RE: Master/slave questions

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NihilusZero -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/25/2009 9:25:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero intoxicating eros Oi! I'm the one who tries to impress girls by pretending to be a classicist round here. Find your own damn shtick. [:@] Sorry. [:(] How about "intoxicating porn" instead?

Mistressbinature -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/25/2009 9:46:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: runnerslut4mstr Hi. I'm recently new to this lifestyle, howeverI have known its what I've wanted to do for a while. I have recently had a master own me. I have researched for a few years about what this lifestyle was about and everything with it. My question is about the TPE lifestyle. I feel that this is the type of lifestyle I want to live, however I have set a few limits on what I wont give up control over due to my very strong feelings and expections (I guess you could call them expectations). I dont want to give up(nor do I think its right for me to be asked to either) my family or friends. The two other things I wont give up and go hand in hand are my future career in the military (have had these plans for a few years now) and my schooling because of a promise I made to a family member. Now I have talked with my master and we are still having an ongoing discussion about whether or not I will have to give up ROTC and joining the military, but possibly continue schooling. He has mentioned the ROTC thing as a we'll see whether or not you shall finish it. I was wondering if there were other master/mistress out there that could give me their opinion on this matter. Is it wrong of me to ask to keep the school and ROTC due to the promise I had made to a family member that I would continue my schooling and complete the ROTC program? I am willing to be collared and serve my master, but I feel a strong desire to fulfill this promise that I made to my family member. I am new to this, so I dont know exactly what is the right way/wrong way for a Dom to act about these things. I just want to make sure I do the right thing with all of this. No, just because you agree to go into a tpe, it does not allow someone to disrespect, push or manipulate your hard limits, not yesturday, not today or anyday in the future of the relationship. Nor does it take away your right to add to the list in the future for whatever your reason. And whatever decision you make, regardless of what any poster may say, myself included, you do what is right for you

LadyNTrainer -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/25/2009 10:44:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mistressbinature No, just because you agree to go into a tpe, it does not allow someone to disrespect, push or manipulate your hard limits, not yesturday, not today or anyday in the future of the relationship. Nor does it take away your right to add to the list in the future for whatever your reason. And whatever decision you make, regardless of what any poster may say, myself included, you do what is right for you While there is a great deal to be said for the practicality and workability of a D/s relationship that includes respect for hard limits, the correct term for that relationship is not, by definition, TPE. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 6:05:39 AM)
quote: No, just because you agree to go into a tpe, it does not allow someone to disrespect, push or manipulate your hard limits, not yesturday, not today or anyday in the future of the relationship. Nor does it take away your right to add to the list in the future for whatever your reason. And whatever decision you make, regardless of what any poster may say, myself included, you do what is right for you So, just to be clear, what you are -really- saying is that TPE relationships should not exist. While I respect that your comment on how D/s (M/s) relationships look and what they require may look like a perfect D/s relationship to you, I would put out there that this philosophy does not mesh with the concept of "TPE" or 'comprehensive authority' dynamics. The entire -point- of that completely consuming type of D/s (M/s) relationship is that every choice is yielded up, including choices about what limits or boundaries will be "respected". I can understand not wanting to -be- in a relationship that does not respect these boundaries, but it seems deceitful to then turn around and call the relationship "TPE" or a similar acronym. The whole -point- of a TPE relationship is that the person in charge of the relationship is -completely- in charge, including being in charge of what boundaries are allowed to exist, and in TPE, the reality is that that decision can change from today to tomorrow. It is part of the thrill and amazing level of trust that comes along with a relationship like this, and taking this piece away takes away the entire POINT of being in this kind of relationship. Dame Calla

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 6:13:19 AM)
[sm=offtopic2.gif] quote: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya InconCEIVable. Vizzini

NihilusZero -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 8:53:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW [sm=offtopic2.gif] quote: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya InconCEIVable. Vizzini 10 points to each of you for that. [:)]

pleasuredancer -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 9:24:52 AM)
I am still trying to make it through this thread, but did anyone mention that, if you are in the military, you already have a TPE relationship? I imagine one can work around the fact that the military structure will have first rights over someone, but it are the 'owners' of any one subject to it.

NihilusZero -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 9:36:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pleasuredancer I am still trying to make it through this thread, but did anyone mention that, if you are in the military, you already have a TPE relationship? I imagine one can work around the fact that the military structure will have first rights over someone, but it are the 'owners' of any one subject to it. People habitually find it easier to surrender (more of) themselves to an entity or idea, rather than to an individual. Perhaps because it's easier to hold on to the remnants of autonomy when there isn't a specific someone holding the leash and because it's easier to translate an entity or idea into a magical symbolic representation of something noble and worth the sacrifice.

pleasuredancer -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 10:05:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero People habitually find it easier to surrender (more of) themselves to an entity or idea, rather than to an individual. Perhaps because it's easier to hold on to the remnants of autonomy when there isn't a specific someone holding the leash and because it's easier to translate an entity or idea into a magical symbolic representation of something noble and worth the sacrifice. Nihilus-- That is really pretty sounding to this former philosophy minor's ear. You might be right, as well, which is just making my point. No matter what the OP decides in this matter, I think she is screwed. If she puts her foot down and joins the military, it will become her owner. If she decides to give up her dreams for some young dude, he will forever be compared to her first chioce of master.

DesFIP -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 10:21:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer While there is a great deal to be said for the practicality and workability of a D/s relationship that includes respect for hard limits, the correct term for that relationship is not, by definition, TPE. Yeah but looking at it objectively there isn't a single TPE relationship around by your definition. "I'm going to cut off your head" "Sure Master". We all have hard limits whether they are imposed on us like the law of gravity, or physical disabilities such as not being able to do food control if you're a diabetic. Or mental or emotional ones. We talk about the D having the same limits as the s, but the truth is the D has to accept the limits if he/she wants to keep the s. If he decided to pick up an underage runaway and train her as second sub, there hopefully is not a one of us who would not say red to that, and please call the cops stat.

NihilusZero -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 10:27:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP We talk about the D having the same limits as the s, but the truth is the D has to accept the limits if he/she wants to keep the s. Or have the awareness to avoid relationships with s-types that cannot surrender to the degree (s)he wishes.

IronBear -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 11:09:02 AM)
Stone the bloody crows, you blokes make a D/s relationship sound like you need to be trained and experienced in contract and human rights law! Perhaps this is what has ensured that I stay away from a D/s relationship and stay with the M/s relationshuips which I understand and can deal with far more easily.

LillyoftheVally -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 11:15:53 AM)
[8\|]

sravaka -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 11:18:09 AM)
quote: Yeah but looking at it objectively there isn't a single TPE relationship around by your definition. "I'm going to cut off your head" "Sure Master". We all have hard limits whether they are imposed on us like the law of gravity, or physical disabilities such as not being able to do food control if you're a diabetic. Or mental or emotional ones. We talk about the D having the same limits as the s, but the truth is the D has to accept the limits if he/she wants to keep the s. If he decided to pick up an underage runaway and train her as second sub, there hopefully is not a one of us who would not say red to that, and please call the cops stat. Two things: 1) limits are malleable. 2) with TPE, I think it's not so much about having limits that match as it is about the s-type leaving her limits to be managed by the D-type, for his purposes and for the good of the relationship. In the case of the OP, if she (and the prospective master) were ready for TPE it would be up to him to decide whether she is going to pursue a career in the military or not. If he chooses not to let her, for whatever reason, it would fall to him to manage her in the context of the conflict she fears it will create with promises she has made to other people in her life, and/or to put her on some other path that will fulfill her and allow her to take care of herself in the long run. The main judgment she has to make before entering the TPE is whether he is more capable of making such decisions than she is, again, for the good of everyone. As for the more out there examples you give above.... well, this is why you wouldn't enter a TPE with someone you haven't gotten to know. I'm inclined to doubt that a head-cutter-offer dom is going to be enough in control of himself to get a submissive to the point where she'll accept that (a less malleable limit than others, one hopes). (but, I could tell you stories.) Gravity? I hope he has better things to do than tangle with gravity; if not he'll get her a jet pack. Physical limitations? You inform him fully and he'll live with them or get you surgery or therapy or whatever. The crux of the matter is in mental/emotion limitations. As far as I'm concerned, it takes a really amazing person to inspire slave-y reactions and aspirations. I've already gotten to know that he's not the sort to add teenage runaways to the household. But imagine instead... I don't know. Some sex act or BDSM thing or phobia. In a non-TPE she simply says no, not now, not ever, and that's that. In a TPE that's founded on affection and trust and other good things.... he may leave that limit alone initially (though he may state an intention to do something about it in the future)... and then work on it gradually as the relationship deepens and her trust deepens. It may take months, or years. It may never be fixed entirely. But the point is that once she's in the TPE, she leaves it to him to manage. Wonderful things may ensue for her, that would never happen if she stuck adamantly to her Inviolable List of Limits. I think that groping for the most extreme/ridiculous examples distorts the picture unnecessarily, and sheds little light on what TPE is or might be.

Leonidas -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 11:36:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Yeah but looking at it objectively there isn't a single TPE relationship around by your definition. "I'm going to cut off your head" "Sure Master". What's it been? 15 years almost? I can't believe that this argument still gets floated. TPE: Holy shit, I'm running away and dialing 911. Not TPE: Wait a minute, we agreed when we were negotiating my submission that there would be no chopping off of my head. I think we need to call one of our contractually agreed to "out of character" sessions and talk about this. Lets put aside the absurdity of feeling like you'd need to negotiate the "no head chopping clause" for a moment. Once again, TPE is defined by the fact that there are no pre-negotiated or agreed to limits to the authority of the dominant party over the submissive party. Is that really so hard to understand? TPE: I'm submitting to you and putting myself into your hands without condition. Not TPE: I'm submitting to you and putting myself into your hands subject to the following conditions and areas that are exempted from your authority over me. We agree in advance that I get to do what I think is best when it comes to those things and I won't submit to you unless you agree. FFS, no, entering into a TPE arrangement does not mean that you checked your will to live at the door, nor does it mean that you have suspended the physical laws of the universe. Is there something mysterious or overly rocket-science like that I'm missing here? And yes, many many folks live in relationships that fully meet the definition of TPE and do just fine. Many of those relationships look pretty normal, and there isn't a set of leather chaps or a St. Andrews in sight. If you don't choose to, or don't think you could, that's cool, but that does not mean that it's impossible, or even that hard. Edit: One other comment here. TPE does entail some degree of risk. In the unlikely scenario that the submissive, at the moment, accepts her dominant's judgement that she'd be better off without her head she will lose her head, and the dominant will have to be accountable for killing his or her slave. Power, and accountability, go hand in hand. If you are considering submitting yourself as a TPE slave, you would be very wise to know to whom you are submitting, and be reasonably certain that you're not likely to face the head-chopping scenario.

SlyStone -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 12:27:59 PM)
quote: TPE: I'm submitting to you and putting myself into your hands without condition. It seems to me that there are always conditions, and you cannot know, any more then the submissive can know. how she would react if faced with an untenable situation, ie life or death, be it physical or emotional. In my opinion your argument only holds true if one believes that the "slave" in a TPE relationship cannot physically or emotionally walk away, because to me that is the biggest condition of them all. Because otherwise I think there remains the need for a certain amount of suspension of belief in order for what you consider to be the reality to exist, which by the way is not necessarily a bad thing.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 1:02:17 PM)
quote: quote: quote: TPE: I'm submitting to you and putting myself into your hands without condition. It seems to me that there are always conditions, and you cannot know, any more then the submissive can know. how she would react if faced with an untenable situation, ie life or death, be it physical or emotional. In my opinion your argument only holds true if one believes that the "slave" in a TPE relationship cannot physically or emotionally walk away, because to me that is the biggest condition of them all. Because otherwise I think there remains the need for a certain amount of suspension of belief in order for what you consider to be the reality to exist, which by the way is not necessarily a bad thing. See, so many -still- just don't get it. Whether it lasts for only today or lasts -forever- is -irrelevant-. Nothing is forever, and yes, the ultimate ending to a TPE relationship is to walk away, which is always a possibility. Some of us even have a "step down" option, for folks who are in a place where the idea of letting someone else make all the decisions on their behalf is no longer functional for the relationship, but where everyone agrees that the individual in question still has a place in service to the House and that person still -wants- that place. The whole point of being in a TPE relationship is that the boundaries on the management of an individual's life are so thin that they are, basically, non-existent. Yes, crap can happen and things can change, but the thing is, for 99.9% of day-to-day life, it isn't about extreme circumstances... it is about regular day-to-day stuff, and complex but resolvable decisions. Sure, it may take some time to choose to give up all conceivable measure of authority to another person (or take on that level of authority over another person)-- but for some people, this is something they've been looking for for a long time. Some people are NEVER going to want to give up anything but the barest minimum of authority over their lives, and some people are never going to want to take on that kind of responsibility for another person's life, and that's just hunky-dorey, but the thing is, there are those of us out there who -do- enjoy and flourish under whatever measure of perceived maximal authority dynamic we've carved out. So it may not hold up to being hit by a semi-truck or falling out of an airplane from 30,000 feet, or even to unexpectedly finding one's heart captured by someone new in such a way that having one's life under another person's control just doesn't leave enough of oneself for the newcomer and it is no longer tenable to exist that way, but heck, why spend all the joy of an entire relationship worrying about 'what if' and trashing out the potentials in the minutae. sighs [sm=banghead.gif] Dame Calla

leadership527 -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 1:47:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW The whole point of being in a TPE relationship is that the boundaries on the management of an individual's life are so thin that they are, basically, non-existent. Yes, crap can happen and things can change, but the thing is, for 99.9% of day-to-day life, it isn't about extreme circumstances... it is about regular day-to-day stuff, and complex but resolvable decisions. I mostly agree with this Dame Calla. I agree that it is fruitless to chase an endless series of "what-if" scenarios. On the other hand, at least some of these theoretical situations do, in fact, matter to me. I'm still sorting out whether any of them ought to matter or not. Still, the thrust of what you're saying matches my relationship. Whatever theoretical limits and boundaries are between Carol and I, they are so far outside our day-to-day life that even if I do decide I care about them, I'm in no rush to "fix" them. In the end, Carol pleases me. I'm pretty good with that.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 2:18:30 PM)
No it means that the slave trusts the owner to be able to handle any situation that comes up, and abides by their decision or uses the door. Like Leonidas said, it is not complicated to understand. No suspension of belief needed, just trust, devotion and putting all decisions into another person's hands. quote: ORIGINAL: SlyStone quote: TPE: I'm submitting to you and putting myself into your hands without condition. It seems to me that there are always conditions, and you cannot know, any more then the submissive can know. how she would react if faced with an untenable situation, ie life or death, be it physical or emotional. In my opinion your argument only holds true if one believes that the "slave" in a TPE relationship cannot physically or emotionally walk away, because to me that is the biggest condition of them all. Because otherwise I think there remains the need for a certain amount of suspension of belief in order for what you consider to be the reality to exist, which by the way is not necessarily a bad thing.

SlyStone -> RE: Master/slave questions (7/26/2009 3:17:31 PM)
but heck, why spend all the joy of an entire relationship worrying about 'what if' and trashing out the potentials in the minutae. Who said anything about spending an entire relationship doing anything? I thought we were discussing the unconditional surrender that is the basis of the TPE relationship. And my opinion is that no human being can know how they will react emotionally to a given set of stimuli until they are exposed to it, and the world is an ever changing place, and so the precept, or acceptence thereof, of unconditionality, is in my mind unrealistic. I am in no way judging the TPE relationship, I am taking issue with the idea that its defining characteristic is that the submissive submits without condition. I think it can be a viable and healthy relationship, I am only taking exception as to how it is being defined. And of course, in the end, how we define things is largely irrelevant to how we in fact live, but if we take that to heart what are we going to talk about here :) sighs The feeling can be mutual, I assure you.

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