RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 5:55:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

More interesting would be to hear the answer to this question: If a political structure that merges industries and government with a right wing agenda is labeled 'Fascist', what do you call that exact same merger under a left wing agenda?

Fascist?


In case there is any question of my reference: "Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist and corporatist ideology." Facist




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 6:41:17 AM)

quote:

You probably have health insurance, and you pay much, much more than I do, and yet...you have to worry. If you or one of your loved ones get sick, you’re dealing with a company that spends big money on finding new strategies to wiggle out of paying. Tell me this: if someone at your house gets sick, and you have insurance, will you still pay?


I spent 5 days in the ICU and 2 days on a regular ward, and had a stent placed in my renal artery 2 years ago. The final bill to me (my 20% after insurance) was $11,000... and I have really -good- health insurance for here in the States, and they paid the claims... and this is what is left over AFTER they paid my claims!

I have routine prescriptions for chronic illness that cost me over $175 a month for 3 prescriptions (with what constitutes really GOOD prescription benefits here in the States, all things considered)

And this doesn't even cover routine care, office visits, tests, and prescriptions for less active chronic and acute medical situations, emergencies, etc...

Yeah, I still pay... translate this to a percentage of my income in taxes and they could raise my taxes by 11% and still not cover what it costs me a year in health-care costs!

DC




Arpig -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 12:13:31 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

More interesting would be to hear the answer to this question: If a political structure that merges industries and government with a right wing agenda is labeled 'Fascist', what do you call that exact same merger under a left wing agenda?


Fascist?


In case there is any question of my reference: "Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist and corporatist ideology." Facist


No Merc, you misunderstand. I was suggesting an answer to your question. To me it wouldn't matter if the position was approached from the left or the right, it would still be fascist. In fact both the Italian Fascist party and the Nazis originated in a socialist movement.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 3:00:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Yes - people die, people get sick. Is government health care going to change that? Is the decision to give a 65 year old a new kidney going to change? Are people going to live forever?


...let's boil this rambling discussion to this single set of points.

Question one, does universal health care change the number of people who get sick? Well, the answer in those industrialised nations that do have universal health care is a resounding YES. Why? Because they have all learned that prevention is cheaper than cure and all of them run on a budget. Health insurance companies make far less money from prevention than they do from cure, so they have no incentive to institute those sort of programs. Tell me again, if the goal is a nation with better health, how does the market provide? Do you have any evidence of that, and the cause? That is not the experience of US companies that institute preventitive health incentives.

Question two, will the decision to give a 65 year old a new kidney change? Again, probably yes. Right now, in the US, who can get a new kidney? Is the pool of people the decision is made from include everyone who needs one, or just those who are either covered by charity or bought insurance? How many people are never going to get a new kidney, purely because of economic circumstances? Why should economics be divorced from the decision? Someone wealthy can buy a Lamborghini while others are stuck with Kia's.

Question three. Are people going to live forever? BTW, are you still maintaining you're approaching this argument in a mature and respectful way?
No, people will not live forever. However, life expectancy will probably increase. It's those pesky, non-profitable preventative programs again. Technology/pharmacology has far more to do with life expectancy increasing than preventive care.

Your entire argument is pure sophistry. Your position is that the government ought not regulate the market. You've made that abundantly clear with your assertion that the reason GM failed was, 'government intervention; rules and policy implemented by "good intent" and not the pragmatic reality of cost and consequence.'. However, pesky facts from other countries experience of universal health care cuts across that. So you've either ignored them or lied about them. Document that experience or your argument is pure sophistry. The problem is, you can't document it.
An example of this is your line, 'you want to put the government in the place of existing options giving no option to everyone - that is what makes NO sense.'
You're right, it would make no sense. Which is why, in no industrialised nation, it is the case.  As far as i'm aware, every industrialised nation with universal health care has the option of going private. You want to pay for health care directly? Sure, be my guest. However, you also want there to be absolutely no option for those who can't afford to pay. It is you who are limiting the options available, not i. It is you who are misrepresenting the experience of universal health care in eveey other industrialised nation. That's why i've used the words liar and sophist in this post. You are skewing a pragmatic argument to support your ideological agenda. Universal health care is a pragmatic choice. The only problem is that fewer people get to make a profit out of other peoples ill health. Well, boohoo.

Oh, and if you really can't see how a child from a poor family is way, WAY more important than a hundred dollar bill, you've got way more problems than a dislike of government.






willbeurdaddy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 3:10:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

As a condition of use, I propose to eliminate the second largest expense to current US health coverage - civil litigation. Use the government run and staffed clinic or facility and waive the ability to litigate. A fair trade unless winning the lawsuit lottery is as important at getting treatment


And how do you propose to handle those people who are truly damaged by doctors, staff, and errors within your government run and staffed clinic or facility? It happens, even in the best hospitals. The GI clinic I work in sees probably 3-4 cases a week of missed diagnoses, improper treatment, or botched surgery. Heck, I live with a woman who had her uterus and one ovary removed, but she still has endometriosis and a period ever month (a very PAINFUL period) because her doctor neglected to remove the cervix, and the lower segment of the uterus and the other ovary -- it was time for him to go home and the 2nd ovary had a huge cyst and adhesions that would have taken another 3 hours to remove, so he left them in and then told her he'd had second thoughts and didn't want her to have to deal with premature menopause, even though he'd told her two weeks before that her life would be a living hell if she didn't have everything removed.

How do you plan on dealing with situations like that? (BTW, we didn't sue -- and she's still suffering, and nobody else will do the surgery because her previous surgeon left so many adhesions and so much endometriosis and scarring in her abdominal cavity that they'll basically have to take everything in her belly out to fix her -- so we wait, and hope for early menopause).

No litigation -- wow, I see a collection point for medical 'professionals' who can't get malpractice insurance or who have already topped out their cap on providing half-assed care.

DC


He already answered the question...loser pays the cost of litigation. Get the ambulance chasers who take on a dozen cases hoping to hit a home run on one of them out of the equation and youve reduced insurance costs tremendously. Second, limit how much lawyers can take from an award or a settlement. $1000 an hour plus out of pocket expenses should be sufficient to not inhibit legitimate cases from going forward. Third, limit the total size of awards. Incompetent or negligent doctors should be out of the business, and paying someone's family some outrageous amount of money in the hope that it drives a doctors premiums so high that hes forced out is a bass ackwards way of accomplishing that.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 3:16:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it shows the HUGE Gross profit, down to a HUGE net profit that is gained in at least the Durable Medical Supply area.

I am probably more aware of Medicare things than you are. There are seiminars for those wanting to go into the Durable Medical Supply business, and they illustrate the areas you want to focus on, to gouge Medicare for the most.

1) Look into who and what determines the prevailing price.

2) Why is Medicare automatically primary for Senior Citizens, even if they have two or three other Insurance carries they have from other retirements?

3) In many areas Medicare lists the max price they will pay for an item, so that is exactly what they get charged.

4) If Medicare negotiated like some insurance companies do, they would get better prices.

5) I am not sure what you are basing lower overhead on, Medicare regularly goes over budget, or puts a freeze on paying vendors towards the end of their budget cycle. Sometimes it takes 180+ days to collect from Medicare, with no penalty. Private insurance has to pay on a timely basis or suffer possible fines and penalties from the state it is filed in.

Sorry but Medicare is not a good example to use, if you want to show good efficiency or good coverage.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So low overhead has something to do with the mandated prices? You are aware that medicare is legally forbidden from negotiating prices but must instead pay the 'prevailing' price for all services. So presumably if medicare was allowed to negotiate prices they would get better prices on everthing and still have lower than industry wide overhead costs.



Actually it is very efficient in not wasting money on overhead, 3% versus an industry average of 24%. You can keep complaining about how much Medicare pays for the medical services it provides but that isn't part of overhead.


Too bad the 3% is a bullshit number.

On an apples to apples basis medicare administration costs more




philosophy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 3:38:04 PM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

....here's a starting point. Two sets of life expectancy figures, one from the UN, the other from the CIA. Now, this is explicitally not a straight measure of health care, there are most certainly other factors.......but that is not to say that health care isn't one of those factors.
UK, with an NHS that explicitally focusses on preventative and diagnostic care.....is at 26 and 22 in those lists.....
Canada, with a federally mandated but provincially run universal health care system...is at 10 and 11.
USA, with its very high quality medicine for some and no health coverage for others......is at 30 and 38.

....as stated, this is not an absolute measure of health care, but health care is one of the factors that feed into these figures.

...and oh, any chance of you answering the direct question you were asked over in the Iran thread, or are you conceding the argument there?




DomKen -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 4:00:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

No it shows the HUGE Gross profit, down to a HUGE net profit that is gained in at least the Durable Medical Supply area.

I am probably more aware of Medicare things than you are. There are seiminars for those wanting to go into the Durable Medical Supply business, and they illustrate the areas you want to focus on, to gouge Medicare for the most.

1) Look into who and what determines the prevailing price.

2) Why is Medicare automatically primary for Senior Citizens, even if they have two or three other Insurance carries they have from other retirements?

3) In many areas Medicare lists the max price they will pay for an item, so that is exactly what they get charged.

4) If Medicare negotiated like some insurance companies do, they would get better prices.

5) I am not sure what you are basing lower overhead on, Medicare regularly goes over budget, or puts a freeze on paying vendors towards the end of their budget cycle. Sometimes it takes 180+ days to collect from Medicare, with no penalty. Private insurance has to pay on a timely basis or suffer possible fines and penalties from the state it is filed in.

Sorry but Medicare is not a good example to use, if you want to show good efficiency or good coverage.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So low overhead has something to do with the mandated prices? You are aware that medicare is legally forbidden from negotiating prices but must instead pay the 'prevailing' price for all services. So presumably if medicare was allowed to negotiate prices they would get better prices on everthing and still have lower than industry wide overhead costs.



Actually it is very efficient in not wasting money on overhead, 3% versus an industry average of 24%. You can keep complaining about how much Medicare pays for the medical services it provides but that isn't part of overhead.


Too bad the 3% is a bullshit number.

On an apples to apples basis medicare administration costs more

Ahh I knew if I threw out enough bait I'd get a fish.

The Heritage Foundation claim is that because Medicare treats the elderly they get a lot of services and therefore their overhead as a percentage of dollars spent is low. However that is absurd. In an ideal insurance situation premiums come in, get invested and get paid out as benefits, i.e. how sick or healthy each individual particpant is has no bearing on the overhead of the organization beyond perhaps a minimal amount of additional clerical work required by the very sick patients filing many more claims (which should push up Medicare's overhead not push it down).




Politesub53 -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 4:17:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...and oh, any chance of you answering the direct question you were asked over in the Iran thread, or are you conceding the argument there?


Phil, if you want to increase your life expectancy, don`t hold your breath. [8D]




philosophy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 4:47:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...and oh, any chance of you answering the direct question you were asked over in the Iran thread, or are you conceding the argument there?


Phil, if you want to increase your life expectancy, don`t hold your breath. [8D]


....lol......i moved to Canada......that ought to sort my life expectancy out :)




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corporations (7/21/2009 5:42:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

....here's a starting point. Two sets of life expectancy figures, one from the UN, the other from the CIA. Now, this is explicitally not a straight measure of health care, there are most certainly other factors.......but that is not to say that health care isn't one of those factors.
UK, with an NHS that explicitally focusses on preventative and diagnostic care.....is at 26 and 22 in those lists.....
Canada, with a federally mandated but provincially run universal health care system...is at 10 and 11.
USA, with its very high quality medicine for some and no health coverage for others......is at 30 and 38.

....as stated, this is not an absolute measure of health care, but health care is one of the factors that feed into these figures.

...and oh, any chance of you answering the direct question you were asked over in the Iran thread, or are you conceding the argument there?


The difference in life expectancies in that list is .64 years vs the UK and 2.28 years vs Canada. That is explained entirely by the difference in infant mortality. Life expectancies from age 5 and beyond are higher in the US than either the UK or Canada. Infant mortality rates in turn are higher in the US due to the higher rate of at risk pregnancies and greater rate of premature deliveries.

What Iran thread?




Brain -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 1:44:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I wonder why the same people who usually want to eliminate "Big Corporations" support "Big Government". The initiative of this administration is pointing to replacing as much of the public sector, both business management and unions with public employees and government run entities. Right or wrong isn't the question, its more basic. What's the difference? What's the different expectation? Better yet, why a different expectation?

Why is a big national health insurance company bad, evil, corrupt and inefficient; but the thought of a big government run health provider seen as a solution? Won't they require the same organizational structure which brings with it the same inefficiencies and corruption? Is it personal preference; the desire to pay taxes over paying a company's price? Or is it something more relevant to WIITWD?

Is it the desire to eliminate choice and decision? Maybe many people just want to be submissive. After all, if you make the wrong choice, buy a house you can't afford, elect to spend $5/day for gourmet coffee instead of allocating it for health insurance premiums; you have to live with the consequences of those decisions and can blame the big bad bankers or the cost of health care. But if the government takes away that $5 in taxes you don't get to make that choice and, I guess, people are good with that, hoping that big government will take care of them.

Is that what it comes down to? Much better to eliminate the envy of success by encumbering it to the point of making it impossible. Much better to eliminate as many personal choices as possible and abdicate as many decisions as possible over to a big government so as many decisions as possible are out of your hands. No choice, submission, acceptance, but; as with many we encountered in socialist northern Europe, a shoulder shrugging; "Oh well, 150% luxury tax on cars, 25% VAT, 71% tax on alcohol, but we have free health care. What can you do?"

Government is no longer seen as an entity which regulates and administers policy for the collective good of the majority. Now it appears that its identity and responsibility is to act as a charity. The "pursuit of happiness" interpreted by many to be, the guarantee and provider of happiness. For example, today at CSU there is a student protest because current budgetary issues will raise the fees $1000, from $3,000 to $4,000 for a year's tuition. Was a $3000 tuition fee limit Constitutionally guaranteed? The students are "on strike". How about spending that same time cutting lawns or doing some other work (sorry for using that 4 letter word) to come up with the difference?

Just want to know how the expectation of the result of big government don't consider the same result as big government? At least with work, dedication, effort, and a good plan you have the opportunity to be a big corporation. Hell, even being a little successful corporation isn't too bad and, until recently, very easy to obtain. However has anyone a chance to be a new and a little bit successful government?

Bureaucracy and bureaucrats, corporate structure and executives; what's the difference? I guess the question is, what's your expectation of difference? It has been stipulated that no government agency or program works. In this era, the question should be asked; which one is efficient and works within a budget? Anybody know of any government project that came in on time and on budget? Compare and contrast; a corporation goes out of business with a bad plan, the executive terminated. A bad government project, for example the Boston Tunnel to the airport, gets more tax money applied and reelects those responsible for planning and budget approval.

Which model provides a better example or path to follow? One focuses and rewards failure, one terminates it. One creates wealth, one redistributes wealth. One rewards success and initiative, one taxes it.

It seems the preference indicates more than just politics. It may indicate identity. What do you think?



If you really want to know, watch\listen to both parts to answer your question. After all, Ralph is the expert who spent his life fighting corporations. And don't forget to thank him for putting seatbelts in your car.

It’s all about making money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ really.

Ralph Nader: Bohemian Grove

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZMlIo0rQK0&feature=related

Ralph Nader: Bohemian Grove Pt2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCAiokLusI8&NR=1




Brain -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 2:38:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I wonder why the same people who usually want to eliminate "Big Corporations" support "Big Government". The initiative of this administration is pointing to replacing as much of the public sector, both business management and unions with public employees and government run entities. Right or wrong isn't the question, its more basic. What's the difference? What's the different expectation? Better yet, why a different expectation?

Why is a big national health insurance company bad, evil, corrupt and inefficient; but the thought of a big government run health provider seen as a solution? Won't they require the same organizational structure which brings with it the same inefficiencies and corruption? Is it personal preference; the desire to pay taxes over paying a company's price? Or is it something more relevant to WIITWD?

Is it the desire to eliminate choice and decision? Maybe many people just want to be submissive. After all, if you make the wrong choice, buy a house you can't afford, elect to spend $5/day for gourmet coffee instead of allocating it for health insurance premiums; you have to live with the consequences of those decisions and can blame the big bad bankers or the cost of health care. But if the government takes away that $5 in taxes you don't get to make that choice and, I guess, people are good with that, hoping that big government will take care of them.

Is that what it comes down to? Much better to eliminate the envy of success by encumbering it to the point of making it impossible. Much better to eliminate as many personal choices as possible and abdicate as many decisions as possible over to a big government so as many decisions as possible are out of your hands. No choice, submission, acceptance, but; as with many we encountered in socialist northern Europe, a shoulder shrugging; "Oh well, 150% luxury tax on cars, 25% VAT, 71% tax on alcohol, but we have free health care. What can you do?"

Government is no longer seen as an entity which regulates and administers policy for the collective good of the majority. Now it appears that its identity and responsibility is to act as a charity. The "pursuit of happiness" interpreted by many to be, the guarantee and provider of happiness. For example, today at CSU there is a student protest because current budgetary issues will raise the fees $1000, from $3,000 to $4,000 for a year's tuition. Was a $3000 tuition fee limit Constitutionally guaranteed? The students are "on strike". How about spending that same time cutting lawns or doing some other work (sorry for using that 4 letter word) to come up with the difference?

Just want to know how the expectation of the result of big government don't consider the same result as big government? At least with work, dedication, effort, and a good plan you have the opportunity to be a big corporation. Hell, even being a little successful corporation isn't too bad and, until recently, very easy to obtain. However has anyone a chance to be a new and a little bit successful government?

Bureaucracy and bureaucrats, corporate structure and executives; what's the difference? I guess the question is, what's your expectation of difference? It has been stipulated that no government agency or program works. In this era, the question should be asked; which one is efficient and works within a budget? Anybody know of any government project that came in on time and on budget? Compare and contrast; a corporation goes out of business with a bad plan, the executive terminated. A bad government project, for example the Boston Tunnel to the airport, gets more tax money applied and reelects those responsible for planning and budget approval.

Which model provides a better example or path to follow? One focuses and rewards failure, one terminates it. One creates wealth, one redistributes wealth. One rewards success and initiative, one taxes it.

It seems the preference indicates more than just politics. It may indicate identity. What do you think?



What do I think? I think you’ve already made up your mind corporations are the better way but I don’t think you know the whole truth. I think you need to watch this trailer and see if the corporate way is the better way or maybe a mixed economy is better with corporations monitored and regulated appropriately if that works better for people.

Creates wealth for who? Creates success for who?
Watch the trailer
http://www.foodincmovie.com/

And just to reinforce my point watch this about Texaco/Chevron and see the harm that company has done to those people.

'Justicia Now' is a documentary about ChevronTexaco's toxic legacy in the Northern Ecuadorian region of the Amazon rainforest - and a coura...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZfJjXOOAFo&feature=PlayList&p=44EA7776060CDCD5&index=0&playnext=1




Brain -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 2:56:41 AM)

I forgot this,

TEXACO ECUADOR CONTAMINATION 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkYNTPb0roE&feature=PlayList&p=44EA7776060CDCD5&index=1




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 4:17:29 AM)

~FR~

What started as a good topic, has been derailed by a couple of children. 11 may be around soon as you guys need to knock it off.

To add to some of the comments about Medicare being put up as a shining example. Medicare is managed via contract to a private health care management company Palmetto GBA http://www.palmettogba.com/palmetto/aboutarea.nsf/index.htm

There is just very little oversight of this company, and that is one of the reasons for so much fraud. 3% overhead my ass, if you charge back all the fraud and unnecesary medical procedures.




DomKen -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 6:48:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

What started as a good topic, has been derailed by a couple of children. 11 may be around soon as you guys need to knock it off.

To add to some of the comments about Medicare being put up as a shining example. Medicare is managed via contract to a private health care management company Palmetto GBA http://www.palmettogba.com/palmetto/aboutarea.nsf/index.htm

There is just very little oversight of this company, and that is one of the reasons for so much fraud. 3% overhead my ass, if you charge back all the fraud and unnecesary medical procedures.

Is it your claim that no fraud or unnecessary procedures are done when it is private insurance?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 7:50:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


There is just very little oversight of this company, and that is one of the reasons for so much fraud. 3% overhead my ass, if you charge back all the fraud and unnecesary medical procedures.


I already showed why the 3% was an apples/oranges statistical game. The real number on a comparable basis is already higher than private insurance.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 9:49:58 AM)

Why the focus on the attempted to create a Fascist Health care system? Any doubt I had concerning it was eliminated when I read the details of the Bill and listened to the President duck direct questions presented to him about it. I'd have more respect for him if he was just honest. Obviously too much to expect from any politician in the payroll of special interests. The pending bill kills choice. - End of discussion. The President wanted to spin it by saying even if you left a company you had the ability to stay with the existing insurance carrier. Except he failed to mention that the insurance carrier will not be able to add any new members to the current system only the 'new & improved' fascist version. Anyone know what happens to an insurance company when it can't add new members? Doubt it - just as I doubt anyone has read the Bill

However, where is the positive influence of the other Fascist takeovers? Is GM and or Chrysler hiring? I wonder how all the newly hired people over at AIG and Bank of America are getting used to their new jobs? What new jobs? - Exactly. $787 Billion spent by this Administration of 'stimulus' - where are the jobs? Where are the projected jobs? The Administration's own people, the CBO, is predicting is for unemployment to exceed 10%. 600,000 new jobs were promised. Wonder if that includes the 433,000 jobs lost in June? Considering the millions out of jobs since January, getting 600,000 new minimum wage jobs, the only people I know who are hiring, should make for a banner holiday season for retailers.

The good news for this - all the new taxes, are producing LESS government income. I LOVE what's happening to CA. CA - Into the Abyss Every month since raising income and sales taxes in January - State revenue has gone down, and businesses are leaving the State. I recall the President proudly announcing he and his Administration were going to follow the CA 'model'. Some 'model'; like having Rosy O'Donnell as the cover-girl for Vogue. As if high taxes, high spending, and lots of regulations are a model for economic growth. In the Fascist economic model being pursued by the policies that President Obama and Congress do you notice any difference? A Depression is not the time to create more entitlements, and more government bureaucracy. It should be a time to cut them. Want to project out the US economy - look at CA today. So similar CA is even printing its on money called 'vouchers'. No bank will honor them. How long will it take for no country to honor the US dollar? The movement to replace US currency from international trade is already happening; another Administration ac compliment.

Meanwhile, what is the focus? The religion of 'Global Warming'. 'Cap & Trade'; the Administration and Congress 'Trade'd any chance of replacing the assembly line worker, curtailed mining and oil drilling and the high paying jobs that go with it, by tipping it's 'Cap' to a religion. Great timing! Maybe a new czar and a Fascist 'energy management company on the horizon after the government takes over health care, to solve that problem.

There is very good reason for the Administration's push. He has a little over a year and a half to succeed in their agenda. The status quo of complete free reign of policy throughout government will be over after the midterm election. I applaud his attempt. I hope for the sake of people having to stick around for the economic fallout; he runs out of time.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 12:16:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Why the focus on the attempted to create a Fascist Health care system? Any doubt I had concerning it was eliminated when I read the details of the Bill and listened to the President duck direct questions presented to him about it. I'd have more respect for him if he was just honest.


You know, I've been looking for an opportunity to contribute to this thread something a little more substantive than a "head nod" to one side or the other, and this seems like a good opening. Merc, I can't disagree with you here, as much as I wish I could. As you know, I supported the man, voted for him, had high hopes.... the hopes are dimming every day. More and more in him I see a failure of leadership. He's leading as though he's still on the campaign trail, and my confidence that he has the ability to lead this critically important issue to a rational and effective solution is very low at the moment. I've already written my senators and congressional representative today, urging them to slow this health care bill down until some clarity has had time to emerge. I think the worst thing that could happen right now would be for him to get his wish and have the bill on his desk next month. Too many unanswered questions, and too little sincere effort to address these very real concerns.

And welcome back to the forums, by the way. I always value your ability to break an issue down into the basic, dollarts and cents pragmatism that comes so much more easily to you than it does to me. Even when we disagree, you make a substantial difference in the way I look at an issue, and that's more than i can say for most posters on either side of the fence.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Big Government v. Big Corportations (7/22/2009 1:34:36 PM)

As much as I hate to say so, I really think that the issue has, once again, become one of special-interest pressures and politicizing instead of good leadership. Obama is pushing so hard to get -something- significant passed before his six-months-in-office deadline that he isn't paying attention to who is controlling what he's signing, and what the meat of it actually is, and that, frankly, sucks. I'd rather have it take a reasonable amount of time and have a plan that has actually been thought -through- than some slap-dash-oh-we-solved-healthcare garbage that funds more of what we already have and doesn't solve ANY of the real problems plaguing health care in this country.

I have no problem with having a private, single-payor system, or a public one. Unlike you, Merc, I don't think that there is any real benefit to a 'choice' when it comes to basic health care, hospitalization, prescriptions, mental health care, vision care, and dental care. Having a solid single-payor system, whether public or private, and funded by either a flat-percentage premium or through a specific, flat-percentage tax would, I think, provide the basics of decent coverage for every American citizen. Beyond that, I think people should have the -option- of additional, supplemental coverage that would, perhaps, provide some coverage for optional procedures like non-medically-indicated cosmetic surgery, transgender surgery, and other obscure and not-medically-critical procedures (Botox, anyone?), and this is a place where for-profit, free-market insurance systems would be perfectly acceptable.

The thing is, I don't know that there are too many of the existing 'for profit' insurance companies who would have any interest in underwriting a guaranteed-medical-loss situation like 'not-for-profit' universal health care. These companies have to answer to their shareholders, and the reality is that the shareholders want their dividends. A free-market, for-profit solution is not going to function under the constraints of a universal health system where the physician decides what is 'medically necessary' and treatment is provided and paid for without the ability to beat up the patient (at least financially) for having the NERVE to get sick. So without the for-profit insurance agencies' willingness to participate in this 'grand experiment', who would be both willing and -able- to maintain a hands-off, centralized, universal health care system of the caliber found in the rest of the industrial world? You can't leave it as a 'for profit' industry, because medical care is, inherently, a loss-based system. Even providing preventive care only -reduces- the amount of loss, it can't eliminate it (especially since providing preventive care -still- is a medical loss in insurance terms, because it has to be paid for instead of bringing money -in-).

Right now, the only group that I can see having the infrastructure, experience, and motivation to actually create -any- kind of working universal health care system in this country IS the government -- if hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, nursing homes, etc., are no longer profit-bearing institutions, how long do you think that they are going to continue operating unless some entity comes in and picks up the expensive white elephant?

Perhaps there will be some private foundations who will be able to cobble something together, but so far, I haven't seen -anyone- willing to do what needs to be done. All I've heard and seen thus far (including from the bills that are being considered in Congress) are people mollifying and agreeing to pad the pockets and offer more profit opportunities for the parasitic system that is already in place, and I'm sorry, but that just -doesn't- work.

So... if the government doesn't take on the task of universal health care, who will?

Dame Calla




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