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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 10:17:46 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Panda ,the operating table metaphor is ridiculous.....grant the student is admitted into medical school due to some affirmative action program...if he is not up to the curriculum....he never winds up operating on me or you.
Affirmative action strives to find qualified minorities for positions....not simply minorities to fill quotas.Please show me one instance of someone floating thru medical or law school....based solely on AA programs.False and extremely flawed premise and not worthy of your usual postings


No, Mike, it is not ridiculous. If you're suggesting that every doctor who comes out of medical school is equally competent and equally qualified simply by virtue of having graduated, I'd say that was a better example of ridiculous, and certainly a denial of reality. The world is full of doctors who are, at best, marginally competent and at worst have no business practicing medicine at all. And every one of the managed to graduate med school and pass the boards. Having to work your ass off, apply yourself to the best of your ability, and claw your way to the very top of whatever group of people you're competing against  is one of the best indicators of competence you can find in any field. In fact, I believe that i recall seeing you yourself arguing from time to time that one indicator of George Bush's incompetence was that he was a poor student, and that he squeaked through Harvard and Yale on "gentleman's 'C's". If I'm recalling incorrectly, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure I recall you making and/or agreeing with that argument on more than one occasion. If that's true, then can you explain why the same criteria should not apply to doctors, and other professionals?

At any rate, I stand by my point. Consistently, in profession after profession, across the board, the people who demonstrate competence at what they do for a living are more often than not the people who have demonstrated competence and a commitment to achievement at all stages in their lives, from their early school years on. And of course you can shoot back anecdotal examples of people whose career paths haven't fit that pattern, but it won't disprove the validity of the point. Unless you're prepared to argue that academic achievement has no bearing whatsoever on professional competency, in which case you may as well argue that we should just throw out admission standards altogether and admit people to whatever graduate school they like on a first-come, first-served basis. If you graduate, great. You're a doctor. If you don't, that's fine too. You can drive a truck. It all works out in the end.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 7/17/2009 10:19:45 AM >

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 10:54:57 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

And of course you can shoot back anecdotal examples of people whose career paths haven't fit that pattern, but it won't disprove the validity of the point.


...maybe, maybe not. However, those exceptions may prove another point.  The exceptions tend to be those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and either by taking advantage of assistence or pure ability manage to excel in their chosen fields. The latter group, the true talents, are one thing. It's that former group i'm interested in. It points to an untapped pool of potential. How many people, born into disadvantaged backgrounds, had the potential to cure cancer? Write symphonies? Create the next new paradigm shifting technology?

Affirmative action may well be a sledgehammer......but there's a tough nut to crack there. Merely leaving it to individuals to shift society away from injustice has rarely, if ever, worked in history. It takes pressure on government, followed by government acting....and there's a real payoff here. All that wasted potential.........tap it and there's a new age possible.

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 11:53:12 AM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		SlaveMike finally answered my question. In the mind of a liberal (guilty white liberal) affirmative action will never end. Discrimination will continue ad nauseum...

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 12:11:21 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Did Buchanan really say that this country was built 100% by whites (white males, presumably)?! What a sad fuck  .

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 12:30:53 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Yes Kittin...apparently he was not aware how much help in the form of slave labor those very same white men had.
Servant,you know damm well this guilty white liberal never said that.....I would repeat what I said,but if you chose to misconstrue it in the first place,whats the sense.On the other hand maybe you are just expressing a view that we as a nation will never reach the standard Kennedy set?
Panda your original hypothesis had nothing to do with the existence of good doctors and bad.You asked about going on a table facing brain surgery or heart surgery(don't fell like scrolling back to see which).Either way a highly specialized field....one in which no AA program is helping you through,though perhaps AA got you into a pre med program at a better college.
And I stand by my point that most beneficiaries of these programs have worked harder and overcome more obstacles in order to take advantage of these programs.
There was a thread here a while back that posed the question of white privilege in this country....I don't wish to re argue that thread.....but IMO there is just such a privilege and a commiserate disadvantage to being black.....AA programs help to balance that inequity.

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 1:34:10 PM   
handmaid


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Status: offline 		Hi Mike :-)

In any event, I believe it's a mistake to fall into the pro/against affirmative action argument on this thread. That's only a hook in Buchanan's hate.

No, what this is about is a hateful politicians trying to score cheapo political points by attacking an Obama nominee - after all, where was Buchanan when Clarence Thomas (rofl!!!) was nominated to the Supreme Court, hmmm? Because, according to his line of reasoning... Thomas was appointed as a token black guy (where are his law publications? Where are his books?). Nothing more. More worryingly, Buchanan seems to be arguing that no one but white men should access the Supreme Court because, after all, it is them that built this country.
 
 

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 1:35:03 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Bingo.

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 2:26:06 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		Pat's the kind of guy who watched "The Confederate States of America" and got a hard on.

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 2:51:36 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

And of course you can shoot back anecdotal examples of people whose career paths haven't fit that pattern, but it won't disprove the validity of the point.


...maybe, maybe not. However, those exceptions may prove another point.  The exceptions tend to be those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds and either by taking advantage of assistence or pure ability manage to excel in their chosen fields. The latter group, the true talents, are one thing. It's that former group i'm interested in. It points to an untapped pool of potential. How many people, born into disadvantaged backgrounds, had the potential to cure cancer? Write symphonies? Create the next new paradigm shifting technology?


And that's a good point, of course. That illustrates why this is one of those issues with no easy answer. But your argument could just as easily go the other way - how many white kids who can't afford to put themselves through school have the same potential, and will wind up driving trucks because a "C" student from a minority group got the scholarship they needed to get into college?



quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Affirmative action may well be a sledgehammer......but there's a tough nut to crack there. Merely leaving it to individuals to shift society away from injustice has rarely, if ever, worked in history. It takes pressure on government, followed by government acting....and there's a real payoff here. All that wasted potential.........tap it and there's a new age possible.


But is affirmative action the way to solve the problem? Or is it just creating a different-colored group of people who are denied the opportunity to succeed? Is remedying an unfairness by creating a different unfairness a proper way to right any wrong?


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 4:19:00 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

But is affirmative action the way to solve the problem? Or is it just creating a different-colored group of people who are denied the opportunity to succeed? Is remedying an unfairness by creating a different unfairness a proper way to right any wrong?



....probably not. However, at the time it was introduced it probably seemed the only way to make people stop acting on prejudice. Nowadays thats less likely, but still possible.
In all fairness i'd prefer a version of affirmative action based not on whatever race you are, but on economic grounds. Thing is, to some, that will still look as if its based on race because there is still an imbalance.

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 6:41:14 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Phil we were politely set down with our sponsor and explained the situation. They wanted her to attend and offered to put her on a waiting list for aid. Waiting was not an option so I paid full tuition.

We were told they had to fill their minority quota it was a school mandate. I asked if the kids had comparable scores to my daughter. He said no but 18 was all that was required for minority admittance. So I would assume they were lower if not 18 exactly.

It was hard but I managed and it has paid off so I am not poor mouthing but would have felt a lot better about the situation if they had told me it was based on ability to pay rather than strictly race.

No one should or would feel discriminated against if aid were based on financial and academic standing.

Butch


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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 7:44:52 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		We have to get back to basics here. Discrimination is wrong, period. It can't be justified because the majority is being discriminated against. It has to stop..

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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 8:11:12 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
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Status: offline 		Well,if we are going to get back to basics here....bringing this thread back to Buchanan's idiotic statements would be a step in the right direction.Allowing this to deteriorate into a pro or con on AA programs is sort of letting the idiot off the hook.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 8:40:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Nah... commenting on his statements would be like beating a dead dog...a waste of thought...he has been rightfully chastised but his statements should not be a big shock and surprise... After all he has been the same for years but someone must like him...he is still employed.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Jurassic Park V: Bleatings From the Tar Pit! - 7/17/2009 8:44:45 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		There is absolutely no accounting for taste Butch....nor the gullibility of the masses.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 75
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