RE: Master/slave questions (Full Version)

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SlyStone -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 5:54:43 PM)

quote:

If he stops determining and maintaining the hold, the dynamic is gone and therefore, so is the unconditional aspect.



But Angel  here is the rub, and I am not being factious because that was a pretty terrific explanation and really this is just an intellectual musing, I am not trying to criticize or nitpick. Having said that my question is this :)

Who determines when he stops determining and maintaining his hold?. Because I kind of doubt it is gonna be him. And if it is the slave that makes that determination, then doesn't the dynamic becomes conditional while it is still in existence?




littlegirlbc -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 5:56:05 PM)

barelynangel your take on TPE is a real relevation on me.. a really practical refreshing angle, and very helpful to my current situation.

i tried to message you but your profile isn't up. could you message me?

thank you,

slave alice



barelynangel -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:01:15 PM)

quote:

Who determines when he stops determining and maintaining his hold?.


Chuckles, oh that's easy SlyStone -- if she CAN leave, she should leave. In otherwords, if the girl has the capability of actually following through on her self-determination she is no longer enslaved or mastered. Once that occurs -- the dynamic no longer exists. A person can HOLD THEMSELVES through their own determination of what being a slave is in a concept of slavery -- but to me that is not a slave but someone who is free making a determination for themselves in how they exist in a Man's life versus the Man doing so.

I know this is really hard for people to understand especially if you have never experienced it, but mastery if a very POWERFUL hold on a girl, and there are many times a girl will say fuck this and head for the door, however, in the end - she just can't leave to do so -- its simply that. She just can't leave and instead she winds up many times begging him to keep her.

I guess what it comes down to is this -- you can't explain to someone what the color purple is if they have never seen it. Its very hard to explain mastery to people who have never experienced it or who have never held someone in same.

angel



barelynangel -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:02:57 PM)

Hi Alice, sure i will pm you. However, for future reference if you look below the picture and then the stats you will see

Hide Profile PM

Even with my profile hidden people are able to pm me through this mechanism.

angel



SlyStone -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:11:38 PM)


I know this is really hard for people to understand especially if you have never experienced it, but mastery if a very POWERFUL hold on a girl,

Honestly it is not that hard to understand at all. You may think it is a great mystery only known to a few, but really it's not.



Its very hard to explain mastery to people who have never experienced it or who have never held someone in same.

Actually people master others every day, and even in a so called  vanilla relationship a man can hold a women with the same mastery you attribute to the TPE, it happens every day, no big deal. It comes down to need and expectations, the dynamic is largely irrelevant except to those who value it over the relationship itself.




BitaTruble -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:13:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Who determines when he stops determining and maintaining his hold?. Because I kind of doubt it is gonna be him. And if it is the slave that makes that determination, then doesn't the dynamic becomes conditional while it is still in existence?


It's absolutely him (or her.. TPE is not gender specific). The one who holds power makes the determination to do or not do.. hold it or not hold it, be or not be. If the choice of the one in power is to not be in power, the dynamic no longer exists.

A dynamic cannot be conditional when it has already ceased to exist. You are describing a paradox.

I also think you're asking the wrong question. Do you want to know at what moment in time that a slave is self-determining?

There isn't one. If one moment one is a slave it's because they are still held as a slave. If in the next moment the one in power ceases to hold that power, there is no more slave and in that moment, the free will of the former slave is reinstated.

The question I think you want to ask is if the one in power fails to recognize they are no longer holding the power, what does the slave do? Is that right?

Same answer if that's your question. The slave is no longer, so they would do what their free will tells them to do. Just because the Master/Mistress fails to recognize they are no longer in power doesn't change the fact that they are no longer in power.

Does that make sense?




SlyStone -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:17:52 PM)

quote:

Does that make sense?




To me no. To you yes.

Let us leave it at that and call it a day.



barelynangel -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:18:38 PM)

Slystone, if you just want to play the technicality game -- fine. But i have better things to do.

Do what you have to do lol, based on many comments people have, discussions on these boards and others and general discussions on the subject, no -- most people have no clue what the mastery is in a deliberate concept to hold a TPE in the actuality. Sure could someone accidently do it -- yeah, but a deliberate doing so --- i haven't come across many men who understand the concept enough and who have let go of their societal teachings enough to create what is needed to maintain a M/s relationship based upon his ability to master and enslave because of HIS determination to do so. Accidentally having it occur without definition to it to me is not TPE, its opps hey mom look what i did, but i don't know what i did.

As people enjoy saying -- your mileage may very. I however am not going to waste my time with soemone who wants to bring every possible varience based on individuals and what creates the mastery among them to the whole just to be technical.

angel



NihilusZero -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:26:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


See I think the mistake of those who define a TPE as unconditional is that they create a false expectation for themselves that cannot exist in the real world.

No more so than two people agreeing to a monogamous marriage creating "a false expectation" of faithfulness.

It's not the ideal that's the ever problem. It's always the people involved.



BitaTruble -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:29:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

To me no. To you yes.

Let us leave it at that and call it a day.[/font][/color]



Not a problem. Have a great day.



NihilusZero -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 6:36:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

People always seem to see unconditional as an ACTIVELY defined concept of actions and doings instead of simply the whole of the relationship that exists unconditionally on his determinations.

The pertinence of this caught me a bit later, after reading it.

I keep seeing the presumption that a TPE/APE/CAD dynamic must be continually active in order for it to be in effect; that, somehow, the M-type must be present at every moment to permit or decline each breath as if the constructs of the dynamic (as loose or strict as the M-type wishes) could not be laid out beforehand and be observed in a latent auto-pilot fashion.



DemonKia -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 7:34:35 PM)

Thank you for your reply. I was really just curious how your definition extended to a hypothetical, rather extreme example situation . .... . I have very little interest in judging others' feelings, but I am very interested in hearing them described. You did an excellent job, & think I do understand more . .. ..

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Given this definition I'm curious as to what would happen if the M, say, had a stroke or accident & ended up in a vegetative coma & the choice was made to keep that person alive thru machines & nursing care. What would you, if you were that person's slave, see as your course of action?

 



Greetings,

I'm assuming you mean what would I do if both my Master and Mistress were in such a state, because if not I would continue the other.

That would depend on the level of devotion I had for said man prior to it happening...
In other words, it would depend on if the memory of him would be enough to compel me to serve him.

Again compare it to love, how much love would be needed to keep you there in such a situation?
Now double that amount and you would probably have the amount of devotion a girl like me would need to have to stick around.

If my devotion ran deep, I would probably keep serving him for a very long time to come -if not till the very end- even if said serving might only be by visiting.
In other areas of my life, my obedience to his will would probably fade away pretty fast on most things (though most likely not all), simple because he would no longer be able to control them things, or even care about them.

If my devotion was not deep, I would probably be out of there pretty fast and go do something else with my life; Most likely find a new man that could compel me.

In both situations, if I would meet another man that could compel me to obey, then I would submit to his will and do what he thought best.

I know this sounds selfish and coldhearted, because well, it is selfish and cold coldhearted, but it just seems to be how I am wired to respond.
Master is fully aware of what my reactions would be in a situation like that, which is exactly why he keeps me as a slave and not something else.
Even if he was not married, I would never be his wife, lover, girlfriend of partner, exactly because he knows I would react like that. He does not have the expectation of me that I would take responsibilities that I am not naturally inclined to take; thus he keeps me as his slave and removes the responsibilities for decisions like that from me.
He wouldn't expect me to suddenly start taking the responsibility for decision like that just because he is no longer around, in fact, quit the opposite. I think he would expect me to go do stupid stuff instead.

I wish you well,

ishy




leadership527 -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/27/2009 9:17:48 PM)

I was with you there for a moment sweetgirlserves. At first, those two categories sounded right... or at least useful. But the more I got to looking at Carol, the more I realized she actually showed both of those attributes and I'm not really sure they are separable.

One one hand, Carol doesn't think like a "slave".. or a bdsm'er... or a kinkster... near as I can tell. She's just my wife who has a pretty flexible mindset and really likes to please me.... A LOT... When I think of her like that, she pretty clearly fits "TPE Free".

But, I could easily also argue the compelled thing. The bottom line is that Carol loves and respects me because of who I am. Without something somehow changing in the situation, she could no more leave me than I could leave her. And, as long as the two of us are together (and we ran into this not too long ago.. it was amusing) no matter what we say about wanting or not wanting an authority dynamic, she will still be her and I will be me. I could remove her collar, but the only way to free her would be to divorce her.

The more I thought about those two things the more it seemed to me that they were inextricably wrapped in and around each other. Perhaps those descriptions have some merit though at the topmost layers... a way to at least see what sort of initial door someone's coming out of. At that topmost layer, Carol is definitely coming out of the "free woman" category.



IronBear -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 3:53:38 AM)

What I am seeing is the usual merry-go-round of theoretical arguments for and against TPE. The only people who can really speak for or against it are those who are or have been involved, and then they can only speak about their own personal experiences and how it effected them and no one else or other TPE Dynamic which may be completely different. There are some of us here who have had or have successful M/s TPE Dynamics and know that it can and does work well.It is not something you can refine in a crucible and bottle for sale for those who are unable to get such a dynamic working, or who don't know how. Nor can you reduce it to a formula. the secrets are solely dependent on the uniqueness of each person in that successful TPE dynamic and can not be reproduced in another group of people nor is it easily to explain as there are so many areas which are more like wisps of incense smoke drifting to form something tangible.



SlyStone -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 5:42:29 AM)

quote:

What I am seeing is the usual merry-go-round of theoretical arguments for and against TPE.



Interesting, I didn't think that at all, I thought we were discussing the TPE, not praising or condemning it. As always perspective is in the eye of the beholder.

The majority of the discussion on this board is theoretical, not all but most. We are, after all, attempting to hash out the philosophical and dynamic nature of the beast so to speak, and broad strokes are needed in a generalized discussion.

Anyway, I thought it was a good discussion and I appreciate all those responded to my thoughts and queries.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 7:00:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

Who determines when he stops determining and maintaining his hold?.


Chuckles, oh that's easy SlyStone -- if she CAN leave, she should leave. In otherwords, if the girl has the capability of actually following through on her self-determination she is no longer enslaved or mastered. Once that occurs -- the dynamic no longer exists. A person can HOLD THEMSELVES through their own determination of what being a slave is in a concept of slavery -- but to me that is not a slave but someone who is free making a determination for themselves in how they exist in a Man's life versus the Man doing so.

I know this is really hard for people to understand especially if you have never experienced it, but mastery if a very POWERFUL hold on a girl, and there are many times a girl will say fuck this and head for the door, however, in the end - she just can't leave to do so -- its simply that. She just can't leave and instead she winds up many times begging him to keep her.

I guess what it comes down to is this -- you can't explain to someone what the color purple is if they have never seen it. Its very hard to explain mastery to people who have never experienced it or who have never held someone in same.

angel


Of course by this definition, if someone has left a given master then it wasn't TPE, despite having declared it over and over and over on the boards.  But we are expected to believe them the next time they are in a TPE relationship because, well they say they are in one.

FOR THOSE TOO DENSE TO GRASP THE STATEMENT, I AM NOT DENYING TPE EXISTS, JUST EXPLAINING WHY SOME OF US LAUGH AT 90% OF THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE IN ONE.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 7:16:33 AM)

quote:


For me the difference between a TPE and a non-TPE is the following:

Non-TPE: I promises to obey you if and when you meet conditions X, Y and Z. Should you no longer meet conditions X, Y and Z then I revoke my promises to obey you because you breached our agreement.

TPE: You compel me to obey you because of X, Y and Z qualities that I see in you that makes me need to be with you. Because you compel me to obey, I have no choice but to obey you until that time that you would no longer compel me to obey.


i am not trying to be argumentative but i honestly don't get the difference between these two statements. In one the conditions by which i (generic i) will obey you and continue to obey you are prespoken. In the other the conditions under which i will obey you and continue to obey you are still there, they are just more internalizes, but they are conditions none the less.

There was a quote on the Gorean board that struck me as very similar on dealing with the concept of consentual slavery. That quote is as follows:

quote:



I don't know about heart of a slave.. to me it's far easier to define and not so ambiguous as all that. I recognize myself as a slave, because I'm incapable of being free. In other words, I didn't 'become' a slave. I accepted discovery of my inability to be free. That's why I had to be so careful with the situations I put myself in. I learned a very harsh lesson from my first Master.. a lesson learned that did NOT need to be repeated, so I was really careful to keep my walls up and firmly in place because I knew that I'd be a sucker for the right sort of man even if he was the wrong sort of man. I do agree that no Mastery will change that .. one is or is not free but I think most slaves require that Mastery to make the discovery. -- quoted from Bita Truble



i don't get how whether overtly or not, that is not requiring the that person who becomes your Master to have certain requirements of personality and how allowing the walls to come down so that a person with those qualities will Master you is not some form of consent.


heartfelt



Drakontos -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 7:17:31 AM)

Fast reply:

zaphira admits that she is amazed that the argument about tpe goes to such lengths.

Is zaphira in a TPE dynamic? The slave does not know. What she does know is this:

if Master tells zaphira to jump, she will jump first and ask how high second.
if Master decides to lock zaphira in the basement, then zaphira is locked in the basement.
if Master wishes for zaphira to walk around naked while the preacher from the church is in the house, then zaphira will walk around naked.
if Master wishes to have sex with zaphira, even though it was something that was agreed that would not happen between us; then zaphira will have sex with Master.
If at any time, Master decides to change a pre-agreed upon area; that is Master's perogative. zaphira has no say in it what-so-ever.

In other words; zaphira's relationship is governed by him and him alone. zaphira has no say in what happens.

On the other hand though; yes, zaphira has the right to walk out the door at any time. If zaphira does that though, she knows that there will be no 'second chances', no reconcillations, no Master saying 'let's talk about this first'.
If zaphira decides to dishonor herself and walk out the door; she is on her own from that moment on.

Looking at it this way, zaphira is sure that most would say that zaphira does not have a TPE/APE dynamic because zaphira retains the right to walk out the door.

It matters little to zaphira though. This slave lives by Masters decisions, his thoughts, his definitions, his way of doing things. zaphira lives life on Masters terms; others ideas of what her dynamic may or may not be is of little importance to this slave.

Call it TPE, call it APE, call it anything you wish. Changing the name does not change the facts of the dynamic.



BitaTruble -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 7:36:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Of course by this definition, if someone has left a given master then it wasn't TPE, despite having declared it over and over and over on the boards.  But we are expected to believe them the next time they are in a TPE relationship because, well they say they are in one.




The "E" doesn't stand for eternal. If a couple gets divorced, that doesn't mean they were never married.



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/28/2009 7:44:58 AM)

Hi zaphira,

I understand where you are coming from... the question, I think, relating to TPE is what is the IMPERATIVE/ motivation behind those actions... and then, once that is understood... determining *who* is the *cause *of that imperative/motivation.

Otherwise, externally, tpe looks the same... one person commands, the other person obeys.

If the imperative/motivation is generated from within herself... she admires the man, trusts him with her life, and wants to please him...so she determines/decides to submit herself to him, then she is a free person, not a slave... although a free person who has decided to accept the direction of another for her life.  This would be the paradigm illustrated best by the idea of 'her gift of submission'.   If I am giving you a gift, i am free.

If the imperative/motivation is generated from him... he compels her  to want to be his... and that compellation is what drives her... (hopefully, yes... she trust him too... but unfortunately this is not necessarily so)...and so there really is no 'decision' - she is just reacting to him (think of a paperclip reacting to a strong magnet)... then she is a slave.   Her submission is not a gift at all... it is taken from her.

~sgs



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