RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 7:29:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I understand that you cannot repeal the actions that you disagree with Panda but presumably you can repeal the legislation that authorised them?
I know he took the oath polite but all advisors in all administration will discuss all options, that's just how it works.


Which is the point you keep missing.

There is no legislation that authorized any of this.

Which was the point of the article.  The Bush administration brought in legal advisers to write opinions that twisted and distorted the law to provide cover for their actions.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 7:36:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

So far Obama has said that no charges will be brought under the mistaken belief that charges against members of the previous administration are a slippery slope.
that smacks of same old, same old to me. You know, as time goes by I am more and more agreeing with those who say Obama's talk of change was just campaign bullshit. besides, isn't the judiciary supposed to be independant of the Executive? Seems to me like we have Obama excercising undue political influence on a supposedly independant judiciary. What say you all?


I say I feel more disillusioned and discouraged every day. I actually spent 2 hours yesterday researching Canada's immigration laws. I can't think of much more to say on the subject beyond that at the moment.




Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 8:12:28 PM)

quote:

I do not think that repealing it will be that easy. I think that the republicans will fight tooth and nail to keep it. As if Obama needs another fight right now.
He has the numbers to force it through if he had the desire to do so, but I suspect political expediency is dictating his actions. You might say we can't really blame him, but I say we can. He was the one who led us to believe we could expect something different from him. He set the bar where it is, nobody else.




Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 8:14:57 PM)

quote:

I say I feel more disillusioned and discouraged every day. I actually spent 2 hours yesterday researching Canada's immigration laws. I can't think of much more to say on the subject beyond that at the moment.
Hey you're welcome anytime, just set foot across the border and claim refugee status....that way you will be guaranteed a stay of roughly 2 years on our oh-so generous welfare (not enough to rent a bachelor apartment by the way).[:D]

Seriously though, if you speak french then Quebec has some very generous immigration programs.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 10:26:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

I say I feel more disillusioned and discouraged every day. I actually spent 2 hours yesterday researching Canada's immigration laws. I can't think of much more to say on the subject beyond that at the moment.
Hey you're welcome anytime, just set foot across the border and claim refugee status....that way you will be guaranteed a stay of roughly 2 years on our oh-so generous welfare (not enough to rent a bachelor apartment by the way).[:D]

Seriously though, if you speak french then Quebec has some very generous immigration programs.



That's very good information, Arpig. Sounds very useful. Fact is, I do parlez pretty well. Or at least Kittinsol thinks I do. I'm a little rusty, but it wouldn't take much to brush up. And Quebec has no fewer than 3 NHL teams... hmmmmm....

Thanks for the info. I'm going to be looking at this a lot more over the next year or so. I may have some questions for you along the way, if you don't mind, but then I owe you a couple of e-mails about that other thing we discussed anyway. I'll definitely be keeping in touch.





Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 10:31:05 PM)

quote:

And Quebec has no fewer than 3 NHL teams... hmmmmm....
errrrrr, not exactly....there's the Montreal Canadians, and....nope, that's it. There used to be a team in Quebec, the Nordiques (or as we liked to call them, the No-Dicks[:D]), but they moved to Colorado. However, on the bright side Montreal is a really wonderful town, even if it is full of maudit seperatistes.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 10:39:56 PM)

Isn't Ottawa in Quebec, or is it on the other side of the Ontario border? And yeah, I was including Toronto in my off-the-cuff list, but actually erred on two counts. First, by forgetting that Toronto is in Ontario, and second, by considering the Leafs an NHL team.

I used to love watching the Nords back in the day, when the Stastny brothers were all playing together. I loved the name of that line; "The Law Firm". Stastny, Stastny, and Stastny. The chemistry they had together; each one of them knew exactly where the other two were at any given moment, and where the other two were going to be in a couple of seconds. They passed that puck around like it was on a string. I remember Minnesota's radio announcer exclaiming in exasperation one night, "You know, the Nordiques could save a lot of money by turning out the lights whenever those guys are on the ice, because they could play together in the dark."




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 11:14:46 PM)

Panda,

I guess I'll have to disappoint those who expected me to spend 15 pages to "defend" Bush on this subject.

There was some pretty interesting discussions, anyway.

The reason that I've not spent time "defending" anyone in this is that (not only do I have a life) the issue is all a chimera anyway. At least, if you want to base the discussion on the NYT article.

The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion.  Not a single fact that this even occurred.  Not even two sources, that any reputable story should have (hell, the National Enquirer requires two sources for UFO stories, even if they have to make them both up!).

Hell, don't get me wrong.  It may well be true ... but "may be" and "is" is the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

This entire thread is based on an unsubstantiated rumor, and feed by the paranoia and gullibility of some on the left.

Firm




Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/26/2009 11:56:11 PM)

quote:

Isn't Ottawa in Quebec, or is it on the other side of the Ontario border? And yeah, I was including Toronto in my off-the-cuff list, but actually erred on two counts. First, by forgetting that Toronto is in Ontario, and second, by considering the Leafs an NHL team.
Nope, Ottawa is in Ontario, just across the river from Quebec (thus the ability to buy beer 365 days a year[sm=chug.gif]). And you are right, the Toronto MakeBelieves don't really count.

ETA: In the interest of fairness, the Ottawa team's nickname is the Ottawa Janitors, due to their penchant for being swept from the playoffs.




Politesub53 -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 2:31:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

It's not nonsense polite sub and I think the fact that people won't vote for another party regardless of their owns actions is a damning indictment of our democracy. If for example teh government decided that to protect us from terrorist attack we needed to execute all muslims I would hope that those who usually vote labour would not do so. If they still did then frankly I would see nothing in the country worth protecting or indeed voting for.
THe oath is important for a number of reasons largely because it makes goverenment's culpable to the people they rule. however it also doesn't cover every eventuality. Therefore I can understand why it can be occasionally ignored provided that the culpability is still there so we can decide for ourselves the justification for the action.



You are right about our democracy, thats the way the two party system has made it. No mining community would ever vote Tory, the bulk of the middle classes wont ever vote Labour.

The oath isnt suppossed to cover every eventuality, its to make sure elected officials uphold existing laws. Any move away from that is a move towards dictatorship




Starbuck09 -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 6:56:43 AM)

Rule I understand that no legislation was brought in for this which is why I believe when a government decides to bend or break the law/constitution it should be judged by the citizenry on it's relative merits. What I am wondering though is that there is some legislation such as the patriot act and quite a few others that many Americans believe is unconstitutional. Surely in that case the present administration could repeal it or at the very least make moves to do so. As far as I am awarte [and I concede I could be wrong] there has been no such action. From that I  think it is fair to draw two deductions. One is that Obama was somewhat liberal with the truth and despite assuring great change the actual scope of what he is prepared to change in american politics is far narrower then many who voted for him were led to believe. Second that despite their unpopularity this administration actually thinks that this legislation is neccesary  at the moment.
The fact that bush had people that would on occasion twist the law so they coukld take the action they felt was neccesary to protect the people they were responsible for is scarcely a unique example in history. In fact it is the rule rather than the exception.




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 7:41:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Panda,

I guess I'll have to disappoint those who expected me to spend 15 pages to "defend" Bush on this subject.

There was some pretty interesting discussions, anyway.

The reason that I've not spent time "defending" anyone in this is that (not only do I have a life) the issue is all a chimera anyway. At least, if you want to base the discussion on the NYT article.

The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion.  Not a single fact that this even occurred.  Not even two sources, that any reputable story should have (hell, the National Enquirer requires two sources for UFO stories, even if they have to make them both up!).

Hell, don't get me wrong.  It may well be true ... but "may be" and "is" is the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

This entire thread is based on an unsubstantiated rumor, and feed by the paranoia and gullibility of some on the left.

Firm


Back in the real world the NYT articles states at least twice that the story has multiple sources.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 7:57:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Panda,

I guess I'll have to disappoint those who expected me to spend 15 pages to "defend" Bush on this subject.

There was some pretty interesting discussions, anyway.

The reason that I've not spent time "defending" anyone in this is that (not only do I have a life) the issue is all a chimera anyway. At least, if you want to base the discussion on the NYT article.

The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion.  Not a single fact that this even occurred.  Not even two sources, that any reputable story should have (hell, the National Enquirer requires two sources for UFO stories, even if they have to make them both up!).

Hell, don't get me wrong.  It may well be true ... but "may be" and "is" is the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

This entire thread is based on an unsubstantiated rumor, and feed by the paranoia and gullibility of some on the left.

Firm


Back in the real world the NYT articles states at least twice that the story has multiple sources.


For sources, the article only says this:

quote:

It cited former administration officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.


Hmmm, I guess that they met at least the National Enquirer standard ... who do you think it was: the janitor and a Democratic leaning secretary?

I heard that Obama was planning on bringing Clinton's UN black helicopter brigade back ... I know it's true because a friend of my ex-wife's hairdressers high school daughter heard it from their dog walker, and a homeless guy that they passed on the street ...

Rumor. Unsubstantiated. A Chimera, until something of more heft and weight is produced than what is cited.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 8:47:45 AM)

oh, hell ... the NYT itself admits it has a problem with anonymous sources:

Those Persistent Anonymous Sources

quote:


By CLARK HOYT
Published: March 21, 2009

THE Times has a tough policy on anonymous sources, but continues to fall down in living up to it. That’s my conclusion after scanning a sampling of articles published in all sections of the paper since the first of the year. This will not surprise the many readers who complain to me that the paper lets too many of its sources hide from public view.


How about a NYT admission that the entire "John McCain had an affair" was a BS story, based on "unsubstantiated sources":

quote:

Anonymous sources have provided some of the most important information in The Times, like the disclosure of the Bush administration’s extralegal bugging of international communications. But they have embarrassed the newspaper too, as with unsubstantiated suggestions that John McCain had an extramarital affair with a lobbyist.


The industry has been aware of the problem for a long time. For "Editor and Publisher":

The 'Times' Addiction to Anonymous Sources
Published: May 22, 2003
This unsigned editorial appeared in the May 19 issue of E&P.

quote:


The real lesson from the Blair affair is that the Times' system for dealing with accuracy in its newspaper and discipline in its newsroom is badly broken -- if, indeed, any system exists. It's all very well to "trust" reporters, as Times executives insistently declared, but the dull credulity top editors evinced throughout this episode suggests they have not learned the first thing the old hardscrabble City News Bureau in Chicago told its greenest recruits: If your mother says she loves you, check it out.

How is it, for instance, that The New York Times could be gulled into publishing on its front page a story accusing a teenager of being the triggerman in the Washington-area sniper attacks -- without any editor apparently ever asking the tyro reporter to identify these unnamed "law-enforcement officials" he is quoting?

One inescapable conclusion from this scandal is that the Times has developed an addictive tolerance for anonymous sources, the crack cocaine of journalism. The Times could not go cold turkey even in its extraordinary Mother's Day cataloging of Blair's journalistic sins, an occasion that cried out for 100% on-the-record reporting. For no apparent reason other than habit, an entirely innocuous e-mail message was attributed to "one fellow reporter."


Until someone comes forward and allows their name - and credibility and reasons - to be vetted, until someone produces the official document and agenda where it was proposed, you and the rest have zip, zero, nada real facts and information, and are working on your biases and an ideological basis.

Hell, even if it occurred, how the hell do you know that part of the proposal wasn't to request that the local (state?) authorities to request military support?

That would make it totally legal under the terms of Posse Comitatus, now wouldn't it?

But .. I don't know, and neither does anyone else in this thread. Until we have facts, we are guessing, assuming, and bullshitting.

Talk about it all you want, but recognize it's intellectual masturbation to date.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 9:41:11 AM)

Slow down man, the back pedaling is getting a little frenzied.

Yes of course I would prefer a couple of on the record sources, and I bet we'll have them within a year, but unless you have some contradictory statements or denials from Cheney or Rice or any of the other principals named in the piece it is reasonable to view it as factual.

But you keep right on attacking the Times and never acknowledge that you flat out made up your first post without bothering to read the article in question.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 9:44:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Slow down man, the back pedaling is getting a little frenzied.

Yes of course I would prefer a couple of on the record sources, and I bet we'll have them within a year, but unless you have some contradictory statements or denials from Cheney or Rice or any of the other principals named in the piece it is reasonable to view it as factual.

But you keep right on attacking the Times and never acknowledge that you flat out made up your first post without bothering to read the article in question.


Bull.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 9:47:09 AM)

Under the Democratic controlled Congress's passage of the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007, it appears (at least on first glance), that it would now be perfectly legal for Obama to do exactly what the Bush Admin is being castigated for even considering.

Where's the damn outrage?

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 9:48:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

But you keep right on attacking the Times and never acknowledge that you flat out made up your first post without bothering to read the article in question.

hmmm ... what fact did I make up?

I read it, saw it was all "anonymous" BS. I gave more facts in my initial post that was contained in the NYT article.

This is a deflection tactic on your part now, isn't it?

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 10:34:42 AM)

Calm down Firm. You got busted. It happens when you play fast and loose with facts as often as you do. Getting angry just makes it funnier.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 3:07:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Calm down Firm. You got busted. It happens when you play fast and loose with facts as often as you do. Getting angry just makes it funnier.


Nice deflection attempt.

You've yet again posted a snarky, snide, dismissive sentence when you can't address the actual issue.

Deflect. Deny. Attack.

Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Address the specifics:

1. Is the source(s) of the information worthy of belief?

2. If so, on what do you base this opinion? The sheer fact that it was published in the NYT? See my earlier post on THAT issue.

3. Is there any kind of supporting documentation or facts anywhere else?

4. What was the actual "proposal" (if there was one)? Does it require a request from the local jurisdiction for the US military to get involved? Or does it propose bypassing all civilian authority. (Not your opinion - the facts.)

5. Could Obama actually do what was proposed (maybe) to Bush - and it be completely legal now? Why isn't that the topic of the thread? You think Bush still has the capability to order such a thing? What about Obama?


... or simply shut up and drop your superior attitude and smarmy faux bonhomie if you refuse to address the issues and my questions.


Firm




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