can be given. The government IS doing it, that is a fact. He was asked to rule on the legitemacy of a government that censors the media (among other things), and he has declared any government that is doing it is invalid, on the basis of Islamic law. He has thus, ipso facto, declared the present government of Iran from Khameni on down to be contrary to Islamic law, and thus not a legitimate government of the Islamic Republic. I cannot see how he could have made it any clearer.

Maybe it will be clearer taken one step at a time.
- He has ruled that a hypothetical government that does X, then it is illegitimate.
- The government of Iran does do X, this is not in dispute, the government of Iran openly admits to "censoring the media and information".
- Therefore, the government of Iran is illegitimate.
I cannot make it any simpler or clearer than that.

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Deep fissures are showing as never before on a clerical style of government that has struggled for so long to paint itself as one united, single voice for Iran. A group of Iranian religious leaders, known as the Association of Researchers and Teachers of Qom, released a statement last week calling the recent presidential elections as well as the new government it created, both "illegitimate". Such a public declaration has been nearly unheard of in the three decades of the Islamic Republic's existence, and is indicative of a growing split amongst the clerical leadership -- a leadership that is critical to the legitimacy and existence of Iran's current government.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

Forget it it willbeur, you just don't get the basics of logic. I have explained it to you several different ways how he did in fact say the government is illegitimate. I have not once mentioned anything about the legitimacy of the Iranian government in our eyes. I have made a point repeatedly to stress that it is in the context of Islam that the government has been declared illegitimate. It is clearly pointless to debate with you, as you apparently cannot see what is plainly in front of you.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have explained it to you several different ways how he did in fact say the government is illegitimate.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

Funny Willbuer, but it seems you are the only one who cannot see it. I suggest you drop by your local college and take a refresher course in logic, as you seem utterly immune to it.

Ultra simplified version
1) Ayatollah says an Islamic government that censors the media and information is illegitimate under Islamic law. (This is clearly what he said in the fatwa)
2) The present government of Iran is an Islamic Republic, its authority is based on Islamic law. (This is what the whole governmental structure of Iran is based on, so clearly the fatwa applies)
3) The present government of Iran is censoring the media and information. (Which it is doing openly and makes no effort to deny that it is doing so.)
5) Therfore it if 1, 2 & 3 are all true (which they are), the only possible conclusion is that the present government of Iran is illegitimate.

The Ayatollah had no need to state it outright because he stated that any Islamic government that did the things that the present government of Iran is doing is illegitimate. To any but the most delibertaly obtuse and dense, he has clearly stated that the present government of Iran is illegitimate. You were wrong when you first said he did not state that the government of Iran was illegitimate, and you are still wrong. He said it very clearly and obviously.

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And btw I have a Masters in Math, so getting snarky about logic is quite entertaining.

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But then youre Canadian.