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Barker said the foundation had been waiting for the right case to challenge "In God We Trust ." He said government actions could be challenged on state-church grounds if they had specific religious agendas. In this case, he said, backers of Lungren's plan have provided "the smoking guns" by giving specific, overt religious reasons for doing the engraving.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Seperation of church and state was mentioned in a letter from Jefferson, not in the 1st Amendment.

"It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine on a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history.... The establishment clause [of the First Amendment] has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly forty years.... There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state].... The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or the intent of the Framers."
(Associate Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist, Wallace v. Jafree, 1985.)

Rehnquist's opinion you quote from is a dissent. IOW he lost and his opinion in this matter is not precedent.

This like much of what you have quoted in this thread has the unmistable stench of David Barton a liar who has been peddling his completely made up version of US history for decades.

If you had bothered to take the time to read what i have posted, you will notice i have posted on BOTH sides of the issue. Again, I have stated it matters little to me either way. Slide God, Zeus, Ra, Isis, whatever name you want, wont change the fact that i need to do business, and i may have to do it in that building. The name that goes up on a building wont change my beliefs one bit.

I do not know who Barton is. I have merely researched as topics came up. Perhaps if your smelling a stench, you need to investigate where its coming from.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The OP initiated this thread after hearing about the words on the outside of the Visitors Center. yet, no one mentioned anything about the same words being inscribed on the inside of the building. makes me wonder are we being herded to see only what some want us to see and not the whole picture.

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John Adams' famous letter of July 3, 1776, in which he wrote to his wife Abigail what his thoughts were about celebrating the Fourth of July is found on various web sites but is usually incorrectly quoted. Following is the exact text from his letter with his original spellings:

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The Second Day of July 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more. You will think me transported with Enthusiasm but I am not. I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not. (The Book of Abigail and John: Selected Letters of the Adams Family, 1762-1784, Harvard University Press, 1975, 142).

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The OP initiated this thread after hearing about the words on the outside of the Visitors Center. yet, no one mentioned anything about the same words being inscribed on the inside of the building. makes me wonder are we being herded to see only what some want us to see and not the whole picture.

You've made reference to this in an earlier post and I'm not sure what you are talking about.

There was no mention in the link of inside or outside, only prominent places throughout, and how would that make a difference?

From the article:

If Rep. Dan Lungren gets his way, Congress will spend nearly $100,000 to engrave the words "In God We Trust " and the Pledge of Allegiance in prominent spots at the Capitol Visitor Center.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

LOL.. again your labeling me with a brush that i know nothing about. are any of the quotes i supplied made up?

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Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

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Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

your right, i misread that somehow. it is supposed to be in numerous places. along with bibles, pictures of clergy, Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance, a copy of the Pledge of Allegiance and the prayer said at the opening of the current Congress, ect.

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You've already seen that the Adams July 2nd quote is used deceptively.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Then why not fight it all, instead of just some? some atheists (and i did NOT say all) believe any reference to god should be removed completely.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Then why not fight it all, instead of just some? some atheists (and i did NOT say all) believe any reference to god should be removed completely.

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You've already seen that the Adams July 2nd quote is used deceptively.

how was it deceptive? i would think the addition that they left off is the most powerful piece.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

When will the star spangle banner be attacked?

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I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

When will the star spangle banner be attacked?

There is no reason to attack the star-spangled banner, at least for this discussion.

Oh say can you see
By the dawns early light
what so proudly we hail
at the twilight's last gleaming
whose broad stripes and bright stars
through the perilous fight
o'er the ramparts we watched
were so gallantly streaming
and the rockets red glare
the bombs bursting in air
gave proof through the night
that our flag was still there
oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave
o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Hmmm... I don't see any religious reference in there at all... do you?

...Nothing unconstitutional -- nothing that does not abide by the tenets set down in our founding documents...

I find that it minimizes one's effectiveness in debate when one drifts into emotion-laden arguments with only the most tenuous connections to the debate at hand. *smiles*

DC

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not

I dont view it as a religious holiday. Nor do i believe others are trying to imply it should be. Its a national holiday, and should be celebrated, because we declared our freedom. I see him talking about the days to come, hard work, lost lives, the gaining of freedom they so desired... the gains and costs... How the end will be worth it all, and that while we shall personally rue thes days, he is leaving his trust in god that we will not, that the ending will be worth all the sacrifice.

I believe that many of these quotes, taken far out of context, twisted by both sides to try and prove what the founding fathers may have meant, or not meant, is a sad ploy. which is why i posted what i did with all those quotes, in response to the quotes posted about how they did not want religion in government. that is not my belief. they didnt want government in religion. religion was, and will always be, in government, just not in the paranoid way some groups believe.

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Almighty God hath created the mind free...All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens...are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion...No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.

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God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than these people are to be free. Establish the law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state to effect and on a general plan.