RE: HEALTH CARE (Full Version)

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cadenas -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 9:57:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

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Canada
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

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The only difference is who makes the decision, you or a bureaucrat.
The point you seem to miss willbuer (well one of many to be honest) is that it doesn't have to be that way. In Canada it is me and my doctor who decide what treatment I need, not some bureaucrat.



We've already discussed Canada ad nauseum. You and your doctor are welcome to decide on a course of treatment, and then you are welcome to wait 6 months to 2 years to get it.


It seems to me that you are talking about the US here... Because it's in the USA where you have to wait for HMO approval.




And how long does that take? There are numerous studies that compare wait times in the US and Canada, and if you try and claim they are longer here, you are sadly mistaken.


Care to share any of these studies?





philosophy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:00:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

Canada
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The only difference is who makes the decision, you or a bureaucrat.
The point you seem to miss willbuer (well one of many to be honest) is that it doesn't have to be that way. In Canada it is me and my doctor who decide what treatment I need, not some bureaucrat.



We've already discussed Canada ad nauseum. You and your doctor are welcome to decide on a course of treatment, and then you are welcome to wait 6 months to 2 years to get it.


It seems to me that you are talking about the US here... Because it's in the USA where you have to wait for HMO approval.




And how long does that take? There are numerous studies that compare wait times in the US and Canada, and if you try and claim they are longer here, you are sadly mistaken.


Care to share any of these studies?




....and are they comparing apples to oranges?

Show me a study that includes those in the US who have no insurance. In other words, lets compare waiting times across the entire population.......not just all of Canada and only those in the US with insurance.




cadenas -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:16:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

How about experience with the American health care system? Have you been hospitalized, spent time in an ICU and seen the copays and non-covered expenses rack up? No, because I paid for coverage, and sacrificed some other things I would have loved to have had.Do you have a chronic illness requiring ongoing medical care? YesHave you ever been denied care?  No, and legally no one can be denied careHas a small company you've worked for ever lost their insurance because you were an employee and had serious health issues, because the payouts for your care cut into the insurance company profits? Sorry, its too early in the morning to try and figure out what this is supposed to mean

Yeah, thought so.


You mean, you never had to pay a copay? Have I paid them? Of course. The question was did they "rack up". The answer is no, thats what Out of Pocket maximums are for. How much did you pay for your coverage? Currently about $9,000 family and $4500 individual. And would you care to share the law that says that insurances can't deny care?Insurance companies don't provide care, they provide coverage. A hospital cannot deny care for inability to pay. Surely you cant have missed that in the debate over illegal aliens.



OK, so you ARE paying copays, they just haven't amount to huge sums yet (presumably because you haven't been seriously ill yet. That would also explain your very low premiums). The out-of-pocket-maximums of course only are based on the assumption that your insurance won't be canceled when you reach it. And they are based on the assumption that there won't be an exception in the fine print. For instance, did you know that the out-of-pocket maximum may only apply AFTER your deductibles are met? And depending on what your policy says, your deductibles may start from scratch with every illness? It is entirely possible that even with an expensive illness, you will end up never reaching your out-of-pocket-maximum. Read the fine print.

The whole discussion is about insurance companies and about the ability to pay for care. So your claim that "insurance companies don't provide care but coverage" is disingenuous even though it may be technically correct.

You are sadly mistaken, a hospital can and will deny care if you don't have insurance. They cannot refuse to treat an immediate life-threatening emergency. So they may help you with a heart attack, but not with tuberculosis (which is why the USA now is leading the developed world in TB cases. And that is a threat to all of us, even those with insurance).

Don't believe what you hear from the anti-illegal-immigration propagandist. A very large part of "information" from that source, including the claim that "hospitals can't deny care" is very far removed from the truth. That's why I would want to see first-hand sources, not some third-hand rumors.





rulemylife -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:17:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

There are numerous studies that compare wait times in the US and Canada, and if you try and claim they are longer here, you are sadly mistaken.


And I'll be waiting in eager anticipation of you presenting some of those numerous studies.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:20:42 AM)

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The answer is no, thats what Out of Pocket maximums are for.


Out of Pocket Maximums -only- cover allowable charges -after- deductibles have been paid. Any amount -over- the allowable charge can be charged back to the patient and is -not- covered by 'out of pocket maximums'.

Example: I have renal arterial stenosis, secondary to spasticity from multiple sclerosis. Two years ago, I had to have a stent placed in my renal artery, on an emergency basis, when the renal arteries spasmed shut and my blood pressure went through the roof, causing a number of secondary symptoms. I was admitted through the Emergency Room (after a 6 hour wait for treatment and a 2 hour wait after the doctor had decided I needed to be admitted, in order to find a bed for me in the ICU -- which ended up being in the CICU). It took 2 days to arrange for the stent placement, which was placed through minimally-invasive surgery via the femoral artery. I spent 3 days post-op in the ICU, then 2 days on the regular ward. The cost for my treatment was $125,000 (rounded to the nearest $1000), inclusive. The -allowable- charges were $114,000 (leaving $9000 in charges the insurance company wouldn't pay). My insurance company paid 80% of those allowable charges ($91,000). My deductible amount was 20% ($23,000). Three months after I got out of the hospital, I was informed by my insurance company that the hospital was not a 'Preferred Provider' (now mind you, I'm with Blue Cross/Blue Shield here -- the most common carrier in the business -- and this was the main regional hospital in our city) and that I was responsible for the charges in excess of the "allowable charges". My total bill for that stay was $32000, between the deductible and the excess allowable charges. My -maximum- out of pocket for any given year is $5000, which ONLY covers the 20% deductible amount, NOT the "excess charges" amount. What that meant for -me- is that, even after the 'maximum out of pocket' clause, I still ended up owing the hospital $14,000. They were nice enough to give me a $3000 discount because I am a health professional at a nearby hospital -- so after all was said and done, I ended up owing $11,000, even with insurance and even with a 'maximum out-of-pocket' clause in my policy.

(From the Benefits booklet for my insurance plan)

Out-of-Pocket Maximum: Your share of eligible
expenses incurred during a plan year excluding the
copays (medical and prescription drug). After you reach
the out-of-pocket maximum, BCBS SELECT pays 100% of
the allowable amount for covered charges for the rest of
the plan year. Copays do not apply to the out-of-pocket
maximum. Preauthorization penalties and billed
charges exceeding the BCBS-- allowable amount
also do not apply to the out-of-pocket maximum.


Lucky you that you've never encountered any of this in your own experience, and I hope you never do. However, the proof is in the pudding... or the bills, as it were.

Dame Calla




rulemylife -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:24:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Insurance companies don't provide care, they provide coverage. A hospital cannot deny care for inability to pay. Surely you cant have missed that in the debate over illegal aliens.


A public hospital cannot turn away an emergency.

If you are receiving treatment for a condition and the physician recommends a certain treatment the insurance company can refuse coverage and the hospital is not going to absorb the cost.

Which I pointed out to you earlier in numerous links that you apparently chose to ignore.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:34:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Lucky you that you've never encountered any of this in your own experience, and I hope you never do.


Actually, I hope he does. Not because I have anything against the guy, but because I would like every one of the conservatives who are blocking civilized health care in this country (and make no mistake, blocking it is exactly what Willbe and his ilk are doing) to experience firsthand what they're talking about. They clearly have no sympathy or compassion for others; why should we have any for them?




philosophy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:37:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They clearly have no sympathy or compassion for others; why should we have any for them?



....because we do have compassion for others.

In a very real sense, what willbe and his supporters are doing is cultural terrorism. The aim of terrorism is to make the targets act with the same disregard for others as the terrorists, thus justifying (in their eyes) the original act. i'll not give in to terrorists...whether they use bombs or dishonest arguments.




Lockit -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:50:17 AM)

It is very clear that willbeurdaddy doesn't know either the Canadian or American medical systems or insurance companies. Nor does he get that his stubborn refusal to believe/accept/understand/comprehend that his experience's are different from what other's have experienced and since he hasn't experienced it and thinks that insurance and good health will always be within his control or as he can see them, doesn't see that his stand isn't a realistic because he simply hasn't experienced them 'yet'.

It is like the young woman who thinks pregnancy won't happen to her or the guy who thinks he is immune to std's.

For those of us in the US, who have had experience with good insurance companies, HMO's and the medical profession or the lack of them, from at least the patient side of things to be wrong and he is correct just sounds like stubborn ignorance. I dare say he hasn't seen as many doctors as I have. I have been with all sorts of insurance companies until they decided I was a naughty girl with all my odd illness's and wouldn't allow me to take part in their programs. No... I dare say that as time goes on, if things are not changed, mr inexperienced may one day see what really happened and the truth of these matters... when and if that mini van gets him or his heart decides to pump a lil differently or a weight problem comes whether he takes care of himself or not and there is a medical reason behind it.

I'm not one to hope someone has a rude awakening, but darn he sure makes one wish it for a moment just so he would fully understand and keep quiet about things he doesn't know about.





slaveboy291 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:52:06 AM)

I don't think it's a matter of lack of compassion, and more a case of just like with guns blind ideology rather than looking at the real issues.




philosophy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:53:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

I don't think it's a matter of lack of compassion, and more a case of just like with guns blind ideology rather than looking at the real issues.


...you may be right...but in the end it's the same result.




Lockit -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:58:35 AM)

Although some believe that in the states that no one can be denied surgery if they need it, that is not true. Hospitals may be required to do emergency treatment to stablize someone, but they do not have to do anything more than that. If the surgery isn't life threatening, they don't have to do it and this I know first hand. I have seen where the uninsured are sent to another hospital and have seen devistating results because of it.

I have seen this ignorance in what people think social security is and provides for them since they paid money for it and think they get it automatically when a doctor says they need it because they are ill and disabled. lol... Sadly many are quite shocked when it is their time to learn about the real truth of how it all works. Just because you paid and a doctor says you need it doesn't mean you will get it right away or at all and sometimes you lose everything you have before you get it. Many end up homeless.

I have been in limbo for getting close to twenty years now because you can't get disability unless the doctors know what is going on with you and you have a diagnosis. Then if they can't find it all in time and you have been unable to work, you don't have enough work credits to get disabilty and must get ssi.

I think many are ignorant to how things really work or don't work and unfortunately, they do sometimes get a very rude awakening and life devistation that many of us have known and lived for a long, long time. One can try to blame this on the person and most likely could fit into their denial, reasons those people are in trouble... but wait until it is them or someone in their family. I'd like to hear what they have to say at that point.  They will be one of the first one's looking up one of us who have been there, crying the blues.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 10:58:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They clearly have no sympathy or compassion for others; why should we have any for them?



....because we do have compassion for others.

In a very real sense, what willbe and his supporters are doing is cultural terrorism. The aim of terrorism is to make the targets act with the same disregard for others as the terrorists, thus justifying (in their eyes) the original act. i'll not give in to terrorists...whether they use bombs or dishonest arguments.


The way I look at it, they're coming from one of two places - either willfull ignorance of the issue with which they are interfering, or genuine malice. Being the sort of person who always looks for the best in humanity, I choose to believe they are starting from a position of ignorance. Their ignorance is creating incredible hardship and suffering for tens of millions of people, and innocent people are dying every day as a direct result of their willful ignorance. Any compassion or sympathy I may feel for them is more than outweighed by the compassion and sympathy I feel for the victims of their ignorance. If experiencing firsthand some of the circumstances they insist do not exist is what it takes to educate them, then so be it. I have no problem with that; none.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 11:02:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

I don't think it's a matter of lack of compassion, and more a case of just like with guns blind ideology rather than looking at the real issues.


I'd be inclined to agree, if their arguments were not so dependent upon completely false assertions and outright lies. In this day and age, with as much access to information as we all have, there's no excuse for claiming, for example, that we don't need health care reform because hospitals are obligated to treat everyone, insured or otherwise. They're either willfully ignorant, or utterly devoid of compassion. Or a combination of the two.




thishereboi -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 11:08:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and are they comparing apples to oranges?

Show me a study that includes those in the US who have no insurance. In other words, lets compare waiting times across the entire population.......not just all of Canada and only those in the US with insurance.



I have seen doctors when I have had insurance and I have seen them without it. The wait time was basically the same. Usually the same day to see my family doctor. They purposely leave slots open for emergencies. When I have had to have procedures done or see specialists it has taken anywhere from a week to a few weeks depending on the urgency.




Lockit -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 11:12:45 AM)

I just had my ex husband... and ex for 26 years come visit me. He left me when I weighed 78 pounds, had just given birth and had years of unknown ailments that he treated me like a hypocondriac for. I had sprung and tore every muscle and ligiment in my back, had a goiter on my thyroid that was the size of a baseball, could not eat and was dying. I was just a hypercondriac and trying to get out of working.

I got well because I found a great doctor and had great insurance from the railroad. I bounced back because of determination to be well and care for my um and did all I could to do so. I created a career and a life and a good one, with lots of friends... until I married a man who had chemicals from work that he carried to me and made every genetic thing I had flare up. Boom! I floated and nearly drowned... but I kept swinging my arms enough to make it. But that didn't mean I wouldn't sink at some point.

So my ex is here, stayed for quite a while and he saw first hand what I lived with and he left determined to find a way to get someone to help me. I am thankful he learned a few lessons... like that none of it was my fault and he lost one damn fine woman he would love to have back now that he understands... but like the medical systems and other agencies or offices that are involved... I cannot trust once they have fucked me over more like a rape than a good fucking.

So... willbeurdaddy.. I would like to invite you to come to my home and stay here long enough to learn the truth of many things, including my survior attitude, my joy within despite many things... and just how it all works. I will show you documentations that prove that I am not the only one and years of research that I still have from my many years helping those who were in denial find truth. Care to join me?




Mercnbeth -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 11:55:04 AM)

quote:

I have seen this ignorance in what people think social security is and provides for them since they paid money for it and think they get it automatically when a doctor says they need it because they are ill and disabled. lol... Sadly many are quite shocked when it is their time to learn about the real truth of how it all works. Just because you paid and a doctor says you need it doesn't mean you will get it right away or at all and sometimes you lose everything you have before you get it. Many end up homeless.
Yet in this case you put your trust in the same government and bureaucrats who represented that SS WOULD do exactly what you say it is NOT doing. How do you reconcile your facts?

Even considering the past 3+ years of terrible private sector investment, anyone of my age who could have put the same amount contributed to SS into a retirement fund would have Millions waiting for my retirement. I expect, and have been told, to not expect any monthly return from my SS "investment", let alone have Millions available for retirement.

BTW - I think SS is a VERY good example of why putting the responsibility for your health and health-care into the hands of the government makes as much sense as putting your retirement security in their hands.

quote:

I don't think it's a matter of lack of compassion, and more a case of just like with guns blind ideology rather than looking at the real issues.
The other side of the issue is different? Most of the examples are exceptions. Whether its the small child born of poor parents, or the majority of births that occur under the present systems with and without insurance coverage.

When the "real issues" of cost, implementation, and the other major factors, such as litigation costs, contributory to the existing situation are detailed and addressed pragmatically then the issue of who is compassionate and who isn't can be considered.

Or is it anticipated that all the horror stories regarding current health care coverage and its bureaucracy be the first thing 'cured' by this program? Will a new version of government worker be created to man the phones and manage the care and arrange and prioritize appointments?

quote:

like the medical systems and other agencies or offices that are involved... I cannot trust once they have fucked me over more like a rape than a good fucking. I have been in limbo for getting close to twenty years now because you can't get disability unless the doctors know what is going on with you and you have a diagnosis.


How do you think your experience would have been different under a government run health program?

Were those "agencies or offices" insurance companies, or government? Did you file a complaint with the Insurance Department in the State you lived?




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 12:07:52 PM)

President Obama is having a press conference tonight at 8 PM on health care, in case anybody wants to watch it.




Lockit -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 12:17:57 PM)

The only way I can look at it is like being between a rock and another rock. Which rock do you want? I truely believe that anything they put together is going to be a mess, but I also believe that it is already a mess. Who can say what is best to do? I don't trust... I don't believe... I just know that for me and other's like me, it will be better than what we have.

The one thing with social security... it may not come quickly, but it typically comes.  If I have to wait for a year for some treatment, it beats waiting for many, many, many years. My life expectancy is not pretty without treatment and so far... I get nothing in the way of treatment. I will die earlier because I cannot find help and I live with that fact every single day and men run from me because of that fact. Let's just say... I wasn't too lucky... but damn it, I am not giving up, man or no man, heath care or no health care... but I will serve as a reminder of what can happen to just about anyone, from most income levels.

My son gets a decent amount of socail security because he made good money. He had insurance... but they let it work for him for almost two months and then it was a done deal and off to the welfare office I had to go... the hospital insisted. There we got the rest of his hospital bill paid and then the shaft. He needed 24-7 care... could not be left alone for even a couple minutes... and what happened? It took two years to get his disability because the HOSPITAL... was still covering their ass for what they neglected to do and would not send his medical records when I was told they had.  When the social security judge saw my son he could not believe what I was trying to do in supporting him with no assistance and approved him on the spot! That just doesn't happen too often.

What is right?  What is wrong?  I can't say what is best for everyone, but I can say as long as the medical community and insurance companies do as they do, I would rather take my chances with the government as much as I hate to say that.

The bottom line is... what do we do with people like me? They shoot horses gone lame... shall we get out the guns and line them up?  Shall we ignore them until they cost the tax payer far more money? There have been times in all this when I would have gladly used that gun myself and well the honest truth is.. with the pain I live with and the hassle and the name calling when I beg for some narcotic to ease my pain and the insults and neglect year after year, if it weren't for my son needing me... I wouldn't be here harassing people. It isn't depression, I am very happy and have been most my life... I am just very tired of putting one foot in front of the other every moment of every day and having no help, treatment or relief.

That's enough to encourage some change.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/22/2009 12:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

The only way I can look at it is like being between a rock and another rock. Which rock do you want? I truely believe that anything they put together is going to be a mess, but I also believe that it is already a mess. Who can say what is best to do?


That's the problem I'm having, as well. Every day that this goes on, it looks like even more of a clusterfuck than what they're trying to fix. There's no question our current health care system needs to be fixed, but there's increasingly little reason to believe that what they're trying to cobble together with duct tape and chewing gum is going to benefit anyone but the very people who fucked it up the first place, and maybe not even them. Bottom line is, this is perhaps the most important domestic issue this country has tried to address in my lifetime, and today I have almost zero confidence they're going to get it right.




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