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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 4:49:10 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
The southern states seceded, in part, due to the slavery issue.


That doesn't make it a civil war.



A civil war is a war within the country. I posted the reasons for the Civil War... 5 of them. If you didnt bother to read it, then you would have no idea what i am referring too.
Ah tazzy don't be too hard on him....even at this late date there are those who have issues with accepting the finality of Robert E. Lee's surrender.
The south shall rise again........

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 4:50:36 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

In answer to the title of the thread: an empahtic "no".

1. Who was legally responsible for slavery?
****No one still living. 
The tribes sold captured individuals from other tribes that were the result of tribal warfare.  They were transported via ship, some living through the passage, others not, and became slaves.  Many slaves were captives prior to being sold into slavery. 
No single culpability but there's no one living who is legally responsible nor is there anyone living in America who was a slave of the ear of which you speak. 

2. Who should be paid? 
****No one.

3. What about the Civil War? Slavery did not end by evaporation. It took a catastrophic civil war
****You're wrong.  The Civil War was fought over secession and states rights, not slavery.  Lincoln wanted to send the Africans back to Africa; he was no great savior to the black people; it was politics. 

EVERY culture has had slavery and NO group of people has been immune; it's just a matter of how recently in history it's happened.  Boo-hooing over wrongs done the ancestors of a people is disempowering and insulting and, imo, downright stupid. 
Davan



Well thank you for your emphatic opinion.

Unfortunately, if you had paid more attention to the post and the link you would have discovered that those were not my words but the words of the author.

You might also have discovered that the the three points you responded to were addressed in a similar fashion by the author.

But hey, very nice rant anyway.    



Aren't you a snarky little something.  Heaven forbid someone reads a thread and answers the questions posted in the OP.  OMG, yes, that is just so worthy of the stupid little diatribe you let loose.  Your point in creating the thread anyway?! 
  Davan


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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 5:02:32 PM   
tazzygirl


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Until its admitted that slavery was a big part of the cause of the civil war... not only in the fact that the southern states needed them to raise and harvest their main crop, cotton, but also because the southern states didnt like being told that other states would not be allowed to own them, or, if they could not have a majority vote, then the state would not be allowed. The south decided the "federal" government was making too many decisions for them, so they walked out, more than once, seceded and because their own government.

But, of course, thats not a civil war.

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 5:11:01 PM   
openmindedslave


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Since slavery has been in existence in other countries and according to the United Nations, the practice of enslaving people is still practiced today, my question is has any country ever paid reparations  for acts of slavery in their countries past? I really don't know if the idea of reparations is more of United States comcept or is this a situation  that is being brought to the attention of other goverments .

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:07:50 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael 

Aren't you a snarky little something.  Heaven forbid someone reads a thread and answers the questions posted in the OP.  OMG, yes, that is just so worthy of the stupid little diatribe you let loose.  Your point in creating the thread anyway?! 


The point of the thread was just to piss you off.

Because I really wanted to hear a rant from someone telling me I was wrong and stupid in what I said when I actually didn't say it.   

The author of the article I linked did, and I never said I endorsed his viewpoints.

You also seem to be at somewhat of a loss in argumentative skills because saying something is "stupid", the second time you've done that incidentally, doesn't do much to present your viewpoints in a flattering light.

And while I appreciate comments on the post I would hope that the person commenting would actually read the linked article and subsequent posts so they understand what they are commenting on.

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:10:40 PM   
PanthersMom


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Let me preface this by saying I'm not going to read all 100 and some entries into this thread prior to my post.  I will also say that I am adoptive mother to three African American children.  Why?  Because they needed homes.  None of their relatives nor any member of the African American community would take them in and raise them.  We were the last hope for them to have a family.  Each one came from different families at different times, so this was not a mass adoption, an entire instant family dumped on people who were not ready for it.  These babies needed families willing to accept their drug exposure and whatever resulted from that exposure in terms of mental and physical disabilities.  Their birth families refused, their church families refused despite a local program instituted to promote such adoptions, and the general public refused.  We accepted them, sight unseen, no guarantees, no conditions.  And yes, there have been major difficulties, but they are my sons, born in my heart, not of my body, and just as much mine as their oldest brother, my biological son.  So no, I am definitely not racist.

1. Who was legally responsible for slavery?  Those who purchased the human beings offered for sale, whether they were fresh from the slave ships or those who were born here into slavery, the persons responsible are long dead, as are those who were directly affected or wronged by those actions.  Proving any link to the actual persons affected would be impossible due to the dynamics of the slave families, the lack of accurate records proving lineage and the conditions of slavery itself.  This was a subject I've studied in college just this past semester.  Female slaves were bred with specifically chosen males in many cases due to their physical attributres of strength and endurance, often many men, until she became pregnant.  Due to the conditions in the lives of many slaves, improper medical treatment, improper nutrition, a female might not be able to discern pregnancy for many months, therefore clouding the issue of who fathered the child in question.  All children were property of the master, many without birth records and raised in a collective situation by elderly slaves while parents were away working.  Lineage was matriarchial, and the liberal sexual practices often made paternity difficult to establish.  Males raised children of their mates as theirs, but slavery often broke up families with parents or children being sold.  Families were more often created by association rather than blood and legal ties as there were very few legally binding slave marriages, more often they were bonds of love rather than actual unions recognized by law.  Slave marriages could be created or broken by the whims of the master.

............2. Who should be paid? No one.  Those who should be paid damages are long dead, the proof of bloodlines would be impossible.  The efforts should be turned towards making this a nation of Americans, not African Americans, Puerto Rican Americans, Chinese Americans and so on.  Slavery has existed since one human discovered it could make its life easier by bullying another to do its bidding.  It goes back eons, should we find the decendants of the first slave and require the world to make monetary reparations?  This nation has become a fragmented and isolationist society with these ethnic divisions and even more fragmented into the "me" society.  There is no sense of community as people, as a nation working together to save itself from extinction.  Those who died to create this nation, to free it from tyrrany and keep us free are rolling in their graves with the bickering and violence we are inflicting on each other.   This is not what they died for, and I for one am ashamed of the way Americans as a whole are behaving towards each other.  Let's not even discuss how we behave towards the rest of the world, that's a whole other debate.  As it is we don't have a damn dime to our collective names we don't already owe to the Chinese and others around the world.  And we're just supposed to shit this money out and hand it to anyone with dark skin?  No thanks, I already owe my firstborn great great grandchild to Hu Flung Poo in some province in northern China!  Stop the madness and grow some freaking common sense, people!  Send the illegals home via airdrop if necessary, button up the border, stop letting businesses leave the country and let's get ourselves out of the pit we've dug ourselves into.

...........3. What about the Civil War? What about it?  Contrary to popular belief, the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about states' rights; the rights of each state to set its own policy without interference from the federal government.  The war was fought because some states didn't want to stay a part of the union and wanted to set their own rules, while the rest of the country didn't want another nation, or group of nations in their midst.  It wasn't only slavery at issue.  It's just the issue most people remember.  Maybe we should spend more time educating ourselves and less time playing video games and watching reality show crap on tv.  Pick up a history book on your next trip to the crapper and do something constructive with your time.  Maybe you should learn some shit while you're at it too.

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:19:41 PM   
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quote:

Those who should be paid damages are long dead


Bingo, Panthers Mom.
 
Find me someone here that was a slave, and yeah, I'll say "pay them". Otherwise...

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:19:45 PM   
slvemike4u


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PanthersMom,you really should have stopped at point 2.The Civil War was about states rights ....is as correct a statement as .....The invasion of Iraq is over WMD....
See just because you read it somewhere,or because your grand pa told you so doesn't make it right.
The only states rights the secessionist states were concerned about ,was the right to maintain and spread slavery.Minus the spread of slavery southern leaders were faced with one big ass problem.....a growing slave population,a shrinking market and the immutable law of supply and demand.
Clinging to a romanticised vision of the old south....and why it went to war may make for some fine novels...and interesting family histories....unfortunately it is lousy history.Before advising others to pick up a history book perhaps you need do some reading yourself!

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:20:52 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael 

Aren't you a snarky little something.  Heaven forbid someone reads a thread and answers the questions posted in the OP.  OMG, yes, that is just so worthy of the stupid little diatribe you let loose.  Your point in creating the thread anyway?! 


The point of the thread was just to piss you off.

Because I really wanted to hear a rant from someone telling me I was wrong and stupid in what I said when I actually didn't say it.   

The author of the article I linked did, and I never said I endorsed his viewpoints.

You also seem to be at somewhat of a loss in argumentative skills because saying something is "stupid", the second time you've done that incidentally, doesn't do much to present your viewpoints in a flattering light.

And while I appreciate comments on the post I would hope that the person commenting would actually read the linked article and subsequent posts so they understand what they are commenting on.



Stupid is stupid.  Simple as that. 
Erroneous is your assumption that I attributed the questions to anyone in particular as I did not. 
It's interesting that you've fixated on my responses to the questions when many others have also answered them. 
If you pose a question, chances are that people are going to answer it, strange thing I know but one would think that after over 3,500 posts, you might have gotten the hang of it.  
  Davan

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:34:07 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

It wasn't only slavery at issue. It's just the issue most people remember


I gave 5 reasons for the war... slavery, in part, was one. More accurately....

quote:

The Civil War lasted from 1861 to 1865 and led to over 618,000 casualties. Its causes can be traced back to tensions that formed early in the nation's history. Following are the top five causes that led to the "War Between the States."
1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.

With Eli Whitney’s invention of the cotton gin in 1793, cotton became very profitable. This machine was able to reduce the time it took to separate seeds from the cotton. However, at the same time the increase in the number of plantations willing to move from other crops to cotton meant the greater need for a large amount of cheap labor, i.e. slaves. Thus, the southern economy became a one crop economy, depending on cotton and therefore on slavery. On the other hand, the northern economy was based more on industry than agriculture. In fact, the northern industries were purchasing the raw cotton and turning it into finished goods. This disparity between the two set up a major difference in economic attitudes. The South was based on the plantation system while the North was focused on city life. This change in the North meant that society evolved as people of different cultures and classes had to work together. On the other hand, the South continued to hold onto an antiquated social order.

2. States versus federal rights.

Since the time of the Revolution, two camps emerged: those arguing for greater states rights and those arguing that the federal government needed to have more control. The first organized government in the US after the American Revolution was under the Articles of Confederation. The thirteen states formed a loose confederation with a very weak federal government. However, when problems arose, the weakness of this form of government caused the leaders of the time to come together at the Constitutional Convention and create, in secret, the US Constitution. Strong proponents of states rights like Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry were not present at this meeting. Many felt that the new constitution ignored the rights of states to continue to act independently. They felt that the states should still have the right to decide if they were willing to accept certain federal acts. This resulted in the idea of nullification, whereby the states would have the right to rule federal acts unconstitutional. The federal government denied states this right. However, proponents such as John C. Calhoun fought vehemently for nullification. When nullification would not work and states felt that they were no longer respected, they moved towards secession.

3. The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.

As America began to expand, first with the lands gained from the Louisiana Purchase and later with the Mexican War, the question of whether new states admitted to the union would be slave or free. The Missouri Compromise passed in 1820 made a rule that prohibited slavery in states from the former Louisiana Purchase the latitude 36 degrees 30 minutes north except in Missouri. During the Mexican War, conflict started about what would happen with the new territories that the US expected to gain upon victory. David Wilmot proposed the Wilmot Proviso in 1846 which would ban slavery in the new lands. However, this was shot down to much debate. The Compromise of 1850 was created by Henry Clay and others to deal with the balance between slave and free states, northern and southern interests. One of the provisions was the fugitive slave act that was discussed in number one above. Another issue that further increased tensions was the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854. It created two new territories that would allow the states to use popular sovereignty to determine whether they would be free or slave. The real issue occurred in Kansas where proslavery Missourians began to pour into the state to help force it to be slave. They were called “Border Ruffians.” Problems came to a head in violence at Lawrence Kansas. The fighting that occurred caused it to be called “Bleeding Kansas.” The fight even erupted on the floor of the senate when antislavery proponent Charles Sumner was beat over the head by South Carolina’s Senator Preston Brooks.

4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.

Increasingly, the northerners became more polarized against slavery. Sympathies began to grow for abolitionists and against slavery and slaveholders. This occurred especially after some major events including: the publishing of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin, the Dred Scott Case, John Brown’s Raid, and the passage of the fugitive slave act that held individuals responsible for harboring fugitive slaves even if they were located in non-slave states.

5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.

Even though things were already coming to a head, when Lincoln was elected in 1860, South Carolina issued its “Declaration of the Causes of Secession.” They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests. Before Lincoln was even president, seven states had seceded from the Union: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas.



quote:

Lincoln and Secession

Very little held the United States together in 1860: the political parties had dissolved into sectional parties, and even churches had split over the slavery issue. People in the North simply couldn’t understand the South’s insistence on expanding the “slavocracy” westward, while southerners thought that northerners wanted to completely destroy their way of life. As a result, Americans on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line wondered and worried about who would become the next president in 1860.

Election of 1860

Four candidates contended for the presidency in the election of 1860:

•Abraham Lincoln ran on the Republican ticket in favor of higher protective tariffs and more internal improvements, with promises to maintain the Union at all costs.
•Stephen A. Douglas ran for the northern Democratic Party, also on a pro-Union platform.
•John C. Breckinridge ran as a southern Democrat in strong support of slavery.
•John Bell ran with a breakaway group of compromising Republicans on the Constitutional Union Party ticket.
Because none of the slave states even put Lincoln’s name on the ballot, the election eventually became two sectional elections, with Lincoln versus Douglas in the North and Breckinridge and Bell in the South. In the end, Lincoln won the presidency with approximately 39 percent of the popular vote, all eighteen free states, and a clear majority of 180 votes in the Electoral College.

Secession

Immediately after the election, South Carolina’s legislature convened a special convention and voted unanimously to secede from the Union. South Carolina then issued “A Declaration of the Causes of Secession,” which reviewed the threats against slavery and asserted that a sectional party had elected a president hostile to slavery. By February 1861, six other slave states had followed suit, including Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas.

The Crittenden Compromise

Hoping to prevent war, Senator John Crittenden from Kentucky proposed another compromise. He suggested adding an amendment to the Constitution to protect slavery in all territories South of 36˚ 30'. Popular sovereignty would determine whether the southwestern territories would enter the Union as free or slave states. Conversely, all territories north of 36˚ 30' would be free. Many southerners contemplated this Crittenden Compromise, but Lincoln rejected it out of the belief that the people had elected him to prevent the westward expansion of slavery.

Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address

In his First Inaugural Address, Lincoln reaffirmed the North’s friendship with the South, stressed national unity, and asked southerners to abandon secession. Moreover, he declared secession illegal and vowed to maintain the Union at all costs.

Fort Sumter

After declaring their independence, South Carolina authorities demanded the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Fort Sumter, a small island in Charleston Harbor. When Lincoln didn’t comply, South Carolina militiamen shelled the fort on April 12, 1861, until the garrison’s commander surrendered. Not a single soldier died during the fight, leading many southerners to conclude that northerners lacked the will to fight. The fall of Fort Sumter also convinced Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia to secede. The war had begun.


http://www.sparknotes.com/101/us_history_one/the_civil_war/lincoln_and_secession.html

This site, sparknotes....

quote:

About Sparknotes
SparkNotes books and SparkNotes.com exist to help students learn and practice basic skills, write a paper, study for a test and achieve their academic goals. We believe that doing well in school and learning is its own reward, and that learning is more than just getting a diploma from a brand name college.

Created by Harvard students for students everywhere and geared to what today's students need to know, SparkNotes study guides are the perfect aid for studying and writing papers. Each guide contains thorough summaries and insightful critical analysis of a nearly endless range of subjects including English literature, Shakespeare, History and Math and Science. We offer hundreds of study guides for free to read on the web, and many SparkNotes and SparkCharts as downloadable, printable PDFs.


Many people need to brush up on their history.

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:36:31 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

Maybe we should spend more time educating ourselves and less time playing video games and watching reality show crap on tv.  Pick up a history book on your next trip to the crapper and do something constructive with your time.  Maybe you should learn some shit while you're at it too.



You mean like learning the difference between someone quoting a linked article and posting their own words?

I'm going to try to make this clear one more time.  Especially for those of you who normally post on forums that rarely have any linked sources.

If you click on the title of the original post it will link you to the full article in which portions were quoted in the post.

THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS FOLKS, THEY ARE THE WORDS OF THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE.

As far as doing something constructive, I can't think of anything more constructive than actually reading a thread, as you said you were too busy to do, before making comments telling other people to "learn some shit".

Which was a very well spoken, articulate comment.   Your college studies are paying off already.







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/19/2009 7:08:50 PM >

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:52:03 PM   
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Oh boy- 6 pages and still going strong.  I'm late to the party but no, I don't think we should pay any reparations.  It's silly. Throughout history people have conquered, exploited and abused one another to get ahead. That's just the way it is.  At one point in time our ancestors have been on the losing end.  Let's see, at one time, England was conquered by Rome, so should the decendants of Rome pay reparations to the British? Or is there a statute of limitations? Say....... 2,000 years???

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 6:56:09 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Stupid is stupid.  Simple as that. 
Erroneous is your assumption that I attributed the questions to anyone in particular as I did not. 
It's interesting that you've fixated on my responses to the questions when many others have also answered them. 
If you pose a question, chances are that people are going to answer it, strange thing I know but one would think that after over 3,500 posts, you might have gotten the hang of it.  



So, I guess when you said "you're wrong" you actually knew it was not me making the comment and you were just making the remark to the article's author in absentia.

But who knows, maybe he is a CM member too and you'll get a direct response from him.

As for me, they were not individual questions, but part of an entire article I posted for comment.  An article that had to be read completely to see the context, which most everyone else seemed to understand.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/19/2009 6:57:00 PM >

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 7:20:30 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Oh boy- 6 pages and still going strong.  I'm late to the party but no, I don't think we should pay any reparations.  It's silly. Throughout history people have conquered, exploited and abused one another to get ahead. That's just the way it is.  At one point in time our ancestors have been on the losing end.  Let's see, at one time, England was conquered by Rome, so should the decendants of Rome pay reparations to the British? Or is there a statute of limitations? Say....... 2,000 years???



No, you're not late, but you have to settle for warm beer and cold pizza.

Ok, if reparations are silly, then how do you feel about affirmative action?

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 7:32:20 PM   
YoungLust


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Oh boy- 6 pages and still going strong.  I'm late to the party but no, I don't think we should pay any reparations.  It's silly. Throughout history people have conquered, exploited and abused one another to get ahead. That's just the way it is.  At one point in time our ancestors have been on the losing end.  Let's see, at one time, England was conquered by Rome, so should the decendants of Rome pay reparations to the British? Or is there a statute of limitations? Say....... 2,000 years???



No, you're not late, but you have to settle for warm beer and cold pizza.

Ok, if reparations are silly, then how do you feel about affirmative action?

I'll field this one and say that they're an antiquated concept and are not needed.

At least the affirmative action concept has much more merit than reparations though.

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 8:20:33 PM   
Brain


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I don’t think this question can be answered easily. In a perfect world the answer is yes. Doing some quick research on this I just don’t see any consensus and I think if the question was asked in a national referendum people would vote no. I think I read the cost would be $22 trillion. So even if people decided to do it they could not afford it. It’s cost prohibitive.


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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 8:23:06 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
I don’t think this question can be answered easily. In a perfect world the answer is yes. Doing some quick research on this I just don’t see any consensus and I think if the question was asked in a national referendum people would vote no. I think I read the cost would be $22 trillion. So even if people decided to do it they could not afford it. It’s cost prohibitive.


Actually, in a 'perfect' world, this would all have been done while the payers and the payees were still alive and would have been over and done with long before now.

As it was not, that time has passed. For I know *I* am not paying anyone a dime. My family didn't come over here until just before World War II. Thus, to my knowledge, no one in my family owned, sold, or in any way had anything to do with the slave trade.


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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/19/2009 8:27:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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My father was native american... my mothers family came through ellis island...lol... im the before and after...

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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/20/2009 3:05:56 AM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

The argument would be that slave labor directly and indirectly built up the infrastructure and economy of the USA. The value of that uncompensated labor would be a reasonable starting point in determining the amount of reperations owed.

Then get out your checkbook, DK,'cause there's a long line of folks looking to get paid.


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RE: Should blacks get reparations? - 7/20/2009 6:54:14 AM   
LaTigresse


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Not to mention all the people that came here in indentured servitude and were grossly taken advantage of. Or the children that were forced to work like slaves in factories. Or the miners in Kentucky that were so badly treated by their employers they had a small war.

And what about the non consensual slavery of today? It happens, right here in this country. Should we pay them also when law enforcement finds them?

Point is, as long as there have been humans on this planet there have been people used and abused because of greed. Either by their governments or while their governments looked the other way.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/20/2009 6:56:18 AM >


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