Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (Full Version)

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bamabbwsub -> Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/19/2009 11:29:27 PM)

My mother, who is 73, came to visit me this weekend from out of state. She is a very heavy smoker and is on quite a few medications. Although she won't tell us (my sister and me) all of the medications she is on, I do know that she is on low-dose aspirin, some vitamins, and others for an enlarged heart, caused primarily from her smoking, which she refuses to quit. Overall, she isn't in very good health.

While she was here, she was trying to tell me a story, and she started talking jibberish, and the left side of her mouth drew up. I recognized that she might be having a mini-stroke, but it passed pretty quickly. She refused to go to the hospital. In hindsight, I should have just taken her without her consent, but my mother is a very independent, stubborn woman and I typically try to respect her wishes. I won't make that mistake again, if I ever feel that her health is in jeopardy.

Her speech issues cleared up after about an hour, and she seemed fine. She had no other apparent stroke symptoms. My online research indicates that mini-strokes are merely a warning sign of a major stroke later on. I asked her to think about what she wanted to do if she ever became incapacitated. Her answer was very vague, and I knew she was avoiding giving me an answer, as she prefers to ignore anything unpleasant and not address serious issues. She currently lives alone and is very reluctant to move in with either my sister or me, or to an assisted-living location. I worry about her living alone and want to know her wishes before she becomes unable to express them later on if she ever becomes incapacitated and unable to speak.

I'm going to call her primary physician tomorrow and tell him what happened this weekend, since I know that she won't tell him. I'm hoping that he will be able to talk to her about the seriousness of what happened, and put her on medicine to help delay or even prevent a more serious stroke later on.

My question is, have any of you ever had to deal with an aging, ill, but very stubborn parent or grandparent? How do you find out their medical history and medicines unless they give consent? I'm afraid that if she does have a stroke, heart attack, or other medical issue, and if I have to take her to the hospital, I won't be able to give them vital information about her health. Most importantly, how do you convince them that it may be time for them to move in with a family member? I'm not trying to take over her life or deny her her independence, but I believe in being prepared for all eventualities, and after what happened this weekend, I'm afraid that those types of decisions will need to be made sooner rather than later.

Any advice is appreciated.




mefisto69 -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 3:25:52 AM)

You'll have to be sneaky and check out her meds while she sleeps. Calling her Doc is a good idea but - he may listen and not tell you anything of substance unless you are his patient as well. Try to find other people she respects to converse with her about health issues and long term care..... a Pastor? other relatives, her friends?



Irishknight -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 3:51:37 AM)

I deal with an ill and stubborn parent every day. My father has inoperable heart disease and refuses to even try to lose the extra 120lbs he's carrying. I originally moved out of state to try to help him up in Iowa. That didn't work as well as my mother had planned because Dad doesn't want anyone's help. I ended up stuck living in a state where I didn't want to be trying to help a man who didn't want to be helped. I ended up getting married, moving halfway across the state and finally moving back to my home state. Then we moved my parents back to live near us.

I don't try to talk Dad into losing weight or taking better care of himself anymore. It just makes him mad. I just let him know that his family loves him. I hang out with him and do the physical stuff he can't and so does his grandson. Mostly, I just let him be him and he seems much happier.

He has already outlived the doctors' estimates by ten years. I make sure that we treasure each day with him.



sirsholly -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 4:00:03 AM)

quote:

I asked her to think about what she wanted to do if she ever became incapacitated. Her answer was very vague, and I knew she was avoiding giving me an answer, as she prefers to ignore anything unpleasant and not address serious issues.
i may get flamed for this, but my dad was the most stubborn, pig headed, bull headed, obstinate...well. you get the idea.

I hit him with the guilt factor and kept it going until some pressing matters were resolved (i was raised as a Catholic...i know how to do the guilt thing). I just told him he was being terribly unfair to me by leaving these decisions to me and leaving me to dwell for the rest of my life as to if i did the right thing.

I also threatened to have him stuffed and mounted, which at least got him to tell me that he did in fact have a burial plot.



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 4:39:53 AM)

Unless your mother has put Some sort of advance directive or PoA into place, don't count on her doctor being willing to tell you diddly shit.  Sounds harsh, but unless the doc could care less about the potential for being sued over privacy violations, you have no right to the information (legally) unless your mother specifically states In Writing that you are allowed to be told.  That's HPPA for ya.
 
As for what you can do otherwise - damned little.  You can try to guilt trip her.  You can try bullying her (which works for me what my dad is being a royal pain in the ass - but hell, I hold full PoA and Trusteeship and he's been decclared incompus mentus by the courts.)  You can even try sneaking around behind her back to get the information you feel you need.  Just be prepared to hate yourself if you decide that's the only way to get things done, despite the fact that you feel it's for her own good.



thishereboi -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 4:41:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly


I also threatened to have him stuffed and mounted, which at least got him to tell me that he did in fact have a burial plot.



That would never have worked with my mom. She used to say she wanted to be stuffed. She said we could put a candy dish in one hand and an ashtray in the other and then bring her out for parties.



CatdeMedici -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 4:52:37 AM)

Although I had a similar situation ( stubborn), I was heavily involved in My Mom's care--she was a fairly healthy woman, still living on her own, active, etc etc EXCEPT for high BP and TSD, I was with her through a series of non debilitating strokes, and her high BP care, fighting doctors, arrogant healthcare workers etc. We found a good group of Dr's, good care--then she made one decision with out Me, the BP meds she had tried, 7 by that time left her lethargic, depressed, etc, so allegedly she and her Dr decided she was going to stop taking them, she told Me on August 20, on August 25 she was dead.
 
Do all you can, but be prepared that they will make their decisions and may you not have to face the 4 years of guilt I did.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 4:56:38 AM)

Hi bamabbwsub,

There are a few things you can do that are non threatening to her but still show her.  You can complete an advance directive (and your sister can too!).  You meet as a group if you can and have copies for each other.  You discuss what YOU would want to have done.  You speak, your sister speaks, and then your mother speaks.  *hopefully* .  You have a blank advance directive for your mother to complete with you.  You have a neighbor or other non-family person witness it.  If that person is a notary, all the better! 

You could watch a movie about people in the hospital.  Heck watch Patch Adams - it's a fun and pretty happy movie and also brings up these kinds of questions - the woman who won't eat, the man who is bitter and angry.  What would YOU want?  "I would hate to be in a hospital and be comatose.  I would want life support pulled on me if 3 doctors had verified that I was brain dead and there was no hope of recovery.  I do / don't want transfusions." etc. 

If you tell her what YOU want, it gives her the freedom to say what she wants.  If you and your sister discuss what concerns you would have if you had to decide FOR EACH OTHER, and then ask her opinion what SHE would do if one of you was in a coma or whatever.  You don't have to be an expert.  Just be yourselves talking about your fears and your concerns. 

In order to teach her, you may want to consider modelling responsible behavior.  Let folks know where your life insurance policies are, what funeral arrangements you want handled, where the key to your lock box is, and copies of your Durable Power of Attorney and Advance Directive.

Everyone who knows me knows I am an organ donor, knows I don't want to be kept alive on machines, and knows that I want Bohemian Rhapsody played at my funeral.  [:)]  Does everyone who know you, know these kinds of things?

Good luck and may you have peace and support at this difficult time,
sunny jo



sirsholly -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 5:00:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly


I also threatened to have him stuffed and mounted, which at least got him to tell me that he did in fact have a burial plot.



That would never have worked with my mom. She used to say she wanted to be stuffed. She said we could put a candy dish in one hand and an ashtray in the other and then bring her out for parties.
i would have really liked your mom!!



DesFIP -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 8:22:50 AM)

We checked the meds while he was asleep or in the other room. What you do need is to say just in case she ever has to go to the hospital, you need power of attorney to pay her bills etc. Get a durable power of attorney and a medical directive filled out. I'm sure she doesn't want to be kept alive on a respirator for years, scare her with that thought and she'll sign.

Beyond that you can't force anyone to stop smoking, see a doctor etc. But once you have the poa and the medical authority then you can intervene once something does happen. In fact, the easiest way to make changes is if she is in the hospital as they won't release her if the home situation is inappropriate. With a poa, you can then put her when needed into assisted living or hire a home health aide.

What you need to do now is find a place you would like her to be in. My sister's seen one for our father, I'm going to visit it next week.

What comes first is a durable power of attorney and the medical directives. They are essential.



sirsholly -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 8:50:28 AM)

quote:

What you do need is to say just in case she ever has to go to the hospital, you need power of attorney to pay her bills etc. Get a durable power of attorney and a medical directive filled out. I'm sure she doesn't want to be kept alive on a respirator for years, scare her with that thought and she'll sign.
I totally agree. And advanced directive is imperative. I am pretty sure you can print one off of the computer, but if you do, have an impartial witness such as a neighbor. and something i did (you guys are going to think i was the meanest daughter in the world) I suggested to my dad that if he did not give me POA and was hospitalized, his bills would not be paid and he would not have an apartment to come home to.



DesFIP -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 9:13:06 AM)

Exactly, holly. Just told him we wouldn't be allowed to pay those bills and we needed to make sure of things to protect him.



sirsholly -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 9:28:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Exactly, holly. Just told him we wouldn't be allowed to pay those bills and we needed to make sure of things to protect him.
one of the problems though is sometimes the elderly get very paranoid about finances, even to the point of hurting those they trust. I suppose it is understandable, as many feel they are losing control over so much of their lives. They want to maintain control and it is so hard for us to just stand back and let them do it. We want to help, but sometimes the help hurts them in other ways.

I made a point of telling my dad over and over in front of an attorney that the POA would not (and actually legally cannot, in some ways) be used unless he was physically unable to do so himself. When the Parkinson disease made it impossible for him to write, i hauled him to the bank for him to sign a new signature card. It was basically a scribble, but it was HIS scribble.



purepleasure -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 9:40:24 AM)

Let your mother's primary care physician know what happened.  As mentioned before, HIPPA regulations do not allow him to share her medical information with you, unless permission has been granted.

Depending on the social services available in her area of residence, you may be able to get some type of referral.  In my area it's called Area Agency on Aging.  Your mother may qualify for in-home assistance for housekeeping or basic personal care.

As far as her final wishes go, be blunt.  Tell her that your plan for her is burial/cremation/grave in the backyard next to the dog, with a memorial service consisting of a concert by the local high school band.  Then ask her if she wants something else.  It's a way to get an idea of what she'd like for her final arrangements.



sirsholly -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 9:42:46 AM)

quote:

As far as her final wishes go, be blunt. Tell her that your plan for her is burial/cremation/grave in the backyard next to the dog, with a memorial service consisting of a concert by the local high school band.


[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



Mercnbeth -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 9:48:49 AM)

quote:

Most importantly, how do you convince them that it may be time for them to move in with a family member?


this slave would suggest sharing your concerns in a non-threatening, non-guilt trip way if you really aren't trying to call the shots with how she will finish living her life and respect her decisions.  perhaps suggest a Life Alert system in case she falls or needs other assistance while living alone.



purepleasure -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 9:51:48 AM)

holly, I'm not joking, even though it sounds wise-assed.   It's how I got my mother to tell me what she wanted for her burial.  She was diagnosed with Stage 4 uterine cancer in July 2007 and was in denial about her mortality.  She passed in November 2007.  I was able to give her the kind of send off she desired.



sirsholly -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 11:03:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: purepleasure

holly, I'm not joking, even though it sounds wise-assed.   It's how I got my mother to tell me what she wanted for her burial.  She was diagnosed with Stage 4 uterine cancer in July 2007 and was in denial about her mortality.  She passed in November 2007.  I was able to give her the kind of send off she desired.
good for you, Peaches. My mom opened up to me at the end and told me she wanted to go with dignity. For her, that was a closed casket and only one day of viewing.

She had cancer as well but never lost her sense of humor. One of the last things she ever said to me "I don't mind dying, but the shit leading up to it is really pissing me off".



Lashra -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 11:34:53 AM)

I am going through something similiar right now. I have a father who is 78 and bedridden from a stroke, with my 77 year old mother taking care of him. Mom is showing signs of the beginnings of dementia. She is in total denial. She thinks my father will jump up out of bed one day and go back to work (he never will), she thinks they will sell their house and move to North Carolina so that they can live like a King and Queen on all the money they will have. I have tried to talk to her about selling the house and moving into an assisted living or adult condo, she refuses because she really believes that dad will recover and go back to working full time.

She can't get used to living on just social security, all their savings is gone, spent on illnesses and medications. The house is all that they have and its falling down around them because she refuses to allow me to take things over because as she says "she is not that old". There is nothing that I can do until her dementia gets a bit worse then I will have to take legal action, she would never willingly give me power of attorney.

It is tough and I know for a fact that doctors are bound privacy issues, they cannot tell you a thing without your mothers consent. UNLESS you have power of attorney for her, then they can tell you what meds she is on.

But go ahead and call her doctor anyway and just let her/him know what occured so that s/he can be aware of it.

Good luck,
~Lashra



GoddessOrchid -> RE: Advice Needed for When Your Aging Parent(s) Are Stubborn, Ill, and Need Help (7/20/2009 11:39:42 AM)

I don't know if this has already been said but does your mother have a someone who is her power of attorney (POA)? If so you should be speaking with them because the POA is usually the one who knows all the medical issues and the desires of your mother. If she does not have a POA- you should elect to be her POA. She will need one if she is ill and cannot speak because if not the doctors will control how her health is handled.

Sneaking around is probably not wise but may be essential. I would be frank with your strongwill mother. I will also make it very clear that should she ever have an episode as she did again- you will be taking her to the hospital without her consent. This is a serious condition which will only get worse without treatment.

Best of luck



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