Big Government v. Big Corportations (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Mercnbeth -> Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 8:20:03 AM)

I wonder why the same people who usually want to eliminate "Big Corporations" support "Big Government". The initiative of this administration is pointing to replacing as much of the public sector, both business management and unions with public employees and government run entities. Right or wrong isn't the question, its more basic. What's the difference? What's the different expectation? Better yet, why a different expectation?

Why is a big national health insurance company bad, evil, corrupt and inefficient; but the thought of a big government run health provider seen as a solution? Won't they require the same organizational structure which brings with it the same inefficiencies and corruption? Is it personal preference; the desire to pay taxes over paying a company's price? Or is it something more relevant to WIITWD?

Is it the desire to eliminate choice and decision? Maybe many people just want to be submissive. After all, if you make the wrong choice, buy a house you can't afford, elect to spend $5/day for gourmet coffee instead of allocating it for health insurance premiums; you have to live with the consequences of those decisions and can blame the big bad bankers or the cost of health care. But if the government takes away that $5 in taxes you don't get to make that choice and, I guess, people are good with that, hoping that big government will take care of them.

Is that what it comes down to? Much better to eliminate the envy of success by encumbering it to the point of making it impossible. Much better to eliminate as many personal choices as possible and abdicate as many decisions as possible over to a big government so as many decisions as possible are out of your hands. No choice, submission, acceptance, but; as with many we encountered in socialist northern Europe, a shoulder shrugging; "Oh well, 150% luxury tax on cars, 25% VAT, 71% tax on alcohol, but we have free health care. What can you do?"

Government is no longer seen as an entity which regulates and administers policy for the collective good of the majority. Now it appears that its identity and responsibility is to act as a charity. The "pursuit of happiness" interpreted by many to be, the guarantee and provider of happiness. For example, today at CSU there is a student protest because current budgetary issues will raise the fees $1000, from $3,000 to $4,000 for a year's tuition. Was a $3000 tuition fee limit Constitutionally guaranteed? The students are "on strike". How about spending that same time cutting lawns or doing some other work (sorry for using that 4 letter word) to come up with the difference?

Just want to know how the expectation of the result of big government don't consider the same result as big government? At least with work, dedication, effort, and a good plan you have the opportunity to be a big corporation. Hell, even being a little successful corporation isn't too bad and, until recently, very easy to obtain. However has anyone a chance to be a new and a little bit successful government?

Bureaucracy and bureaucrats, corporate structure and executives; what's the difference? I guess the question is, what's your expectation of difference? It has been stipulated that no government agency or program works. In this era, the question should be asked; which one is efficient and works within a budget? Anybody know of any government project that came in on time and on budget? Compare and contrast; a corporation goes out of business with a bad plan, the executive terminated. A bad government project, for example the Boston Tunnel to the airport, gets more tax money applied and reelects those responsible for planning and budget approval.

Which model provides a better example or path to follow? One focuses and rewards failure, one terminates it. One creates wealth, one redistributes wealth. One rewards success and initiative, one taxes it.

It seems the preference indicates more than just politics. It may indicate identity. What do you think?




slvemike4u -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 10:08:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I wonder why the same people who usually want to eliminate "Big Corporations" support "Big Government". The initiative of this administration is pointing to replacing as much of the public sector, both business management and unions with public employees and government run entities. Right or wrong isn't the question, its more basic. What's the difference? What's the different expectation? Better yet, why a different expectation?

Why is a big national health insurance company bad, evil, corrupt and inefficient; but the thought of a big government run health provider seen as a solution? Won't they require the same organizational structure which brings with it the same inefficiencies and corruption? Is it personal preference; the desire to pay taxes over paying a company's price? Or is it something more relevant to WIITWD?

Is it the desire to eliminate choice and decision? Maybe many people just want to be submissive. After all, if you make the wrong choice, buy a house you can't afford, elect to spend $5/day for gourmet coffee instead of allocating it for health insurance premiums; you have to live with the consequences of those decisions and can blame the big bad bankers or the cost of health care. But if the government takes away that $5 in taxes you don't get to make that choice and, I guess, people are good with that, hoping that big government will take care of them.

Is that what it comes down to? Much better to eliminate the envy of success by encumbering it to the point of making it impossible. Much better to eliminate as many personal choices as possible and abdicate as many decisions as possible over to a big government so as many decisions as possible are out of your hands. No choice, submission, acceptance, but; as with many we encountered in socialist northern Europe, a shoulder shrugging; "Oh well, 150% luxury tax on cars, 25% VAT, 71% tax on alcohol, but we have free health care. What can you do?"

Government is no longer seen as an entity which regulates and administers policy for the collective good of the majority. Now it appears that its identity and responsibility is to act as a charity. The "pursuit of happiness" interpreted by many to be, the guarantee and provider of happiness. For example, today at CSU there is a student protest because current budgetary issues will raise the fees $1000, from $3,000 to $4,000 for a year's tuition. Was a $3000 tuition fee limit Constitutionally guaranteed? The students are "on strike". How about spending that same time cutting lawns or doing some other work (sorry for using that 4 letter word) to come up with the difference?

Just want to know how the expectation of the result of big government don't consider the same result as big government? At least with work, dedication, effort, and a good plan you have the opportunity to be a big corporation. Hell, even being a little successful corporation isn't too bad and, until recently, very easy to obtain. However has anyone a chance to be a new and a little bit successful government?

Bureaucracy and bureaucrats, corporate structure and executives; what's the difference? I guess the question is, what's your expectation of difference? It has been stipulated that no government agency or program works. In this era, the question should be asked; which one is efficient and works within a budget? Anybody know of any government project that came in on time and on budget? Compare and contrast; a corporation goes out of business with a bad plan, the executive terminated. A bad government project, for example the Boston Tunnel to the airport, gets more tax money applied and reelects those responsible for planning and budget approval.

Which model provides a better example or path to follow? One focuses and rewards failure, one terminates it. One creates wealth, one redistributes wealth. One rewards success and initiative, one taxes it.

It seems the preference indicates more than just politics. It may indicate identity. What do you think?
You might want to rethink that section dealing with corporations and bad business plans....seems to me the part about them going out of business might need some tweaking.




servantforuse -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 10:11:13 AM)

Big business makes a profit and pays it's employees. Big Government steals from hard working tax payers to pay it's employees.




DomKen -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 10:12:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
What's the difference?

In simple terms, profit motive.

To expand on your argument the primary difference between a for profit health insurance company and a government run plan would be how much profit my premiums are required to generate.




couldbemage -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 10:31:49 AM)

The government is (in theory) anserable to us.

Corporations answer to themselves.

A completely free market devolves necessarily to a totalitatian dictatorship.

A regulated free market works great in some cases, but healthcare is not one of them.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 10:42:20 AM)

quote:

You might want to rethink that section dealing with corporations and bad business plans....seems to me the part about them going out of business might need some tweaking.
I'd have to agree with you under the current philosophy initiated by President Bush and being followed by President Obama.

The past two administrations have replaced corporate failure with government bureaucracy. However the question is, why do you think the big government solution will generate a different result? Why should the government inhibit the failure of business?

As we all know, taxing a corporation is impossible. Increase the tax and the impact is just an increase to the cost of the product to the end consumer and the net corporate income per share isn't impacted. Until recently, an overpriced, top heavy corporate structure generating a product price exceeding value, failed and the business went away. Now - it doesn't go away if it fails. Instead the government steps in and rewards their failure with tax money; perpetuating failure and insuring it continues to the detriment of any corporation within the same industry who didn't fail. Instead of loosing a competitor they get one funding by tax dollars - run by a government able to print money instead of earning it. The result; even if you made the decision NOT to buy GM due to their bad product and inefficiency, you are still 'buying' into their failure though a political decision to keep them in business.

You need a bit a thought "tweaking". It isn't that corporations don't fail. GM failed, AIG failed, many corporations failed. They only exist now because the government stepped in giving them tax money to continue. Instead of experiencing the pragmatic consequence of their mismanagement the government has stepped into their place to perpetuate their failure. You blaming the corporations for actions taken by the government? The same government that you have faith in to replace the corporations as providers of health, housing, food, transportation, and the happiness referenced in the Constitution?

The entrepreneurial opportunities their failures provided will never be know. They did fail, they are failing; but instead of being allowed to die, we have a government attempting to block corporate Darwinism. As a result the opportunity for a new species to evolve as it had when horse carriages and buggy whips were the dinosaurs of their times, has been lost. Instead we have a new brand of corporate government.

My question that as of yet nobody has answered, is why you think that situation is preferable or will generate any different result?

Another question, if a political structure that merges industries and government with a right wing agenda is labeled 'Fascist', what do you call that exact same merger under a left wing agenda?




philosophy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 10:49:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I wonder why the same people who usually want to eliminate "Big Corporations" support "Big Government".


.....really simple. Government is an artefact of everyone. You're a stakeholder even if you can't afford to buy shares. Corporations only answer to those who own shares......everyone else is prey.

The rest of your post is a rather forced thesis attempting to suggest that the desire to see a universal health care system run, not for profit, by government is somehow a submissive desire.

Arguably one of the most obvious pieces of sophistry i've seen in a very long time.





CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/20/2009 10:58:43 AM)

quote:

Why is a big national health insurance company bad, evil, corrupt and inefficient; but the thought of a big government run health provider seen as a solution? Won't they require the same organizational structure which brings with it the same inefficiencies and corruption? Is it personal preference; the desire to pay taxes over paying a company's price? Or is it something more relevant to WIITWD?


A big national health insurance company, if a private entity, MAY be bad, evil, corrupt, and inefficient, and it may not. The issue, for me, isn't the -size- of the entity (whether government or private) but the PURPOSE of the entity. If the entity exists to make a profit for 3rd party shareholders, it does NOT need to be handling our primary health care.

Additionally, we're not talking about ONE giant corporation here, but MANY megolithic, profit-driven companies. Profit is great. It definitely has a place in the greater scheme of things (though I disagree with the whole concept of "continuous growth"). However, it is well established and evidence has been provided to Congress as far back as the 1970s that profit-driven insurance companies can and -do- make medical decisions on which patients' lives rest, based on the economic outcome for the company.

The policy of basing economic decision on potential profit for the company is completely appropriate for a company where lives are not at stake, but the premise of an insurance company is flawed from the get-go. MOST people will get -sick- or have an accident and cost the insurance company money. MOST people will, as they age, require money to be spent on their medical care. Therefore, a company that -gambles- based on long odds of being able to keep more money than they pay to cover beneficiary "events" in a model where -most- of the beneficiaries are going to -have- "events", and where the remaining investment income meant to cover their beneficiaries is then -gambled- again through secondary investment in things like the Stock Market (which is nothing more than legalized gambling), and where these gambled investments mean increased costs so that the ancillary companies involved can make the most profit possible (including pharmaceutical companies, medical facilities, etc.), then it makes perfect sense that insurance companies, whose best interests are served -not- from caring for their beneficiaries but in having large payouts to their stockholders, have no -choice- but to look at factors -other- than the well-being of their customers in making decisions about where that money is going to go.

I work for a huge specialty hospital. We are already understaffed and have maintained at near-capacity (99-106%) for the past year, with the exception of 3 weeks while we recovered from a hurricane. We do a phenomenal amount of vital research in our specialty. -However-, our hospital regularly invests the income it receives from patients and donors into stocks, bonds, and other 'investments'. When these investments went bad, that meant that our already-understaffed hospital had to cut 10% of its existing staff in order to be able to pay its bills after having gambled away all that income. We were also ordered to increase our patient clinic load by 1/3... even though we are already at capacity for admitting patients who need in-patient care! It is considered -perfectly legitimate- for companies to make decisions like that about the money used to fund medical care in our current climate -- and yet, how do we manage increasing patient load when we have fewer nurses, PAs, administrative staff, housekeeping staff, patient transportation staff, pharmacy staff...? How do we continue to do vital research when there is no money for materials, research scientists, etc., because it was all gambled away in the stock market? How do we explain to patients that their insurance company lost a lot of money this past year, and is unwilling to take a chance on them responding to the treatment their doctor has recommended...  what are we supposed to say to the patients who come to us for care, and whose insurance companies decide that it is cheaper to let them die than to help them get the care they need?? Every -week- our doctors have to write pleading letters to insurance companies for patients because the insurance company's 'staff medical reviewer' decides that a certain procedure is not medically necessary, despite evidence in medical research, the patient's own medical records and statements of necessity from -multiple- physicians (especially since much of our treament is done based on multidisciplinary modalities). As long as health care is a 'for profit' industry, a whole slew of people will -never- receive quality, well-researched, "Best Clinical Standards" care, in a timely manner, because it just isn't in the best interests of the for-profit agencies managing the care decisions.

Whether government-managed or privately-managed, we need to go to a single-payor system with -one set- of rules for obtaining treatment, second opinions, tests, etc., and the guiding force of those rules -must- be the physician(s) who are familiar with the patient's case. Right now, this is absolutely not possible with our existing multi-corporate system. The rules vary from insurance corporation to insurance corporation. The rules are -not- based on medical need or physician recommendation, but on profit potential and "medical loss" ratios for the company. The rules are difficult to understand, and often eliminate benefits for the most needed procedures and most sick individuals -- often individuals who have paid premiums for -decades-. If you can tell me this is "right" and A-OK in your book, then I just don't know what to say to you.

DC




Mercnbeth -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 11:13:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I wonder why the same people who usually want to eliminate "Big Corporations" support "Big Government".


.....really simple. Government is an artifact of everyone. You're a stakeholder even if you can't afford to buy shares. Corporations only answer to those who own shares......everyone else is prey.
What does that mean; "an artifact of everyone?" How does "corporations only answered to those who own shares" reconcile with their customer base? Obviously GM and the others did not, or could not answer to their customers; resulting in failing their shareholders. Consequently they failed, or would have without the government stepping in. Now you are championing government to take the place of corporation and you take the choice of being a 'customer' out of the equation. You are advocating being dictated into being a customer and you see that lack of choice as a positive. You aren't eliminating prey, you are only putting the target on the people currently funding these failed entities namely the tax payer. Amazing!

quote:

The rest of your post is a rather forced thesis attempting to suggest that the desire to see a universal health care system run, not for profit, by government is somehow a submissive desire.

Arguably one of the most obvious pieces of sophistry i've seen in a very long time.
AHHHH the need to denigrate an argument instead of debating it. I truly LOVE seeing this reaction and attempt!

I'd suggest you haven't been paying attention. I was being kind - instead I could just as easily point to laziness and envy for those who succeed; but that seemed much too obvious. Instead I gave the benefit of the doubt; pointed to a generation of individuals moving away from self determination and personal responsibility to facilitate a desire which is nothing more than a yearning for nanny government to take care of them. Instead of applying selfish lazy attitudes that I associate with complicity in these policies, I tried to put a more positive spin on it. We've spawned a generation of 'submissives'.

One person's sophistry is another's pragmatic observation.




philosophy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 11:33:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What does that mean; "an artifact of everyone?"


...seriously, you need that explained?

quote:

How does "corporations only answered to those who own shares" reconcile with their customer base?


......oh, and no corporation has ever treated their customer base as prey? Oh they did, didn't they......

quote:

 Obviously GM and the others did not, or could not answer to their customers; resulting in failing their shareholders. Consequently they failed, or would have without the government stepping in.


....yup, big bad government saved the nice friendly corporation who only ever had their customers best interests at heart. Thing is, the lack of cars wont kill you. Lack of health care will. Health care in the US hasn't needed to a buy out because they really do have their customers over a barrel. People can put off buying a car fro a year or two........they can't do the same with health care can they. It's a captive market. Not because of some regulation......but because people, on the whole, find dying of preventable conditions inconvenient.

quote:

Now you are championing government to take the place of corporation and you take the choice of being a 'customer' out of the equation. You are advocating being dictated into being a customer and you see that lack of choice as a positive. You aren't eliminating prey, you are only putting the target on the people currently funding these failed entities namely the tax payer. Amazing!


.....all that only makes sense if a) you deny that government is an arm of the people and b) you totally buy into the failed mantra 'the market will provide'.  Think of the government as a corporation where you don't need money to be a shareholder.

quote:

AHHHH the need to denigrate an argument instead of debating it. I truly LOVE seeing this reaction and attempt!


...really? And lines like 'Much better to eliminate the envy of success by encumbering it to the point of making it impossible.' aren't exactly the same thing?
All you're doing is denigrating the desire of people to see a universal health system as being an artefact of envying success. You started it. Nanananabooboo.



quote:

I'd suggest you haven't been paying attention. I was being kind - instead I could just as easily point to laziness and envy for those who succeed; but that seemed much to obvious.


....you already did that. Hence my snarky tone.

quote:

Instead I gave the benefit of the doubt; pointed to a generation of individuals moving away from self determination and personal responsibility to facilitate a desire which is nothing more than a yearning for nanny government to take care of them.


......and again.

quote:

 Instead of applying selfish lazy attitudes that I associate complicity in these policies, I tried to put a more positive spin on it. We've spawned a generation of 'submissives'.


...you did both.

quote:

One person's sophistry is another's pragmatic observation.



...no it isn't.


The current health care system in the US has failed, just as surely as car manufacturers have failed there. The difference is that they've failed in different ways. Car manufacturers failed in economic terms. Health care has failed in social terms. Way too many people don't have health care, and the vast majority of them didn't choose 'to spend $5/day for gourmet coffee instead of allocating it for health insurance premiums'. (Still trying to suggest you didn't start the snarky tone in your OP?).

One of the main jobs of government is to regulate industry, so that pleasing its shareholders doesn't cause damage to the social fabric. Health care, as i've said, has failed........it's broken. You seem to be arguing that, because it is profitable, that its succesful.

In one hand i have the small child born into a poor family.....in the other i have a hundred dollar bill. Which is more important?




slvemike4u -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 12:07:28 PM)

From where I sit Philo just put this thread to sleep.....nitey-nite Merc.




servantforuse -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 12:15:51 PM)

There are consequences when business screws up. There are seldom consequences when government screws up. Obama will appoint a 'health czar'  ( czar # 34 )who will not be held accountable to the voters. They just continue wasting billions every day...




DomKen -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 12:45:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

There are consequences when business screws up. There are seldom consequences when government screws up. Obama will appoint a 'health czar'  ( czar # 34 )who will not be held accountable to the voters. They just continue wasting billions every day...

yeah completely unlike the health insurance companies.

oh wait, health insurance companies spend only $0.76 of every $1 in premiums on health care while medicare spends $0.97 of every dollar on health care.

So which side is wasting billions every day?




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 12:46:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

There are consequences when business screws up. There are seldom consequences when government screws up. Obama will appoint a 'health czar'  ( czar # 34 )who will not be held accountable to the voters. They just continue wasting billions every day...


Assuming you know what you're talking about here, then tell us how to do it better... or if you REALLY think you can fix the mess we've got, keep corporate greed active in health care, and still get coverage for the American population where every American can receive decent preventive care and treatment of illness and injuries, then take your plan to Washington, get people to back you up, show where the funding will come from, and tell Congress and the American People that this is what you've got and what you can do with it.

I hear a lot of people bitching, but -nobody- has actually put forward a better plan. I agree that the current plan sux. I agree for different reasons than some here (because it retains its dependency on insurance companies and allows those insurance companies -and- the pharmaceutical companies -and- the medical facilities to continue to seek to PROFIT off of illness!) About 30,000 of us, many of us healthcare workers who see, every day, what the Free Market has done to health care in America, presented a plan that we thought far superior to the current plan. It would have raised taxes by about 3%-3.5% across the board, irrelevant of income; covered "preventive" through "devastating" health care situations; provided groundwork for external, private "insurance" for non-essential cosmetic and other optional procedures; provided funding for research in all of the key areas of chronic disease; and would have covered 100% of the US population, including all legal residents, as well as providing limited but effective screening and infant/well-child care and immunizations for children of registered non-resident migrant-workers... but the healthcare lobby and our government "representatives" who are hung up on "killing socialist agendas" killed this really good healthcare plan three weeks into discussions by making it clear that if they couldn't profit, they wouldn't play. If you can do better, be my bloody guest.

DC




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 2:00:27 PM)

Yeah Medicare makes sure they pay, even when they do not need to or there is a more cost efficient method.

The electric wheel chairs you see sold by the Scooter Store, cost about $799 to $99 wholesale, and are sold total package for about $4000 to $5000 to Medicare recipients. Then those same recipients are entitled to new batteries every two years, so they are replaced, whether they are needed to be replaced or not. Those cushions and tired are replaced, whether they need to be replaced or not.

Have someone that is on O2 most to all of the time? They have an O2 machine at home? Well every Six months all the tubes are replaced whether they are needed or not. Need some nasal cannulas? Well those come in a package with a 50' hose, so they charge for the entire thing.

I was in the Durable Medical Supply business for a while, and the price fixing by Medicare made it impossible for those without insurance to purchase their own supplies, because if you Medicare approved you cannot sell cheaper to anyone else. Now that large corporations are in on that racket, it continues on a much larger scale. Those corporations have whole departments dedicated to Medicare billing, making sure all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed.

The entire time if someone would just open their eyes, and change some of the Medicare price fixing, companies would act in a competitive manner to try and acquire the business.

Your example shows the incompetency of government run health care, not anything good about it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

oh wait, health insurance companies spend only $0.76 of every $1 in premiums on health care while medicare spends $0.97 of every dollar on health care.

So which side is wasting billions every day?




Mercnbeth -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 2:12:55 PM)

quote:

One of the main jobs of government is to regulate industry, so that pleasing its shareholders doesn't cause damage to the social fabric. Health care, as i've said, has failed........it's broken. You seem to be arguing that, because it is profitable, that its succesful.
I did? Where did I say health care is successful? Quite the contrary, I didn't address the success or failure of any ongoing industry. I only point to the cases where companies have failed and the government has intervened. Specifically, I stated and state, that government is NOT successful in any case. Why expect that to change in this instance is still a question that remains to be addressed.
quote:

Think of the government as a corporation where you don't need money to be a shareholder.
With no consequence for failure, no termination for bad decisions, and perpetuating bureaucracy through taxes. You not only need money you need more money based upon the news being released. You also don't have any other choice and will have less influence to affect change. Unless of course you are part of a special interest or lobby; the beneficiaries who can, and do, buy shares of politicians.

quote:

......oh, and no corporation has ever treated their customer base as prey? Oh they did, didn't they......
You are 'prey' every time you walk into a store. Where is that denied or even considered as a negative? Over harvest and the prey disappears. The government doesn't have to worry about that - they just bleed more taxes to pay for their failures and hope enough prey sticks around. As we are seeing in the private sector - it's NOT happening. You haven't eliminated the prey, you're just attempting to do what they do at 'game farms'; tie the prey to a stake with it's legs bound together while the government hunter shoots it in the head. It may be a preference for you to be that kind of prey, but I'd prefer the ability to make a decision and be the prey in a market of free choice and not bred for the sport of bureaucrats.

quote:

Way too many people don't have health care, and the vast majority of them didn't choose 'to spend $5/day for gourmet coffee instead of allocating it for health insurance premiums'. (Still trying to suggest you didn't start the snarky tone in your OP?).
Not suggesting - stating a fact. Coffee, cars, foods, or the cost of internet access are decisions made as a preference, a preference over the cost of health care even if they don't come to mind during the expenditure. Like any insurance, you hate paying it and you hope you don't need it, but you make the decision. You may want to make it at 50 and find out it is much more difficult than it was at 20, but that was your decision, not a function of availability. (Go ahead and provide examples of how everyone can't get insurance now - the point is addressed back to a time when you could and chose instead not to take that option.) You made your decision for spending - live or die with the consequence of that decision.

Yes - people die, people get sick. Is government health care going to change that? Is the decision to give a 65 year old a new kidney going to change? Are people going to live forever?
quote:

One of the main jobs of government is to regulate industry, so that pleasing its shareholders doesn't cause damage to the social fabric.
Where is that written, or implied. Government can, and does regulate industry; however "damage to the social fabric!? - What the hell "social fabric" is it that the government is responsible for maintaining? Progress, especially social progress has come most often when the social fabric, such as eliminating the social fabric of slavery, is ripped away, not mended and re cycled as is the case today with corporate bailouts and government take overs.

quote:

all that only makes sense if a) you deny that government is an arm of the people and b) you totally buy into the failed mantra 'the market will provide'.
Really, that's the only way it makes sense? What about prioritizing and budgeting all expenditures based upon need and result? It would seem that makes much more sense. The market DOES provide, except when manipulated by agenda based politics. It's a proposition that stands up as well as your case of the "ONLY" way my position makes sense. The distinguishing factor is that you can point to plenty of non-government involved 'successes' and seem to be hard pressed to identify any where everyone benefits from government intervention. Because it must be everyone that is your focus, because right now some do and some don't have health coverage; voluntary or not. Yet 100% of the people who go into a emergency ward MUST be seen, by law. To address the minority of 'uncovered' individuals you want to put the government in the place of existing options giving no option to everyone - that is what makes NO sense.

quote:

The current health care system in the US has failed, just as surely as car manufacturers have failed there
The cause is also the same - government intervention; rules and policy implemented by "good intent" and not the pragmatic reality of cost and consequence. Now the suggestion is putting government in charge completely - you fail to answer how that is the solution? Or is it a solution simply because in your mined - it is; and that's all that it necessary, damn any argument to the contrary. Anyone representing themselves with the absolutism of "no it isn't" must also subscribe to the "yes it is!" rebuttal being prima facie absolute! Right?

quote:

In one hand i have the small child born into a poor family.....in the other i have a hundred dollar bill. Which is more important?
Neither and how will your government solution be better than the status quo? Because that $100 decision also should include a 50 year old 200 pounds overweight who needs it for their insulin, the 'revived' teenager who is brain dead because they were in a traffic accident, the lump found in a woman's breast who needs a mammogram today, and not scheduled 6 months from now in a government program.

Then again, you didn't address one question. You provided no argument only rhetoric and the distraction of a small child born into a poor family. Are big children from middle or upper income families not as important to consider? All of this money and bureaucracy being mandated is going to this sad occurrence? Funny, currently I know of no circumstance where a small poor child being born is turned away from any medical facility in the US. Is that the case in the UK?

You've failed to make any point, other than personal preference, that the government in charge of anything solves anything or produces a different result. You've failed to provide any example where that historically has been the case.

Shouldn't a defense of your position that the government should run health care, and everything else, include some references of prior success and results. The fact that people are sick and die won't change. Is having the government take the place of the current bureaucracy worth any other consequence? Where is the historical indicator of universal government success; since the basis of your argument seems to be limited to specific occurrences of failure? Both my parents would be long deceased if on the UK standard of care. Under private coverage, they are alive. Not as cute and cuddly as your small poor family child granted, but just as irrelevant to the specific situation you deem important enough to include as a argument point.

The basic question remains on the issue of health care or any fascist effort; why do you think that situation is preferable or will generate any different result?

More interesting would be to hear the answer to this question: If a political structure that merges industries and government with a right wing agenda is labeled 'Fascist', what do you call that exact same merger under a left wing agenda?

In case there is any question of my reference: "Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist and corporatist ideology." Facist
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

From where I sit Philo just put this thread to sleep.....nitey-nite Merc.

But mike, but hey, you forgot [sm=applause.gif] to go with your head bob! nitey nite to you too mike. As always, I appreciate your contributions.




slvemike4u -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 2:32:36 PM)

Wish I could say the same Merc,but once you read a few of your posts....there's really no sense in reading another.You have one point of view and one pet peeve....all else is simply a variation of last weeks rant.....arrivederci.




philosophy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 2:40:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Yes - people die, people get sick. Is government health care going to change that? Is the decision to give a 65 year old a new kidney going to change? Are people going to live forever?


...let's boil this rambling discussion to this single set of points.

Question one, does universal health care change the number of people who get sick? Well, the answer in those industrialised nations that do have universal health care is a resounding YES. Why? Because they have all learned that prevention is cheaper than cure and all of them run on a budget. Health insurance companies make far less money from prevention than they do from cure, so they have no incentive to institute those sort of programs. Tell me again, if the goal is a nation with better health, how does the market provide?

Question two, will the decision to give a 65 year old a new kidney change? Again, probably yes. Right now, in the US, who can get a new kidney? Is the pool of people the decision is made from include everyone who needs one, or just those who are either covered by charity or bought insurance? How many people are never going to get a new kidney, purely because of economic circumstances?

Question three. Are people going to live forever? BTW, are you still maintaining you're approaching this argument in a mature and respectful way?
No, people will not live forever. However, life expectancy will probably increase. It's those pesky, non-profitable preventative programs again.

Your entire argument is pure sophistry. Your position is that the government ought not regulate the market. You've made that abundantly clear with your assertion that the reason GM failed was, 'government intervention; rules and policy implemented by "good intent" and not the pragmatic reality of cost and consequence.'. However, pesky facts from other countries experience of universal health care cuts across that. So you've either ignored them or lied about them.
An example of this is your line, 'you want to put the government in the place of existing options giving no option to everyone - that is what makes NO sense.'
You're right, it would make no sense. Which is why, in no industrialised nation, it is the case.  As far as i'm aware, every industrialised nation with universal health care has the option of going private. You want to pay for health care directly? Sure, be my guest. However, you also want there to be absolutely no option for those who can't afford to pay. It is you who are limiting the options available, not i. It is you who are misrepresenting the experience of universal health care in eveey other industrialised nation. That's why i've used the words liar and sophist in this post. You are skewing a pragmatic argument to support your ideological agenda. Universal health care is a pragmatic choice. The only problem is that fewer people get to make a profit out of other peoples ill health. Well, boohoo.

Oh, and if you really can't see how a child from a poor family is way, WAY more important than a hundred dollar bill, you've got way more problems than a dislike of government.




DomKen -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 2:46:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yeah Medicare makes sure they pay, even when they do not need to or there is a more cost efficient method.

The electric wheel chairs you see sold by the Scooter Store, cost about $799 to $99 wholesale, and are sold total package for about $4000 to $5000 to Medicare recipients. Then those same recipients are entitled to new batteries every two years, so they are replaced, whether they are needed to be replaced or not. Those cushions and tired are replaced, whether they need to be replaced or not.

Have someone that is on O2 most to all of the time? They have an O2 machine at home? Well every Six months all the tubes are replaced whether they are needed or not. Need some nasal cannulas? Well those come in a package with a 50' hose, so they charge for the entire thing.

I was in the Durable Medical Supply business for a while, and the price fixing by Medicare made it impossible for those without insurance to purchase their own supplies, because if you Medicare approved you cannot sell cheaper to anyone else. Now that large corporations are in on that racket, it continues on a much larger scale. Those corporations have whole departments dedicated to Medicare billing, making sure all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed.

The entire time if someone would just open their eyes, and change some of the Medicare price fixing, companies would act in a competitive manner to try and acquire the business.

Your example shows the incompetency of government run health care, not anything good about it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

oh wait, health insurance companies spend only $0.76 of every $1 in premiums on health care while medicare spends $0.97 of every dollar on health care.

So which side is wasting billions every day?


So low overhead has something to do with the mandated prices? You are aware that medicare is legally forbidden from negotiating prices but must instead pay the 'prevailing' price for all services. So presumably if medicare was allowed to negotiate prices they would get better prices on everthing and still have lower than industry wide overhead costs.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/20/2009 3:04:54 PM)

quote:

Oh, and if you really can't see how a child from a poor family is way, WAY more important than a hundred dollar bill, you've got way more problems than a dislike of government.
You would need to take that position in order to ignore the reality of my argument. Sorry to put you in that position.
quote:

Well, boohoo.
Exactly my sentiments to those who don't want to experience the consequence of their decisions.

quote:

Your entire argument is pure sophistry. Your position is that the government ought not regulate the market.


Why do you have a need to define my argument - my position is clear. The government should not run any industry or market. Eliminating regulation was never raised or even addressed.
quote:

It is you who are misrepresenting the experience of universal health care in eveey other industrialised nation.
Since I didn't raise a comparison to every other, or any other, industrialized nation except in reference to first hand conversation from the people I met during my recent travels, I don't know how you can make that statement. I do know why - you lack any contrary point. However since it seems to be so critical, instead of following your example I'll point to an argument.

Specific to the subject of Health coverage in the US. All those industrialized nations have something else not found in the USA, a "loser pays" consequence of civil litigation. Unless or until the US has similar "Loser Pays" consequence to litigation health care cost will not change. You can not isolate one condition, lack of coverage affordable or not, from the circumstance that is the biggest factor to that result. Change that, and you may not need any fascist program. However, since you haven't so far, don't let facts or questions asked, get in the way of your name calling.

Now, if you want to go back to the subject of the OP - What is the benefit expectation of big government replacing big corporation?

quote:

That's why i've used the words liar and sophist in this post.
Rationalize all you want - the condition of your argument, and the lack of direct response speaks for itself.




Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625