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Sexist? Moi? - 7/12/2009 9:34:02 PM

Venatrix

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First off, I've done a search on the topic of sexism and come up blank, so help me out here, ladies. I was recently having a rather heated (yes, me!) discussion via e-mail with a male friend of mine. I had told him that, hypothetically, I would absolutely consider topping him, that I'd probably consider having sex with him (I might've used a four-letter word for that), but that I'd want to settle down with someone who didn't seem like he was still playing the field: older, wrinklier, and possibly plumper and balder than my friend, stable and less likely to run around. Now, remember, this is all hypothetical, both what I said I'd be interested in doing to him and whether he is or is not a player.

This did not go over well with him. I was accused of being sexist because I was considering engaging in behaviour that men have traditionally engaged in, and which is seen as somewhat reprehensible: use the "slut" for your pleasure, but commit to the "virtuous" person when the time comes to settle down. Then I got to thinking that maybe it was sexist to expect women to be held to a different, higher standard than men. I mean, isn't that what we've been held to right along?

So, which is it: should women act in a morally superior way because we have an "obligation" to be better than men and set a good example for them, especially when some of us (like me) are complaining how badly behaved they are, or should we have equal opportunity to behave just as badly as they do, if we so choose? Is it even bad to do what I outline above, or is it just human nature? If you're up front about what you're doing (no, I won't respect you in the morning, but I'd still like to have fun with you tonight), does that make a difference?

I'm particularly interested in answers from femdoms, because I'm wondering if our orientation skews our viewpoint in one direction or another (do you think your orientation skews your viewpoint?), though as is usual, I'm sure everyone will chime in. I'm limiting my time on the boards, so it may be a couple of days before I respond to any posts. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Post #: 1

RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/12/2009 9:42:13 PM

shygirlbc

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interesting question.

my view is: if a strategy works, use it. i just got 'played' by a player so now i see it the same way. someone with a lot of ability to attract partners is going to be more likely to be out playing, unless for reasons of personal philosophy they are in a committment frame of mind. i would expect someone with a lot of appeal and ability to be playing the field.

i would be more reasssured about someone with home 'homely' qualities (in the classic traditional sense of the word) and more likely to pick that person to settle down with.

i see nothing wrong with your approach. what is sauce for the gander, is sauce for the goose.

slave alice

(in reply to Venatrix)

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/12/2009 10:53:36 PM

LadyPact

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Personally, I get tired of all of the isms and ists. Ageism, sexists, purists, and every other thing you can think of that someone will throw at you depending on your own preferences are used to determine how you will conduct your personal interactions. Exactly how does one become a sexist for engaging in the same behaviors as the other gender?

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/12/2009 11:24:50 PM

DVsFox

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Were you being sexist? I really have no idea, as I wasn't a party to the entire discussion. This thread does come off as a little sexist, basically because you're justifying your hypothetical actions by stating that men have always behaved in the same manner and that it's sexist for women to be held to a different standard. In effect, you're saying that women can roll in the mud because all men are pigs. Well, all men are not pigs and women don't have to endlessly define themselves by what men do or don't do.

Do I think what you were hypothetically proposing was wrong? Yes. From my perspective, it's not something I would do or condone. It's not something that fits in with my personal morals or with what I want out of my life. I don't believe in having short-term thrills with somebody I don't see a future with. To me, it would be a complete and utter waste.

However, you live a different life, of course...and whatever is right for you is ultimately what's right for you. As long as you're not a serious danger to anybody, it's absolutely none of my business.

Just my two cents and personal opinions on an interesting topic,
DV's Fox

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 4:51:47 AM

CatdeMedici

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I'm an IST who practices ISM's somewhere in every avenue of My life--as Lady P says, someone out there will brand Me for some apsect of My behavior. I don't do it because someone else does it, I do it because I choose to do so. Have I had sexy flings? Hell yeah, did I do it because the men do it and I think its ok? Hell no. Did I do it with men I never would have married, uh yeah--hence the term sexy flings--did I think I was better or worse than men? I never gave it a pish posh thought.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 5:20:31 AM

DarkSteven

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First off, you told him No. Not a very strong No, but still, that seems to bring out the "waaah waaah waaah" in some men.

My definition of "sexist" is not treating men and women the same. Well, they're NOT.

There are physical differences (duh). There are culturally induced differences. And there are subtle personality differences as well IMO.

Sounds to me like waaah waah waaah.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 6:34:41 AM

Venatrix

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Actually, Fox, I've had periods of celibacy that have lasted for several years, and currently have been celibate for a year and a half, with no end in sight. That's exactly why I stressed that this was all hypothetical: because I don't want people who know nothing about me making judgements that are most likely wrong. But I appreciate your comments. Thanks!

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 7:21:05 AM

Lashra

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Hmm well honestly, I do what I want to do. I'm rather Dominant and tend not to do what others tell me to with my life. If I want to fuck one guy and marry another that is my business as long as all parties know whats going on.

Perhaps you should remind your friend that you are the Dominant female and as far as you are concerned it is your life and you live it on your own terms.

Just my two cents,
~Lashra

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 7:21:47 AM

gentlemanprince

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Just because a man isn't someone you would consider for a longterm relationship doesn't mean that you don't have an emotional bond. Years ago, I dated a woman for a while. It didn't work as a romance but we became best friends. When neither of us was involved with another, we would sleep together. We both were richer for that.

To me, the "male" practice that you criticize is using a woman without regard to her feelings (e.g., saying you love her just to get her in bed). From reading your posts, I can't imagine you doing that. In fact, from your description of the conversation, it seems that you were very honest with him. I agree that sex is better in the context of a loving relationship, but I don't denigrate it otherwise.

Besides, as a cardcarrying member of the "older, wrinklier, and possibly plumper and balder" I applaud your recognition that we have something to offer. :)

(in reply to Venatrix)

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 8:22:24 AM

Andalusite

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*shrugs* I don't see it as sexist at all. It is stereotyping him as being someone who would be a "player" and not commit, based on his looks/age I suppose, but if you've had any indications that he *hasn't* settled down and isn't looking for commitment, then he's the one living up to that stereotype.

I've played casually with people who I wasn't interested in dating, and in fact, find it easier to keep it casual under those circumstances (ie. with couples or older men). That was a few years ago, when I wasn't particularly looking for a commitment at the time.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 7/13/2009 8:24:18 AM >

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 9:42:09 AM

Venatrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

*shrugs* I don't see it as sexist at all. It is stereotyping him as being someone who would be a "player" and not commit, based on his looks/age I suppose, but if you've had any indications that he *hasn't* settled down and isn't looking for commitment, then he's the one living up to that stereotype.

I wouldn't consider him as a potential partner for a lot of reasons, and he knows that, but one of the main ones is that he claims he's looking for a committed relationship and isn't a player, yet flirts with a lot of women. I tried to counsel him that even though he claims he's not a player, he comes off looking like one and that might be hurting his chances of finding someone. He's also quite good looking, so that makes him a woman magnet, and his inability to limit the number of his groupies, for lack of a better way of putting it, would probably be a turn-off to a lot of women who might otherwise be interested. All of my advice fell on deaf ears and precipitated the exchange that I described above. This is actually getting away, though, from the topic that I wanted to consider, which was whether it's "sexist" to treat a man the same way that men often treat women, when that treatment is perceived as bad, and whether or not where you fall on the d/s spectrum contributes to the way you evaluate this.

Gentlemanprince - I've always found less physically perfect men to be more appealing. Pretty boys are like expensive antiques: lovely to look at, but too much trouble to maintain.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 10:39:43 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

I wouldn't consider him as a potential partner for a lot of reasons, and he knows that, but one of the main ones is that he claims he's looking for a committed relationship and isn't a player, yet flirts with a lot of women.

This is actually getting away, though, from the topic that I wanted to consider, which was whether it's "sexist" to treat a man the same way that men often treat women, when that treatment is perceived as bad, and whether or not where you fall on the d/s spectrum contributes to the way you evaluate this.

Sexism is to discriminate against or treat a person as inferior based on their sex. What you've described isn't sexism. You are not discriminating against him because he's male, you're discriminating against him based on, among other things, his personal behavior and his looks. These are different issues. It's still prejudiced but it's not sexist.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 11:09:31 AM

PeonForHer

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Is it '"sexist" to treat a man the same way that men often treat women'? Yes, pretty obviously, if that treatment is sexist if men do it to women, then the same is true in reverse. And two wrongs don't make a right - a second bad doesn't cancel out the first. Nonetheless, I don't see anything wrong with casual sex or scenes per se.

However, this is a strange thread indeed. The standard complaint from femdoms is about malesubs who want great D/s scenes and sex without the strings of relationships. Me, I think I could do such a casual thing now, if the friendship was right, there was the initial chemistry, and (as Lashra says) all interested parties knew what the score was. The one, possibly major, thing that sounds a note of caution in me is that a D/s encounter might rock my emotions as much as did my first vanilla encounter when I was a teenager. Still, I'm not a teenager anymore, and better equipped to get over such things . . .

But I can't believe any of what you've been saying is a big ethical problem for you. More, it's to do with what you've grown up vaguely to believe is the 'appropriate way for a woman to act'. If it's appropriate for a male, whatever 'it' is, it's appropriate for a female (hairy armpits and belching loudly aside, maybe). That just needs unpacking. then (for the most part) dumping. Still less can I believe it's a practical problem. I suspect there are many, many submales around who'd jump at the chance of some playtime with you. I'd suggest you just move on to the next one in the queue!

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 11:27:11 AM

Venatrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
But I can't believe any of what you've been saying is a big ethical problem for you.

Perhaps now would be a good time for you to look up the definition of the word "hypothetical."

quote:

I suspect there are many, many submales around who'd jump at the chance of some playtime with you. I'd suggest you just move on to the next one in the queue!

Thank you, Peon. You are, as usual, a perfect gentleman, with nary an iota of cattiness in your remarks. I think my recent posts have made it clear that I'm far more selective than to simply choose the next one begging for attention. Thank you for your ideas, though. I find this an interesting topic, even if some people don't quite grasp the meaning of certain words.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 11:36:09 AM

Lockit

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Wow... this is a tricky one... at least for my soggy brain today.

Will I justify doing something because other's do it? No. If I see it as bad for someone, it is bad for me. Have I? Maybe. I'm sure down the line somewhere I have, but I try real hard not to. Now, in this older, more saggy, soggy and closer to a life cross over... lol I'm even more determined not to and more stubborn in my ways.

I have to live with myself and if I can find reason to fault myself and I am guilty of many things... I will still try to do what I see as the right thing. I do it for me. I have failed in this enough times to know that I just don't want to go there. I want to hold myself to a higher standard in a lot of things and I might fail in this, but I try and not because I want to be higher than anyone else, but because I want to sleep well, carry no guilt and be able to view myself in the mirror. I am selfish and lazy and don't want the emotional drama of kicking myself in the ass for something and if I used someone, I would.

I'm not proud of everything I have done, but I don't need to be adding to the list. I haven't found more men who are pretty boys acting any worse than the not so pretty boys. If someone is a slut... and I was... but am not now... I don't want to do him just on the off chance that that slutishness might give me some other cause to be sorry. lol I don't want sex for the fun of it without something there that gives me the other things I look for. If I did want sex just for the fun of it, it would still have to be with someone I respect and a guy who is a player isn't fun for me.

Damn I am too tired for this one. Some hard ass, pretty one kept me up far too late and two hours of sleep isn't good at my age. I hope I made sense and wasn't offensive, but in this soggy state... if I have been, I didn't mean to be. lol Yikes!

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 12:00:20 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
But I can't believe any of what you've been saying is a big ethical problem for you.

quote:

Venatrix
Perhaps now would be a good time for you to look up the definition of the word "hypothetical."

I meant it in a hypothetical way. That is, I think you, like most people, would accept the general ethical point of view that what's sexist for one sex is sexist for the other.

quote:

PeonForHer
I suspect there are many, many submales around who'd jump at the chance of some playtime with you. I'd suggest you just move on to the next one in the queue!

quote:

Venatrix
Thank you, Peon. You are, as usual, a perfect gentleman, with nary an iota of cattiness in your remarks. I think my recent posts have made it clear that I'm far more selective than to simply choose the next one begging for attention. Thank you for your ideas, though. I find this an interesting topic, even if some people don't quite grasp the meaning of certain words.

Perhaps I phrased that too briefly. I wasn't saying that a domme in the position you outline just take the next in the queue. Rather, I was suggesting that she check to see if the 'next in the queue' might be more suitable.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 12:08:32 PM

Venatrix

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Ah, thank you for your clarification. The problem with usage of sarcasm is that one's audience often does not know when one is actually being serious. After events of the past few days, I begin to wonder if men and women are doomed forever to communicate not only differently, but completely at cross-purposes. That, however, is a topic for another thread, and one that I won't be starting.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 7:59:58 PM

LovingMistress45

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It is not sexist. Sexist would be making a judgment based solely on the sex of the person involved. Playing with someone or having sex with someone you are not interested in for marriage or a committed relationship is not sexist. Now if you state that all men treat women as objects with no regard for their feelings and are only interested in how many they can get into bed - that would be sexist.

To say that is ok to behave in a certain way because another group does is faulty reasoning. I have had sex with men I would never consider being in a serious relationship with. I did it because it was what I wanted, not because "men" engage in that behavior. I engage in S&M play with a lot of people that I would not have sex or a relationship with. For me S&M play is not always sexual so I don't have an issue with it. I have in my past done things I would not do now, but at the time it was what I wanted. I have always been aware and able to accept that sex does not equal love. Sex can be an expression of love, it can also be just a physical release and a hell of a lot of fun. What I don't do agree with is not being completely honest about what exactly your intentions are.

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/13/2009 8:32:22 PM

DemonKia

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FR, after read thru

For me, the big problem of the 'player' is when & to the degree that it's about dishonesty & deceit. If they 'play' at insinuating more interest than they actually have, pretend at being interested in longer-term stuff in pursuit of shorter-term goals, that's the problem. If they're fully honest about what they seek, that's fine.

As to the rest of the OP, nah, I don't hear anything sexist. & I think everyone has some kind of moral obligation to behave better, not that that expectation is reasonable or met . .. . . I can't think of anything that exempts anyone from that . . . . . . & leaving aside for the moment the entirely separate topic of what constitutes 'better' . .. . .

< Message edited by DemonKia -- 7/13/2009 8:33:37 PM >

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RE: Sexist? Moi? - 7/14/2009 12:33:05 AM

Arpig

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quote:

especially when some of us (like me) are complaining how badly behaved they are

If you are complaining about how badly they behave, then yes I expect you to be held to the same standard you are holding them to. Other than that, fuck away to your heart's content.

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