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Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 10:41:49 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		All right, I admit that the categories aren't mutually exclusive, but I have a tentative hypothesis and I'm trying to see if it holds water.

We've seen several threads lately about how difficult it is for submissive men to submit, and how frustrating this is for dominant women.  We've heard about subs not showing good manners, that they disappear without a word, how they turn up days/weeks/months/years later expecting to pick up where they left off, and so on.

I've started to wonder if I wouldn't be better off with someone who doesn't identify as submissive, but rather someone whose kinks match mine, which include bondage, anal and pain play (or some combination thereof).  My experience with submissive men is that they want to submit only on their terms, which isn't really submission at all.  The men I've come across who identify as interested in bondage only or as masochists have been pleasant and drama-free.  Yet every man I've tried to develop a relationship with who identifies as submissive has eventually been more trouble than he's worth: unreliable, rude, selfish, or just plain messed-up mentally. 

I also wonder if a relationship with someone who isn't fighting being submissive would, in an odd twist, actually mean that I'd get more of my needs met, because pleasing each other would be motivated by mutual caring, rather than the fiction that someone is submitting, and but in fact doing it only when and how he wants.

I'd like to hear from women who have had long-term relationship experience with men who are into bondage or pain play, but who don't identify as submissive.  Have you found it less drama-filled and/or more emotionally fulfilling than relationships you've had with submissive men?   
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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 10:55:06 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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I would take it a step further and say that even better, sometimes, are NON KINKY men, totally vanilla, and/or simply open minded and "curious" types who can be molded into slaves, subs, bottoms or just kinky play partners.  My view point is a bit skewed because basically ALL my original S&M type relationships started as vanilla, and the guys were seduced into it by me and encouraged to try bondage and S&M. As a result, they never had an agenda, never pushed their kinks on me and never whined when they didn't get play, or manipulated me into doing S&M with them.

Hot? Incredibly.  What could be better than a man who submits to S&M because he wants to please his partner?  Most non kinky men approached it with a sense of fear and nervousness but ultimately wanted to make it work - and let's face it, even the most vanilla guy won't run the other way when he finds out his girlfriend is "kinky."   The biggest problem I had with it was that most men think kinky  = sexually "easy" or loose in bed, ie, I would fuck him or give him a blow job tied up and that's the extent of it.  That mindset took a little "retraining" to get rid of.

If a man wants to please his partner because they really like each other, he's going to experiment with the kinky stuff on her terms and the kink is NOT the focus of the relationship, but a flavor. This is VERY refreshing and removes all pressure.  Now, the DOWNSIDE...

The bad part of this is also a reality: A vanilla guy can only go so far.  Strapons and anal? That's going to take some time to work up to.  Bondage - sure.  Teasing and denial, face sitting, chastity - all very do-able for a tame guy. Pain? Not so much.  You have to work up to that.  The other drawback is that a vanilla guy will never, ever understand what the compulsion feels like - they see kinky sex as just a diversion.  They don't realize that when you are "wired kinky" you can't just give it up. When they get bored of it, or tired of it, or COMFORTABLE enough with you (ie, when real intimacy starts, and hearts are involved), that's when he may say, "You know what...I think we can do without the kinky stuff, let's just cut that part out."  They think it's like playing tennis. You just stop doing it.  They don't realize it's YOU, and it's not going away. Ouch! That's never fun.

The best? I think a submissive-curious guy, or an open minded bottom, or someone who has not been exposed to TOO MUCH male-created bdsm porn.  A man who has not built up too many fantasies. You have to catch them on the beginning part of the learning curve.   or, he has to be a very mature (emotionally) man who has had some successful S&M relationships in the past.

I have had more success with "kinky bottoms" and totally vanilla guys, as a whole, than "submissives."  However, the "submissives" who I have met who are real are EONS more skilled and savvy than the vanillas and bottoms, if that makes sense.  Meaning the ratio between wankers and quality is higher and harder to wade through with "subs" but the payoff is greater, where as the frustration is lower with vanillas and bottoms, but there are more sensible and decent partners.

Akasha


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(in reply to Venatrix)
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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 11:44:43 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		My opinions of some of these things is starting to sway somewhat.  In your original, there are many blurs of lines that may have been presented without you realizing it.  You're skipping a whole territory between sub and bottom, experienced, rather than inexperienced, and probably more.

There is such a huge gap between males who have accepted their submissive nature, those who haven't, and those who use it as a convenient excuse for their poor behavior.  One of the problems that I see is that you want to group them all together.  They aren't the same, anymore than all Dominants are the same.  The less than positive experiences are coloring your view.

If you'd be better off with someone who identifies as a bottom, try it?  Go out, have a good time, and take the edge off.  Have a good time or don't, but stop whatever is bothering you so much.  I don't mean that as offensive.  I mean it in a way that will assist you.

One thing I do want to say here.  I think you're looking at people as one label.  Very rarely is that ever the case.  Personally, I'm the whole scope.  Top, Dominant, as well as Mistress.  All of them feed different needs.  The same can be true on the other side of the kneel.  That rope bottom might have a touch of submissive to him.  That sub might have slave tendencies.  You don't know until you get in touch with the most important label of all.  Person.


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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 11:56:53 AM   
AngelicaGoddess


Posts: 61
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline 		I met all my recent partners (I'm poly) at fetish events, hardly ever encountered the problems you describe, because kinky folks are usually open to new kinks. As for 24/7 D/s relationships, they can work but are quite difficult, a submissive who wanted to be submissive and guided all the time would feel like a weight. Most men with kinks tend to be open to other kinks and guys approaching a kinky dominant woman usually do have a rather strong submissive streak in them.

You seem to be quite down on male submissives, I assume you had a few not so great experiences, maybe you want to look at the pattern of those relationships and see what they have in common and what didn't work for you. Maybe your expectations are quite high, which is not a bad thing but it could be overwhelming at the start of a relationship, relationships require a lot of work and getting to know each other. Maybe testing the waters slowly and then slowly increasing the intensity would have a higher success rate than expecting the submissive to be "right" straight from the start? Bear in mind, since I don't know you personally and don't know the problems you encountered in previous relationships, I'm venturing guesses.

Or maybe asking somebody who identifies himself as a submissive in which activities he's interested and if there is a mutual interest, there shouldn't be any drama as both are getting out what they want. Drama usually happens if one part is disappointed or feels the other part asks for too much. By making sure that the basic interests in certain activities are the same, a lot of potential trouble won't appear.

I'm just slightly confused because I took a peek at your profile and you mention there you aren't looking and you don't want to be approached, and in another thread you said you are happy being single. Now would I be a male, interested in the activities you like and possibly even submissive, I'd be confused by the mixed messages and possibly not dare to approach you. So could it be that the ones that have approached you are possibly not the type you are looking for but the opposite of what you want (every woman on here is familiar with the "I don't care what she says, she is female and I try my luck" type and they exist out of CM too) and that would explain bad experiences?

(in reply to Venatrix)
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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 12:25:19 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelicaGoddess

You seem to be quite down on male submissives, I assume you had a few not so great experiences, maybe you want to look at the pattern of those relationships and see what they have in common and what didn't work for you.



I've never had a relationship with a submissive male, only casual play.  I have tried to develop relationships with them, but they don't pan out for reasons that I shall lump into the overall category of "bad behaviour" on the part of the sub, some of which I outlined above.

quote:


I'm just slightly confused because I took a peek at your profile and you mention there you aren't looking and you don't want to be approached, and in another thread you said you are happy being single.


Yes, both of the above are true.  I'm not looking right now, and I'm always happy being single; I'm not looking for someone because I'm lonely and desperate, I want someone to enhance my life.  If someone doesn't enhance my life considerably, then there's no point to having him be part of it.  I'm trying to figure out what my best options are now, so that if I do decide to look for someone at some point, I won't waste time on those who may fundamentally be incompatible with me. 



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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 12:39:40 PM   
Venatrix


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Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

stop whatever is bothering you so much.  I don't mean that as offensive.  I mean it in a way that will assist you.



I just spent a few minutes thinking about this.  I've been on two dates in fourteen months, and even though one of those turned out to be a complete disaster, I hardly ever think of him, so it's not real life that's a problem.  I don't return much e-mail and the e-mail that I do return is with people I like, so *that's* not a problem.  The only place where I spend much time around submissive men is on the boards.  And it's just occurred to me that between the way many of them behave on the boards and what dominant women write about their subs, that's what's reinforcing my negative impression of submissive men.

Thanks, LP.  Hasta la vista!

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 12:41:08 PM   
omkfY


Posts: 104
Joined: 7/7/2009
From: State of Jefferson
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

My experience with submissive men is that they want to submit only on their terms, which isn't really submission at all. 


I think this says it all.  It sounds like you're not finding truly submissive men, but instead have been duped by bondage enthusiasts and masochists pretending to be submissive to get what they want.


Edit:  Or perhaps what you think of as a submissive male, he might consider a slave.  Like LadyPact said, there are gradations behind the labels...


< Message edited by omkfY -- 7/14/2009 12:54:15 PM >

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 1:08:24 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I  give rip one if the guy is submissive.  I want a MASOCHIST who can follow directions in a scene context.  The rest of Real Life... well, let's just say that I am large and in charge wherever I go, so even if I am with another dominant, being heard is not a problem.   The manners, intellect, decency, etc that I expect from a male companion are things that I expect from *any* male, as I am sure you do, too. 

The problems often lie with men who LIE about themselves and what they want.  Yesterday some top man wrote and wanted to chat... because he liked having sex with fat chicks!  (okay, he said it more elegantly).  Now, HE did not appeal to me much, but the polite honesty sure was a pleasant change!  Wouldn't it be astounding if the men would just say that they are regular guys who like pain, or being tied, or whatever it is they like that involves MUTUAL activity?

It is so hard to find a compatible partner when one is of a certain level of life experience...  I've really had to codify for myself what I really want from all the aspects of myself, because while I want to be an Owner again, I still do not feel that I can be sexually intimate with my property.  I do not want to be anyone's mom, auxiliary brain, or fetish delivery system.  Yes, it does help to be poly!

When it comes to men on the boards, I know that I and a few others have been BADLY burned by some who were popular posters.  There are some here that I like a whole lot, and some few that I even respect, but by and large, well...  I am glad that I know many real life submissive men that improve my perceptions! 

V, you are in SAN FRANCISCO.  The mecca of perversity.  Have you been out and about, checked out the women's groups, asked around?  There has to be someone out there that doesn't make you nauseated or bore you senseless, purely going by the law of averages. 

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 2:07:06 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		There's another corollary to the whole thing that adds more cloudiness to the equation, and that's that quite often a woman comes across a submissive who is pretty confident in his submissiveness to the point that she no longer feels she has to be dominant to maintain their dynamic. I know it sounds strange, but I've run across a subset of dominant women who are looking for a submissive, find me, and figure that since I'm naturally submissive that there's no need to actually interject the bdsm dynamic into the relationship, keeping it recognized in name only. This is usually followed by recriminations and complaints of "I thought you were submissive" when nothing in the relationship ever suggested there was a dominant/submissive relationship taking place to begin with.

On your actual question (I'm starting to ignore the "I'd like to here from women who...." questions because it's turning into a point where I'm having to reread every OP just to see if submissive guys are welcome to input responses), if you think you can find what you're seeking by going after kinksters rather than submissives, then I say all the power to you and I hope you're successful in your search. I've had some success in attracting vanilla women over the years who then wanted to be dominants, so I know the task of doing the same thing in the vanilla community for a woman has to be evern that much easier, so like another one said in the thread, if you can do it, you should.

The problem occurs when dominants start to believe that everyone can be turned into a submissive because they're also very bottom-like in the kink area and bedroom. It might be successful, but the chances of success are diminished by original expectations and one's natural disposition.


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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 2:10:27 PM   
AngelicaGoddess


Posts: 61
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, both of the above are true. I'm not looking right now, and I'm always happy being single; I'm not looking for someone because I'm lonely and desperate, I want someone to enhance my life. If someone doesn't enhance my life considerably, then there's no point to having him be part of it. I'm trying to figure out what my best options are now, so that if I do decide to look for someone at some point, I won't waste time on those who may fundamentally be incompatible with me.


Isn't that the approach most people take when it comes to finding a partner? Somebody to enhance their lives, what else would be the point? I'm sure nobody goes out and says "I want to find a partner who makes me miserable!"

Maybe you tried to develop relationships with the wrong guys? That's back to square 1 then, what was it that they had in common and why it didn't work?
Luckily you only had casual encounters so they couldn't have hurt you as they could have in a committed relationship. I would consider it the "weeding out stage" but bad behavior would be a swift kick in the backside even before it gets to the point of a casual encounter.

Forget labels, what does it matter if they call themselves, concentrate on how they behave and since I assume you are talking RL and not online (you ARE in SF, the most kink friendly place on the planet, we Europeans dream about SF and having visited a few times, it's mind blowing), observing what they do or don't do should be perfect clues, much better clues than anything they decide they might want to call themselves. Your dream masochist, bondage partner, strapon lover might actually have a very submissive streak, but possibly thinks he's primarily a masochist and might label himself as such.

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 4:01:32 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		FR -

LadyHib - Yes, San Francisco seems to have it all when it comes to kink, but I'm too busy making my arrangements for my trans-Atlantic move to have any time to avail myself of it.  In the past I've been active in the community, but never met anyone that way, either.  In spite of the how open it is here, my guess is that the vast majority of submissive men are closeted.

Littlesarbonn - of course, you're welcome to reply, and someone might find your comments helpful, but I'm looking for the viewpoint of women who have actually shared my experience.  Unless you've become a woman, become a dominant, and had relationships with men, you can't possibly understand what we go through.  How many first e-mails do you get that say, "Would mistress like to watch me cum on cam?"  'Cause my inbox is packed with them.  And until you're a woman who has dealt with that over and over and over again, you can't possibly know what kind of effect it has.  After a while, you begin to think that there isn't a wank-absorbed male out there.  Sex and kink are wonderful, but I need way more than that from a man.

Ultimately, I'm trying to find out what has worked for other women.  In the recent past, when I was looking, I would estimate that I had to slog through 100 e-mails to find one person that I would want to go on a date with.  I'd invest my time to get to know the person, we'd prepare to meet, he'd back out before the meeting took place.  So, out of every 500 or so e-mails, I'd go on one date, and it wouldn't be a match.  I'm no longer willing to make that kind of investment, as I have other interests that I want to pursue.  So, yes, it's always going to be a numbers game, but if I'm going to keep trying to meet someone, then I need to figure out what to do to increase my success rate. 

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 4:02:41 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I think part of the problems encountered lay in the fact of people using labels. Some guys who are masochist may indeed feel that automatically makes them submissive, the same applies in reverse. What i dont understand are the guys who claim to be submissive yet want everything on their own terms, to me thats fraudulent. As has been said i think most of you ladies would prefer it if someone actually said " I love being tied up but refuse to wash the dishes "

I also think many guys would prefer a woman who said she wanted a submissive to do the dishes but wasnt into pain play. Thankfully many profiles make that point clear, so at least one knows where one stands from the outset. One of the best profiles I have seen simply said " Clean my house, then we can play " Thats honest and to the point.

One thing I dont understand is overly bratty behaviour, not in a fun way, but constant to the point of being tiring. I cannot see what anyone hopes to achieve from that for the life of me. Word gets around and posts are read and noted, so slowly but surely one is lowering ones chances of a good match.

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 4:59:26 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
I just spent a few minutes thinking about this.  I've been on two dates in fourteen months, and even though one of those turned out to be a complete disaster, I hardly ever think of him, so it's not real life that's a problem.  I don't return much e-mail and the e-mail that I do return is with people I like, so *that's* not a problem.  The only place where I spend much time around submissive men is on the boards.  And it's just occurred to me that between the way many of them behave on the boards and what dominant women write about their subs, that's what's reinforcing my negative impression of submissive men.

Thanks, LP.  Hasta la vista!



Well, maybe once I get to that coast, I can drag you out to something just to have fun.  I won't be that far off from San Fransisco.  Going out for dinner with kinksters can't be bad, right?  I'll even wear regular people clothes, rather than the leather.  I promise.  Just for you.

In fairness, not everything on these boards has been problematic.  Yes, I agree with Lady H that we've had some popular male sub posters that were great, until they weren't quite what they appeared to be, but it hasn't been all of them.  DarchChylde's Ma'am has never had a bad word to say about him.  Then there's Shatki's aidan and DV's Fox who have had their situations pan out.  I don't think Lashara has ever said a negative thing about her boy (though, granted, they didn't meet here).  While most people wouldn't accept the dynamic that I have with clip and I've posted a thing or two that hasn't always shown his best light, he's still a pretty darn good sub. 

Sure, the female Dominants come on here and post about the rough spots, too.  Would you really rather that it was different?  Even in successful dynamics, there are still going to be issues.  It's not always, or even often, going to be a case of meet someone, and everything is just going to be perfect from there on in.  It's still a life, not a fairy tale.  I know you're more realistic than that.

Yes, and sometimes it sucks.  I'm not going to blow smoke up your skirt about it.  At the same time, I'm not going to say that CM is the best scope of male submissives.  (No offense, boys, but she is right about one thing.  You have no clue of what the other side of the forums can be like.)  Maybe a more well rounded view is just what you need right now.  Don't limit yourself to just here.  The world's a lot bigger than just CM.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Venatrix)
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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 7:33:41 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Well, maybe once I get to that coast, I can drag you out to something just to have fun.  I won't be that far off from San Fransisco. 

 
That would be lovely.  If you can plan it for the end of September, the Folsom Street Fair will be on.  I think everyone kinky should experience it at least once.  "Regular-people" clothes aren't necessary.  Actually, if you wear regular-people clothes in San Francisco, everyone will stare.

You're absolutely right, of course, that not all of the submissives on the boards are bad.  The ones you mentioned certainly stand out as shining examples.  I know I've said nice things about Politesub and even Frankx can be mildly tolerable on occasion.  I'm thinking more of what I call the "kamikaze" subs:  the ones who dive in, fly out, and leave a pile of rude, ignorant postings behind.

Another thing struck me on the way home tonight.  One of the threads a few weeks ago that really had a negative impact on my thinking was the one where some of our regular posters were saying that they couldn't see the point to service if it didn't fulfill their kink in some way.  Either they had to enjoy the activity in a submissive way or they had to be promised playtime after their service was complete.  Someone had said words to the effect of why do it if there's no payoff, the implication being "kinky payoff."  Well, in my world, people do things for each other because they care about each other.  My brother doesn't say to his wife, "Honey, I'll build that bookcase for you if you'll have sex with me."  He builds the bookcase because his wife wants a new bookcase and he likes to see her happy.  So that's definitely one of the reasons why I wonder if a sub who claims to be service-orientated might be a worse bet than someone who is just plain kinky.  If there are going to be any strings attached, I'll be the one tying the knots.

But, yes, absolutely, do let me know when you're up this way.  Except for New York, San Francisco is the only city in the US I'd consider living in, and the weather is better here.  And we have Mr. S and Stormy Leather!
 

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 8:12:11 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		If you identify as a top who enjoys the activities you mention, then indeed you would be compatible with those who enjoy bottoming to those activities. Your comment about the submissive men submitting on their terms only makes me wonder if you enjoy D/s also. If so, I am unsure how much easier it would be if you seek those who enjoy bottoming to the said activities but not submission.

That there are many submissive men who are in happy relationships suggests to me that submissive men are not inherently flawed. It is difficult to find a compatible partner no matter what the orientation. I can empathize with frustration for not finding a compatible partner. That said, I think generalizing as flawed the whole class of those one seeks does not help with the search. Assuming such a stance might affect how one perceives or processes information or interactions, and what energy one conveys to a prospective partner.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Venatrix)
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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 8:51:49 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I think its best to let a person be who he is, and then respond to that. If you have a tug of war problem with another person just being himself, then its up to you to either change and adopt or move on.


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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 9:21:34 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I think its best to let a person be who he is, and then respond to that. If you have a tug of war problem with another person just being himself, then its up to you to either change and adopt or move on.



The only problem with this is that I would feel that he ought to let me be myself and he should be the one to change and adapt.  Realistically, the only option is to move on, which is what I've been doing.  I'm not interested in changing someone, and I'm certainly not interested in changing myself to conform to what someone else wants.

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RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 9:46:16 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		For the most part, that has been my experience. Guys who self-identify as bottoms/masochists, or open-minded vanilla, tend to be pretty low-drama, and more self-aware/communicative about what they're looking for. Some submissive men are wonderful, too, but all but one of the ones who were local who I tried to date just were difficult to schedule dates with, or dropped out of contact, or were completely out of line in person, or sent ridiculously poor e-mails compared to the self-identified bottoms, switches, and various types of Tops who I communicated with, both here and on the other BDSM personals site I used. This applies to both the last time I was looking, and a few years ago when I was looking at a couple of different points. I don't know that it's connected to submission at all - I'd tend to think not, but the pool of local submissive men seems to be very different than other BDSM orientations, in my experience.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 7/14/2009 9:58:10 PM >

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 10:19:52 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		FR, after read thru

Hi, Venatrix. I don't really have much experience to offer on the subject, but I have some speculative thoughts . . . . . They're meant to be helpful, so I hope you don't take any offense . . . .

The top thing that came to mind in contemplating this thread & your other recent postings is that I think you have rather high standards, & I say that in a completely admiring & complimentary way . . . . . & what seems to go with being particular is the need for some rather extreme patience coupled to maintaining faith that what you seek is out there . . ..

It strikes me that the tactic that's most pertinent to your OP is the idea of 'just living your life, focusing on all the many other things that occupy your time & / or bring you joy' & that the relationship you desire will show up one day when you're not really focused on that particular aspect of your life, out of the blue . . ... Which I suspect is pretty much what you've mostly been doing anyway . .. .

I do understand the frustration that 99.999% of the population is simply not gonna be suitable to ones particularities, that's where I'm at . . .. .

& I guess my thought that's specific to your OP is that you're probably best served keeping the parameters of possibility as broad as possible -- open to vanilla guys, kinky / fetishist identified guys, & s-type identified guys . .. . . The right one will be the right one regardless of labels . . ... .

Ah. & a final thought, an analogy that occurred to me as I was reading this thread. I don't let the raving lunatic man-hating feminists ruin feminism for me, I refuse to let that poison what feminism is. Similarly, I don't let the poor antics of so many guys ruin men for me. I like dom guys, too, & there's oodles of icky behaviors & attitudes on that side of the fence, but I focus my attention & desires on the ones (of whatever label) who display what I consider to be reasonable attitudes & behaviors . .. . .



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Snarko ergo sum.



The Verbossinator

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Sub Males vs. Bondage Enthusiasts and Masochists - 7/14/2009 11:15:47 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

For the most part, that has been my experience. Guys who self-identify as bottoms/masochists, or open-minded vanilla, tend to be pretty low-drama, and more self-aware/communicative about what they're looking for. Some submissive men are wonderful, too, but all but one of the ones who were local who I tried to date just were difficult to schedule dates with, or dropped out of contact, or were completely out of line in person, or sent ridiculously poor e-mails compared to the self-identified bottoms, switches, and various types of Tops who I communicated with, both here and on the other BDSM personals site I used. This applies to both the last time I was looking, and a few years ago when I was looking at a couple of different points. I don't know that it's connected to submission at all - I'd tend to think not, but the pool of local submissive men seems to be very different than other BDSM orientations, in my experience.


Just a corroborating point here.... there is some evidence it's not a local peculiarity at all, but rather a common experience. From what i've been able to determine (both observationally and anecdotaly), it's a very similar situation here in the Twin Cities, as well. I think if i were a dominant woman, I'd either become bi or give up and join a convent. Hell, maybe even both.


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What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 20
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