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RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 3:35:19 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
it's easier to translate an entity or idea into a magical symbolic representation of something noble and worth the sacrifice.

I defer to Terry Pratchett on this issue.

No. Men should die for lies. But the truth is too precious to die for.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 4:11:37 PM   
capthook


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/15/2004
Status: offline 		As I see it, yes and no.
Yes I would (and do) allow my slave to continue her education.
No, as much as I believe in and support the military (former Marine), I would not allow my slave to enter military service.
Let me explain. By definition, anyone in the military has only 1 master (the USA) as such she would not be free to service ME without conflicting with her military duties to say nothing of the loss of her services for extended periods of time due to deployments.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 6:40:13 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I cannot even imagine what it must be like to live in the hellhole that you call a mind.


Have you considered applying for a patent?

"Method for altering mental status of listener so as to impede communication prior to onset of speech or writing."

Seriously, when a conversation is set up to miscarry, do you aim for (a) abortion, or (b) infanticide?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 7:08:35 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		...


< Message edited by Aswad -- 7/26/2009 8:01:18 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 7:34:07 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		...


< Message edited by Aswad -- 7/26/2009 8:01:32 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 7:58:57 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		My apologies to mod11. I didn't see the comment about keeping replies to the second thread until several such replies had been made on my part. Too late to edit the first one, but the rest have been nixed.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 7/26/2009 8:04:30 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/26/2009 8:28:50 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

I thought we were discussing the unconditional surrender that is the basis of the TPE relationship.


TPE is a term that defines a set of mutual expectations.

Sometimes, expectations and reality diverge when life throws us a curveball. Then we try to bring our expectations in line with reality, or vice versa, which is called "dealing." Quite regardless of the style of relationship, expectations exist, and dealing with life occurs. I don't happen to live in some radically different reality than you do. I just have different expectations, that's all. And I define things in terms of those expectations and goals; the curveballs are implicit, as is dealing with them. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy; doesn't mean we can't start out with one in mind.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 4:14:39 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

quote:

TPE: I'm submitting to you and putting myself into your hands without condition.




It seems to me that there are always conditions, and you cannot know, any more then the submissive can know. how she would react if faced with an untenable situation, ie life or death, be it physical or emotional.

In my opinion your argument only holds true if one believes that the "slave" in a TPE relationship cannot physically or emotionally walk away, because to me that is  the biggest condition of them all.

Because otherwise I think there remains the need for a certain amount of  suspension of belief in order for what you consider to be the reality to exist, which by the way is not necessarily a bad thing.




Greetings,

I think the biggest problem you are having in understanding the TPE mindset is the fact that you see the inability to walk away as a condition set by the slave.
I agree that it is a condition that exists for the maintained a TPE relationship, but it isn't the slave putting it there any more then the condition that the owner is still alive and breathing is there because it's put there by the slave, or the condition that the owner still wants to own the slave is there put by the slave, or the condition that world doesn't explode is put there by the slave.

These are all conditions that need to be in place in order for the TPE to exist, but none of them are demanded by the slave -or the owner for that matter.

For me the difference between a TPE and a non-TPE is the following:

Non-TPE: I promises to obey you if and when you meet conditions X, Y and Z. Should you no longer meet conditions X, Y and Z then I revoke my promises to obey you because you breached our agreement.

TPE: You compel me to obey you because of X, Y and Z qualities that I see in you that makes me need to be with you. Because you compel me to obey, I have no choice but to obey you until that time that you would no longer compel me to obey.

The first is making a deal with a preset concequence to the breach of that deal.
The second is a confession of sorts; it's the admittance of free will being taken away and the acknowledgment of the reason why that happened.

The TPE slave does not promise their obedience, because they cannot promises to be compelled by the owner any more then somebody can promise to be in love.
Likewise, the slave is also not able to predict what circumstances would make that they would be no longer compelled to obey their owner. In most cases, the power an owner has over their slave would not be strong enough to make the slave be compelled to obey the order to have their head chopped off. However, there are some cases where this might happen because the owner's will is strong enough to get this done. Either way, the slave is at no point in time demanding the condition that the owner would or would not be strong enough to get such a thing done. They are only acknowledging that IF the owner's hold is strong enough it WOULD happen, and if the owner's hold is not strong enough it would not happen.

If the slave is no longer compelled to obey, the TPE is over (although it might revert to a non-TPE relationship) just like the relationship would be over if the world would explode.
However, the slave is at no time demanding the owner to compel them, instead they are just acknowledging that the nature of their relationship requires the owner to be able to compel the slave.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 7/27/2009 5:07:06 AM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 6:05:21 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

"Method for altering mental status of listener so as to impede communication prior to onset of speech or writing."

Seriously, when a conversation is set up to miscarry, do you aim for (a) abortion, or (b) infanticide?



Patenting a linguistic pattern....hmmm.... I like it.  I wonder if I could write an algorithm that would scour the web looking for those who had infringed.  You may be onto something, my friend.

Yeah, meta-commenting is a known communication buster.  It can be useful in pubic communications at times as a lever to either get someone to realize that they are being an idiot, or, failing that, get them to be even more of an idiot, so that the quality becomes more obvious, if you know what I mean.


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 8:05:09 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 373
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		Sounds to me like there are two types of TPE relationships....

TPE for a 'Free Woman'... she decides that she trusts her partner to make the final decisions... so she chooses to defer to him and his decisions.  When she no longer feels she can do that, she chooses the door... or perhaps, they renegotiate their arrangement.

TPE for a 'slave'... she is compelled to obey her Master because her need to belong to Him is such that she will do as she is told to be kept by him.    When the day ever comes that she no longer feels that need (she is no longer compelled to belong to him), she will leave.


I think Orion in a few posts above, although he used the word 'slave'... best articulated the former, and ishy, a few posts above, best articulated the latter.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 1:26:01 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Given this definition I'm curious as to what would happen if the M, say, had a stroke or accident & ended up in a vegetative coma & the choice was made to keep that person alive thru machines & nursing care. What would you, if you were that person's slave, see as your course of action?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

TPE: You compel me to obey you because of X, Y and Z qualities that I see in you that makes me need to be with you. Because you compel me to obey, I have no choice but to obey you until that time that you would no longer compel me to obey.



(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 2:58:13 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Slave is a pretty subjective term on this side of the bridge, and that is why I put it in those terms. Theories are nice until put into practice, I have found and learned from.



quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves


I think Orion in a few posts above, although he used the word 'slave'... best articulated the former, and ishy, a few posts above, best articulated the latter.

~sgs


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 4:46:34 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Given this definition I'm curious as to what would happen if the M, say, had a stroke or accident & ended up in a vegetative coma & the choice was made to keep that person alive thru machines & nursing care. What would you, if you were that person's slave, see as your course of action?

 



Greetings,

I'm assuming you mean what would I do if both my Master and Mistress were in such a state, because if not I would continue the other.

That would depend on the level of devotion I had for said man prior to it happening...
In other words, it would depend on if the memory of him would be enough to compel me to serve him.

Again compare it to love, how much love would be needed to keep you there in such a situation?
Now double that amount and you would probably have the amount of devotion a girl like me would need to have to stick around.

If my devotion ran deep, I would probably keep serving him for a very long time to come -if not till the very end- even if said serving might only be by visiting.
In other areas of my life, my obedience to his will would probably fade away pretty fast on most things (though most likely not all), simple because he would no longer be able to control them things, or even care about them.

If my devotion was not deep, I would probably be out of there pretty fast and go do something else with my life; Most likely find a new man that could compel me.

In both situations, if I would meet another man that could compel me to obey, then I would submit to his will and do what he thought best.

I know this sounds selfish and coldhearted, because well, it is selfish and cold coldhearted, but it just seems to be how I am wired to respond.
Master is fully aware of what my reactions would be in a situation like that, which is exactly why he keeps me as a slave and not something else.
Even if he was not married, I would never be his wife, lover, girlfriend of partner, exactly because he knows I would react like that. He does not have the expectation of me that I would take responsibilities that I am not naturally inclined to take; thus he keeps me as his slave and removes the responsibilities for decisions like that from me.
He wouldn't expect me to suddenly start taking the responsibility for decision like that just because he is no longer around, in fact, quit the opposite. I think he would expect me to go do stupid stuff instead.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 7/27/2009 4:50:23 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to DemonKia)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 4:56:25 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Given this definition I'm curious as to what would happen if the M, say, had a stroke or accident & ended up in a vegetative coma & the choice was made to keep that person alive thru machines & nursing care. What would you, if you were that person's slave, see as your course of action?


Just because a time may come wherein the Man is incapable of holding me and compeling me doesn't mean i would necessarily LEAVE him depending on the circumstances, but i would regain my autonomy and self-determination and i would no longer be a slave to him. And therefore, there would no longer be a TPE. Sorry but holding myself in slavery for the sake of dynamic that no longer exists isn't plausible. What most people don't get is M/s is NOT the equivolent to husband and wife til death do us part or in sickness and in health we remain a slave just cause he or i want me to live by such a label. Doesn't mean i would necessarily leave -- as i said it depends on the situation -- but in some situations i may. I am his slave, not his wife, and if i don't get all the benefits of a wife, i won't feel its my DUTY to sit around because i was in a TPE with him that he is no longer capable of maintaining and feeding MY needs that go with that TPE and pretending i am such when the going gets tough. I would i suspect eventually seek out a Man who could fulfill my needs to be a slave, or i may not.

If i am not a wife, i won't play one on TV. If i am a slave, and that slavery ends because of his inability to maintain same, i won't go through the motions of pretending i still am his slave to humor him or myself. If i care enough about him, i may choose to continue on with him in a different status and life or i may not. It all depends, but one thing i would no longer be -- is his slave -- which is okay,

angel





< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/27/2009 4:57:19 PM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 5:08:40 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		Lol Angel, again you put it way better than me, thanks.

< Message edited by ishyB -- 7/27/2009 5:10:28 PM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 5:19:36 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

Sounds to me like there are two types of TPE relationships....

TPE for a 'Free Woman'... she decides that she trusts her partner to make the final decisions... so she chooses to defer to him and his decisions. When she no longer feels she can do that, she chooses the door... or perhaps, they renegotiate their arrangement.

TPE for a 'slave'... she is compelled to obey her Master because her need to belong to Him is such that she will do as she is told to be kept by him. When the day ever comes that she no longer feels that need (she is no longer compelled to belong to him), she will leave.



I agree with what you are saying here but either way when she is ready to leave she leaves, and so her submission is only unconditional until she choses to apply conditions. I think the reasons for her doing so are irrelevant, and I realize that this is where you and I would differ, but in my mind the reality is that she does have that power.

One could argue that she surrenders that right upon entering the relationship, and she does, but if she does so with the unspoken caveat that if her needs and expectations are no longer met, for whatever reason, she will leave, then that is unconditional in in the same way that a dream is real.

See I think the mistake of those who define a TPE as unconditional is that they create a false expectation for themselves that cannot exist in the real world. Why not accept that nothing is unconditional, and that the relationship is a unique dynamic based on mutual need, and as Aswad said, mutual expectations?

Because in the end, that really should be enough.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 5:26:09 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

You know, it really does not matter if someone understands the concept of TPE/APE/authority transfer/blah blah blah

There is always going to be a group that insists it's not possible; and there's always going to be a group who insists it is possible.

Who cares. I mean...really...who gives a flying fuck if the person standing next to you understands or agrees with you or not.

I know what kind of relationship I had...I understand and have lived the concept of TPE/APE...I also understand why the opposing side insists that it does not exist.

It does not matter one bit who agrees or disagrees; it does not matter one bit who understands or does not understand.

As long as you are happy in your own beliefs/ideas/concepts; and as long as they work for YOU...that's all that matters.


_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 5:31:22 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Umm Irish lol its just a discussion babe, i doubt anything said on this thread will be life altering to anyone participating.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 5:35:02 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

I know what kind of relationship I had...I understand and have lived the concept of TPE/APE...I also understand why the opposing side insists that it does not exist.



There is no opposing side, only different viewpoints, and if that upsets you or if you feel that it somehow demeans what you had, that  is you issue to deal with, not mine.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Master/slave questions - 7/27/2009 5:38:46 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hi SlyStone -- on many levels i think people misunderstand the concept of unconditional -- the unconditional part only exists when and if the dynamic exists, the dynamic only exists if the variables that create the dynamic exist, and therefore, while those variables exist and are strong, the unconditional concept does in fact very much exist -- he is in full determination OF what occurs in the relationship because HE as the Master has been able to master the woman and hold her TO his determinations as a whole concept. Yes at times she IS disobedient but disobedience has nothing to do with the concept of TPE - the mere fact she is considered disobedient gives reason that the TPE exists.

However, IF it happens wherein the Man loses his ability to maintain what he determines and loses his mastery over the girl and his hold, then the TPE no longer exists and therefore, the unconditional aspect that was part of the relationship no longer exists.

Many people believe unconditional means the woman holds herself to that concept -- she really doesn't, HE holds her to same because of his strength and hold on her through things such as mastery and enslavement which gives him the control he needs to have the ability to create the atmosphere of existance for her that she exists UNCONDITIONALLY on her part in his life because HE determines it to be so and can practice what he preaches so to speak lol.

People always seem to see unconditional as an ACTIVELY defined concept of actions and doings instead of simply the whole of the relationship that exists unconditionally on his determinations. If he stops determining and maintaining the hold, the dynamic is gone and therefore, so is the unconditional aspect.

angel

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 180
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