RE: HEALTH CARE (Full Version)

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Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 12:30:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

So you feel that people who hear/read the news/commentary and such are influenced to the point of not being able to be objective, do some research and have a mind of their own? I find that interesting.


I find it interesting that you seemingly have no realization that what you hear from others affects your perceptions.

It's a common thing.

Even journalists, who are paid to be objective (except if they work for Rupert Murdoch) will admit it is impossible to not be somewhat influenced by outside sources.



Bill Moyers did a show about this and it was a real eye opener and fascinating. Please take a look, you won't be disappointed

Bill Moyers talks with alternative media heavyweights Glenn Greenwald and Amy Goodman about what can and can’t be addressed in big corporate media. Amy Goodman and Glenn Greenwald are the first recipients of Park Center for Independent Media Izzy Award (named for I.F. Stone). Find out more about I.F. Stone's life and legacy

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch2.html





mcbride -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 1:25:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

 If its so good in Canada why are the parking spots around medical facilities in border/near border cities in the US filled with Canadian license plates?


Just a factual correction for you, willbeurdaddy, from a study called
Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians’ Use Of Health Care Services In The United States.  It surveyed American health facilities in border states.

To paraphrase, close to 40 percent of those American health facilities reported treating no Canadians over the course of the year, and another 40 percent had seen fewer than ten patients. Only about 5 percent reported seeing more than 25 during the previous year. None reported more than 100.

Many of those patients are in the US, incidentally, willbeurdaddy, because of contracts between health facilities on each side of the border, meaning similar numbers of Americans are sent to Canadian facilities for treatment.

But hey, I'm dazzled that you can see those parking lots from California.

And believe me, it's great to need health services and never have to worry.





cadenas -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 1:55:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
Brain:
Maybe you can tell me why Obama, Congress and Senate won't have to participate in this plan, but will keep their own plan they have now. As Obama said last night " The best health plan in the world ".


Because that was part of the compromise during the Primaries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
Maybe you can tell me why Ted Kennedy is entitled to half a dozen MRI's, tests, blue pill, red pill, Primary Care MD, Oncologist, nutritionist, Nuerologist, nuclear scans and chemotherapy, radiation of the finest, more follow up MRIS and more tests and more follow up scans, yet when we get our new downgrade, we ain't gonna be entitled to the same caliber of healthcare they will continue to enjoy ? Why is Mr. Kennedy's health more important than mine or yours ?


Huh? I didn't know it was possible to downgrade from uninsured - which applies to a third of the US population if you include those who have health insurance in name only.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
And while you're at it, splain to me how we can add 50 million people to a national healthcare plan and " make money or even save money ".  The current Medicare system isn't even covering expenses.


Actually, you may want to double-check your data. Medicare is far more efficient than private health insurance DESPITE covering the sickest and most expensive patients (the elderly). Medicare does all that with 4% administrative overhead and premiums that are far lower than my premium would be if I could afford insurance. Meanwhile, private insurance wastes more than 30% on administrative overhead, including CEO bonuses and dividends.

The cheapest option by far would be to simply open up Medicare for everybody, but that is not politically doable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
You say claiming that tax money will be needed to pay for this program is a scare tactic. Ok, tell me where the magic money is coming from. We have the largest deficit ever and you are telling me that there is money somewhere to foot this bill ? Fuck it, take the money, pay off the debt and let me keep my health insurance.


Quite frankly, I'd have to ask you where the money would come from for NOT reforming health insurance - about two trillion dollars over the next ten years. (source: http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml ) I'd say that 100 billion per year is a bargain in that light!

And on a personal level: with premiums for a young and healthy family exceeding $1000 per month, more than most mortgage payments, I'd gladly pay a little more in taxes instead!





Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 3:08:56 AM)

Good answer, I guess the facts get in the way for some people.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 3:23:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

 If its so good in Canada why are the parking spots around medical facilities in border/near border cities in the US filled with Canadian license plates?


Just a factual correction for you, willbeurdaddy, from a study called
Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians’ Use Of Health Care Services In The United States.  It surveyed American health facilities in border states.

To paraphrase, close to 40 percent of those American health facilities reported treating no Canadians over the course of the year, and another 40 percent had seen fewer than ten patients. Only about 5 percent reported seeing more than 25 during the previous year. None reported more than 100.

Many of those patients are in the US, incidentally, willbeurdaddy, because of contracts between health facilities on each side of the border, meaning similar numbers of Americans are sent to Canadian facilities for treatment.

But hey, I'm dazzled that you can see those parking lots from California.

And believe me, it's great to need health services and never have to worry.



quote:

willbeurdaddy


I think willbeurdaddy has been watching too much Fox news, O'Reilly, Hannity and Ann Coulter. He is probably drinking the Kool aid while he's watching. He started some other thread about about corrupt Democrats which is unbelievable considering how many Republicans have had legal problems recently during the Bush years. Maybe Dick Cheney will be investigated too for telling the CIA not to inform Congress but that's another topic




maybemaybenot -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 5:39:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas


Actually, you may want to double-check your data. Medicare is far more efficient than private health insurance DESPITE covering the sickest and most expensive patients (the elderly). Medicare does all that with 4% administrative overhead and premiums that are far lower than my premium would be if I could afford insurance. Meanwhile, private insurance wastes more than 30% on administrative overhead, including CEO bonuses and dividends.

The cheapest option by far would be to simply open up Medicare for everybody, but that is not politically doable.



I dug back to find an older link, so that I could not be accused of falling under scare tactics of current situation. This is pre talk of Universal Heathcare. Now keep in mind these figures have gone up, not down, because of cuts to Medicare since this article was written.


  • Almost 25% of doctors refuse to treat new Medicare patients;
  • 20% of those who refuse to accept new Medicare patients, do so because of hassles and/or threats from Medicare carriers;
  • More than one-third of doctors have trouble finding referral doctors for Medicare patients;
  • More than one-third of doctors surveyed are restricting services to Medicare patients;
  • Almost one-fifth of doctors give Medicare patients a lower priority for appointments;
  • More than 80% of doctors have an increased fear of investigation or prosecution;
  • More than one-fourth of doctors are restricting services to Medicare patients because of hassles/threats from Medicare.

Ding, ding, ding :

HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU AND YOUR STAFF SPEND ON COMPLIANCE WITH MEDICARE REGULATIONS?

22%
ESTIMATED COST TO YOUR OFFICE:

To process a Medicare Claim $14.70
To process a private claim $11.50
Differential 27%

http://www.aapsonline.org/medicare/medrep.htm

                     mbmbn




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 6:49:41 AM)

Senate Health Care Reform Vote Delayed Until Sept. - Reid


http://www.huliq.com/3257/83950/senate-health-care-reform-vote-delayed-until-sept-reid




willbeurdaddy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 7:59:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Umm, Brain ? I'm not blaming this on Kennedy. I used him as an example of  the hypocracy of it all. Obama doesn't want you, or your child to have repeated testing or a red pill when a blue will work, but Kennedy < the example, but applies to all on the federal program > can do exactly what Obama is saying is killing the healthcare in this country.

Providing health insurance to employees is one of the biggest financial burdens on companies, if not the biggest. Do you really think corporations will continue to offer health insurance when the Gvt. creates it for us ? The simple answer is : No. We will be stuck with whatever is shoved down our throats.



Corporations are not going to provide health care because it makes them uncompetitive. They will go out of business if they have to provide health care for their employees they cannot compete in this new global economy. True for some businessess, not true for others. with the increasing role of services in our economy, NOT providing health care is a competitive DISadvantage for some.

So if the government doesn’t provide it nobody will and if you have to pay for it yourself it’s just not going to work. Conclusions based on faulty premises...FAIL Look at the great benefits people get working for Wal-Mart as part-time employees. Not. It depends on their hours. And who are those part-time employees generally? Are benefits important to them?

If you got in a car accident and it cost $10,000 to fix your car and $10,000 for the other guy, so already you are out $20,000. Most people can afford that maybe but it could be worse. What if the other guy had a serious injury and he sued for all his medical expenses and other expenses into the future? That could be getting into the millions of dollars. It just doesn’t work. You have to have insurance if you get in a car accident.

You also must have health insurance. Also, if companies are moving or trending towards not providing it by making deductibles more expensive, and these plans were getting worse and worse as time goes by, then the only place people will get decent health insurance is to get it from the government. did you ever shop for health insurance? There are a myriad of options with deductibles and OOP limits that are all over the place. Why do you think the government stepping in would magically change anything? all the government can do is either add costs or ration. Both suck.

That’s why this bill has to pass preferably with the single-payer option. Because too many people are going to have health and financial crisis in their lives. And if they don’t do something people will go bankrupt. false dichotomy Already the number one reason Americans go bankrupt is because of health care costs. You will be better off with the government plan anyway. At least the government will not take you off because you are costing too much. That's what happens with private companies providing insurance.No it doesnt. Health care policies generally cannot be cancelled because you contract a covered illness. The most frequent cause of cancellation is material ommissions in applications, by far.

Believe it or not, the healthcare you get from the government will be better than from the private sector. And there will always be entrepreneurs trying to make money by providing health care services to people outside of the government. They talk about Canada but do you know that people in Canada can still get Blue Cross? There are all kinds of doctors setting up places/business in Canada where people can go and get health services outside the system. So you will still have other private sector options if the bill passes. Yup, all you have to do is pay twice. If enough people feel the way you do somebody will meet your demands and provide the service.

They have to abandon this health care reform bill. Passage is not an option. FYP






Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 12:07:04 PM)

Blue Dogs: We Have Agreement With House Dems On Health Bill

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158522.php




willbeurdaddy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 12:13:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Blue Dogs: We Have Agreement With House Dems On Health Bill

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158522.php



on Medicare cost cuts only. A long way to go. Aug 4th is dead, and the more time people have to read a 1000 page pile of garbage the more they will notice its stench.




Arpig -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 12:52:11 PM)

quote:

Aug 4th is dead, and the more time people have to read a 1000 page pile of garbage the more they will notice its stench.
I haven't read the bill, and have no intention of doing so, but good, bad, indifferent, if its 1000 pages of dense legalese, then Damn straight people need a lot more time to read it and understand it. Having read some laws, I know how fucking hard it can be to understand just what they mean. Trying to rush this thing through is a bad idea on something as important as this. If this bill gets passed, and it is flawed, you guys will be stuck with the results for a damned long time, I just don't see the topic being revisited any time in the near future.

As I said, I don't know what is in the bill, but the pressure to pass it immediatly certainly gives the impression that there is something to hide. Surely there is little harm in taking the time to understand the bill and to debate it properly, a few months more will not make that much of a difference one way or the other. The present Canadian system was nearly 40 years in the making, allowing all the various governments involved to tailor their systems and to deal with the various problems that arose. The process continues to this day, with each level of government continually tweaking their programs to improve them. This is one of the reasons why our system works as well as it does, because it wasn't a rushed half-assed band aid solution.

From what little I do know of the bill, I would be willing to guess that it is flawed, simply because it tries to patch together a government run universal plan with the existing for-profit model of health care and coverage. What I see resulting is an abortion of a system which will combine the worst aspects of the present system with the worst aspects of a government run system (and there are bad points). I agree with those who are opposed to having health care decisions based on profits for the insurance companies (and that is what happens in many HMOs), and by trying to preserve their profit margins while extending health care coverage to everybody regardless of their ability to pay is bound to create a Frankenstein of a system. With the existance of a tax supported government program, you will see more and more employers deciding not to fund private plans for their employees, which will cut into the insurance company profits, resulting in higher premiums and even more pressure to deny treatment whenever possible. The government should set a minimum coverage that is automatically extended to all and sundry, and allow those with the desire and financial means to purchase more comprehensive coverage. This system works and works well, all have health coverage, those with the means have better coverage, and insurance companies make money....seems like a win-win to me.

Those who argue that the federal gvt doesn't have the authority to run a health care program may well be right, in Canada health care is specifically reserved to the provinces, this is dealt with by the federal level setting certain requirements and standards of care which the provincial programs must comply with in order to get access to federal funding for their programs. The US lawmakers would do well to aim for a similar method, allowing each state to run its own program, and controlling minimum standards through the power of its $$$. Canada and the US are very similar in nature, both being federations rather than unitary nation states on the European model and the basic approach that works here has a really good chance of working south of the border as well.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 1:55:16 PM)

I don't think the rush is out of a desire to hide anything (as it was in the stimulus bill), I think its more to get something done before BO loses more credibility and slips in the polls further.

I also think that there are enormous differences between 50 states and 10 provinces, half(?) of which are sparsely populated. If there are savings to be found by fiat in the US system (outside of tort reform), they would be in streamlining/standardization of administration and that screams for a Federal role, not a state role. And of course streamlining administration means centralizing data, and there is tremendous resistance to that even at the private level. Adminstration is an enormously difficult animal to tame, its caused the profitability of several once mighty consulting firms to nosedive, and so far outsourcing hasn't proved any more succesful.




Lorr47 -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 2:39:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

So you feel that people who hear/read the news/commentary and such are influenced to the point of not being able to be objective, do some research and have a mind of their own? I find that interesting.


I find it interesting that you seemingly have no realization that what you hear from others affects your perceptions.

It's a common thing.

Even journalists, who are paid to be objective (except if they work for Rupert Murdoch) will admit it is impossible to not be somewhat influenced by outside sources.



Bill Moyers did a show about this and it was a real eye opener and fascinating. Please take a look, you won't be disappointed

Bill Moyers talks with alternative media heavyweights Glenn Greenwald and Amy Goodman about what can and can’t be addressed in big corporate media. Amy Goodman and Glenn Greenwald are the first recipients of Park Center for Independent Media Izzy Award (named for I.F. Stone). Find out more about I.F. Stone's life and legacy

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch2.html




I have not read all the replies here, but the Rose conversation with the CEO and President of Mayo clinic Wednesday night Thursday morning. was one of the most informative 30 minutes I  have heard.

First, we do not have a "health system".  We are trying to create our first and it is giving us a great opportunity.  Think in terms of IMAC and 2, 4 and 5 year plans.  They have been trying to start a "plan" since 1935.  You can listen to the statements of the naysayers and you will find that 1935 naysayers are using the same arguments as the 2009 naysayers.

The CEO is putting his life on hold and will be focusing on this issue.  He said that if the system is not created, if we do nothing, that the United States of America will be bankrupt by 2015.  The biggest obstacle to solving the problem is the lobbyists and the people they pay.  He deals with the problem both on a macro and micro level.

To those actually trying to solve the problem rather than just screw with Obama the CEO is very informative.




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 3:31:52 PM)

Massachusetts Proposal To End Fee-For-Service Could Be National Model

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158537.php




Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 3:44:36 PM)

Young Adults Face Tough Time Getting Insurance

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158535.php




cadenas -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 3:51:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I haven't read the bill, and have no intention of doing so, but good, bad, indifferent, if its 1000 pages of dense legalese, then Damn straight people need a lot more time to read it and understand it. Having read some laws, I know how fucking hard it can be to understand just what they mean. Trying to rush this thing through is a bad idea on something as important as this. If this bill gets passed, and it is flawed, you guys will be stuck with the results for a damned long time, I just don't see the topic being revisited any time in the near future.

As I said, I don't know what is in the bill, but the pressure to pass it immediatly certainly gives the impression that there is something to hide. Surely there is little harm in taking the time to understand the bill and to debate it properly, a few months more will not make that much of a difference one way or the other.


I, too, am very concerned about what may be lurking in the 1000 pages - intentionally or unintentionally, or even slipped in by some staffer minutes before they vote on it.

But there are two good reasons for pushing it urgently. First, as you said, it was 40 years in the making in Canada. We have done NOTHING for 40 years, and now have a crisis of gargantuan magnitude that needs to be addressed quickly. It shouldn't have been that way, but it is an outcome of the US political and lobbying culture, as well as the political history of the last 30 years. And now we are dealing with the fallout. For that matter, the current system (employer-based health care) came about as a compromise 50 years ago to address the rising cost of health care!

The second reason it MUST be passed before Christmas is that the window of opportunity is closing. Right now, for the first time in a very long time, we have the White House and both houses in Democratic hands. All Representatives and a third of Senators are up for reelection in November 2010 - and that means that the election campaigns start heating up. The last thing you would want is the debate to be dragged into the election cycle - if you do, the reform won't have enough time to prove itself, and may well be undone by the incoming House. For pretty much the same reason, it also can't wait until Obama's second term.





Brain -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 4:06:38 PM)

Another Day, Another ‘Republican Activist’ Caught Sending Racist Anti-Obama Crap


http://wonkette.com/410039/another-day-another-republican-activist-caught-sending-racist-anti-obama-crap




willbeurdaddy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 4:09:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Young Adults Face Tough Time Getting Insurance

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158535.php



I dont understand the title, because it doesnt really relate to the article. A more appropriate title would have been "Young Adults Face Tough Time Getting a Job and Dont Want or Cant pay for Insurance". Its not at all tough to get if they want it. I'm paying $96 a month for a very comprehensive plan including Dental coverage for my oldest son who has a no benefits/commission only job after graduating, and he had literally dozens of offers.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 4:11:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Another Day, Another ‘Republican Activist’ Caught Sending Racist Anti-Obama Crap


http://wonkette.com/410039/another-day-another-republican-activist-caught-sending-racist-anti-obama-crap



[/hijack] I hope.




kittinSol -> RE: HEALTH CARE (7/24/2009 4:15:04 PM)

You're right. Health coverage should be like caviar: only available to those that can afford it. It's a fucking luxury after all. How dare those proles imply that they should somehow be given a right to healthcare? Let them work their ass off and produce more proles for the tomato fields - after all, they're so easy to replace.




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