RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center

RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:08:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly My suggestion to this mess: ask for a private company to do the engraving at no charge, then tell the atheists not to look. And when someone gets a sign 'donated by a private company' that says "In Allah we trust." Then what? And in all honesty, why not? Allah is just a different name for God. Perhaps the solution is to just leave God out of it, like they do in civilised countries [8D] . Perhaps just say...Creator...as is in the Declaration of Independence. Butch

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:08:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Do you have anything - other than purely anecdotal stories, and your personal "belief" - to back up your opinion? Considering how I have witnessed you respond (or rather ignore) cold, hard facts when they are placed right in front of you, I choose not to play your little 'game.' It makes no difference if I provide a dissertation on the subject or simply base my statement from experience. It is in conflict with your stance so you will choose to overlook it anyway. So enjoy. hmmm. What "facts" have you presented? I think this is just your way to attempt to deflect the fact that you have no good response. So you revert to an ad hominem attack. shrugs Pretty much what I expected. Firm

sirsholly -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:10:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly Loki...allow me to tell you our "counsel" does not make or pass laws, legalize or make anything illegal. No, but if you think your counsel is the only place you'll find a "bubba" in a small town, you're very mistaken. you say that like it is a bad thing. The "Bubba's" and their families are the reason we live here and are raising our family here. Hometown values, Loki. A handshake here is a legal document. If a car breaks down, there will be another car pulling up soon to offer help to a stranger.

sirsholly -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:11:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Citizens of this country. What is the official language of this country? It is English. What is "God" in English, Loki? God. Actually the US has no official language. i thought of that right after i hit "send"

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:13:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl lol im serious.. is this just a US issue or do they have issues with every religion everywhere Do you really want an answer to that question [&:] ? i dont ask questions, especially on these boards, without wanting an answer

sirsholly -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:13:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly What is the official language of this country? It is English. What is "God" in English, Loki? God. You're mistaken, Holly. There is no official language in the United States. i really did know that, Kittin. Fingers and brain disengaged [8\|]

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:15:47 AM)
Is this a 'Free Speech' issue, or a "Declaration of a State Religion" issue? For me, I see it as a Declaration of State Religion issue, as it is being put on a government building, where visitors and guests will see it. If it is your store or house or private building, put whatever you want on there. -THAT- is a Free Speech issue. If it is on a building that is meant to represent the American people, as a whole, and our government and laws, by presentation and intent, then it -cannot- go on there, because it leaves the impression that the United States, as a whole, believes in God -- which it does NOT. NOR is the United States a "Christian" nation -- in fact, a majority of our "Founding Fathers" were adamantly not Christian and felt strongly enough that religion should have no place in the function of government that they made it a part of the core documents of our nation. Why can people just NOT get that??? DC

kittinSol -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:17:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Is this a 'Free Speech' issue, or a "Declaration of a State Religion" issue? For me, I see it as a Declaration of State Religion issue, as it is being put on a government building, where visitors and guests will see it. If it is your store or house or private building, put whatever you want on there. -THAT- is a Free Speech issue. If it is on a building that is meant to represent the American people, as a whole, and our government and laws, by presentation and intent, then it -cannot- go on there, because it leaves the impression that the United States, as a whole, believes in God -- which it does NOT. NOR is the United States a "Christian" nation -- in fact, a majority of our "Founding Fathers" were adamantly not Christian and felt strongly enough that religion should have no place in the function of government that they made it a part of the core documents of our nation. Why can people just NOT get that??? DC This sums it up perfectly - great post.

tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:18:55 AM)
Maybe i got my history wrong.. wasnt seperation of church and state to keep the state from dictating what religion we were to follow? The church of england comes to mind.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:20:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY hmmm. What "facts" have you presented? And you always do what I expect and what I have witnessed. I wasn't referring to this thread, but I know you were taking it that way. You can check your own post history...nothing stopping you. In that history you will see thread after thread where you demanded someone show you facts and when they did, you completely ignored them. As I said, I don't play that game.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:22:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly you say that like it is a bad thing. The "Bubba's" and their families are the reason we live here and are raising our family here. Hometown values, Loki. A handshake here is a legal document. If a car breaks down, there will be another car pulling up soon to offer help to a stranger. Oh no. It's a GREAT thing. But again that's only if you're 'in with the good ol' boys." If you're....a little different.....or someone takes a disliking to you and starts spreadin' gossip down at the waterin' hole...you're screwed. Damn...how many people have been complaining on the boards and in chat about not being able to exercise their kink-interests because of "small town folk's wandering eyes and loose lips?"

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:23:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Is this a 'Free Speech' issue, or a "Declaration of a State Religion" issue? For me, I see it as a Declaration of State Religion issue, as it is being put on a government building, where visitors and guests will see it. If it is your store or house or private building, put whatever you want on there. -THAT- is a Free Speech issue. If it is on a building that is meant to represent the American people, as a whole, and our government and laws, by presentation and intent, then it -cannot- go on there, because it leaves the impression that the United States, as a whole, believes in God -- which it does NOT. NOR is the United States a "Christian" nation -- in fact, a majority of our "Founding Fathers" were adamantly not Christian and felt strongly enough that religion should have no place in the function of government that they made it a part of the core documents of our nation. Why can people just NOT get that??? DC The Supreme Court has ruled in the past on the historical importance of religious symbols and words in US history, and allows such things on buildings and in situations in which there is a historical context. The argument being made in the OP's article is that this is one of those occasions. This removes it from a separation issue. However, because atheists wish to encourage their own beliefs, they are attacking the historical use. In effect, by not allowing such a usage, the US would be supporting one belief system over others. Which does make it a separation issue if their wishes are granted, because atheists are attempting to use the power of the government to enforce their particular world view and belief system on others who do not wish to share it. Yes, atheism is a belief system, and I (and others) classify it as a religion. Firm

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:25:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Yes, atheism is a belief system, and I (and others) classify it as a religion. Actually, atheism is a lack of a belief, not a belief. What you classify it as is irrelevant.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:25:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY hmmm. What "facts" have you presented? As I said, I don't play that game. Got it. Firm

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:27:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY hmmm. What "facts" have you presented? As I said, I don't play that game. Got it. Firm You can change the quotes around any way you like. All it does is make my point for me. Thanks.

Arpig -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:27:12 AM)
Firm, I don't dispute that atheism is a belief system, but what I fail to see is how it is being officially supported by there being no reference whatsoever. If they wanted a sign stating "There is no God to trust" or some such, then yes I would agree with you, but they want there to be no sign at all, nothing supporting the views of either side. I think you are stretching things pretty far arguing that the lack of the motto is tantamount to the government supporting atheism.

kdsub -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:27:13 AM)
I do understand and agree that religion doctrine should not have a place in our laws…will they do…but we all agree…laws should not specify a particular religions doctrine. This does not however mean that the traditions of our country should be ignored on technicalities if the tradition carries no legal weight…in my opinion... and reflects the desires of the citizenry. For instance I see nothing wrong with a City sponsoring a religious display…as long as it reflects its cities wants. The display could be one or multiple religions. I see nothing wrong “In God We Trust” on a public building.. hell the God could be “God of science”…” God of Atheists” .. if you are Yogi Berra….God of Law… any thing you would like to think it. Remember God is not mentioned in the US Construction but is in all but one State Constitution. Butch

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:29:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Firm, I don't dispute that atheism is a belief system, but what I fail to see is how it is being officially supported by there being no reference whatsoever. If they wanted a sign stating "There is no God to trust" or some such, then yes I would agree with you, but they want there to be no sign at all, nothing supporting the views of either side. I think you are stretching things pretty far arguing that the lack of the motto is tantamount to the government supporting atheism. Careful, now he's going to ask your for 'facts' that he can ignore.

Arpig -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:29:49 AM)
quote: Actually, atheism is a lack of a belief, not a belief. What you classify it as is irrelevant. Or...atheism is the belief that there is no God. See its all in how you approach it.

Loki45 -> RE: Atheists sue to keep 'In God We Trust' off Capitol Visitor Center (7/20/2009 10:36:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Actually, atheism is a lack of a belief, not a belief. What you classify it as is irrelevant. Or...atheism is the belief that there is no God. See its all in how you approach it. But that's splitting hairs. As you said, they aren't trying to put up a sign that reads "There is no God to trust." They simply want the absence of a reference to any one God.

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