RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (Full Version)

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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 3:46:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Hey hey get in there Arpig you know it makes sense![;)]

I don't know how many other debated were turned into action which violated your constitution i'm only pointing out that clearly this wasn't one of them. I don't think this is anything to with the mindset of that administration I am sure that all governments no matter what party will have discussions like this, all angles are weighed up before a course of action is decided upon especially in a delicate situation like this. I suspect that this was just a slow news week that's all.


Soooo, did you notice that thing about a historic change in U.S. policy that allowed a preemptive war? 

Or that nagging matter of holding prisoners in a legal limbo where they were neither POW's nor criminals?

How about when the law was twisted to the point that torture became "harsh interrogation"?

All of these things came out of the types of discussions you are trying to defend.










None of which are abusive under the law. In your eye maybe they are, to mine they arent.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 3:56:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Calm down Firm. You got busted. It happens when you play fast and loose with facts as often as you do. Getting angry just makes it funnier.


Nice deflection attempt.

You've yet again posted a snarky, snide, dismissive sentence when you can't address the actual issue.

Deflect. Deny. Attack.

Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Address the specifics:

1. Is the source(s) of the information worthy of belief?

2. If so, on what do you base this opinion? The sheer fact that it was published in the NYT? See my earlier post on THAT issue.

3. Is there any kind of supporting documentation or facts anywhere else?

4. What was the actual "proposal" (if there was one)? Does it require a request from the local jurisdiction for the US military to get involved? Or does it propose bypassing all civilian authority. (Not your opinion - the facts.)

5. Could Obama actually do what was proposed (maybe) to Bush - and it be completely legal now? Why isn't that the topic of the thread? You think Bush still has the capability to order such a thing? What about Obama?


... or simply shut up and drop your superior attitude and smarmy faux bonhomie if you refuse to address the issues and my questions.


Firm


welcome to the bizarro world of DK.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 4:14:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

welcome to the bizarro world of DK.

Yup.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 4:38:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Calm down Firm. You got busted. It happens when you play fast and loose with facts as often as you do. Getting angry just makes it funnier.


Nice deflection attempt.

You've yet again posted a snarky, snide, dismissive sentence when you can't address the actual issue.

Deflect. Deny. Attack.

Rinse, cycle, repeat.

Address the specifics:

1. Is the source(s) of the information worthy of belief?

2. If so, on what do you base this opinion? The sheer fact that it was published in the NYT? See my earlier post on THAT issue.

3. Is there any kind of supporting documentation or facts anywhere else?

4. What was the actual "proposal" (if there was one)? Does it require a request from the local jurisdiction for the US military to get involved? Or does it propose bypassing all civilian authority. (Not your opinion - the facts.)

5. Could Obama actually do what was proposed (maybe) to Bush - and it be completely legal now? Why isn't that the topic of the thread? You think Bush still has the capability to order such a thing? What about Obama?


... or simply shut up and drop your superior attitude and smarmy faux bonhomie if you refuse to address the issues and my questions.


Firm

I'll answer each of your questions as soon as you admit the lie in your first post on this matter. No weasel words and no semantics. You claimed the NYT article had no sources not that it had no sources you found acceptable. That is untrue and until you cease trying to deflect from that fact I will continue making fun of you for getting so worked up because I busted you on it.

Until then keep up the faux outrage. It's truly hilarious.




rulemylife -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 5:00:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


Soooo, did you notice that thing about a historic change in U.S. policy that allowed a preemptive war? 

Or that nagging matter of holding prisoners in a legal limbo where they were neither POW's nor criminals?

How about when the law was twisted to the point that torture became "harsh interrogation"?

All of these things came out of the types of discussions you are trying to defend.


None of which are abusive under the law. In your eye maybe they are, to mine they arent.


If there were not questions of legality we would not be having this conversation.






FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 5:28:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'll answer each of your questions as soon as you admit the lie in your first post on this matter. No weasel words and no semantics. You claimed the NYT article had no sources not that it had no sources you found acceptable. That is untrue and until you cease trying to deflect from that fact I will continue making fun of you for getting so worked up because I busted you on it.

Until then keep up the faux outrage. It's truly hilarious.

Where do you get this stuff from anyway? It would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

First ... be clear. Which "first post" of mine are you referring to, exactly? My first post in this thread didn't address anything about sources and the NYT.

If you mean my post (yesterday?) after 8 pages of sometimes interesting, sometimes crap comments about the dastardly Cheney and the "damn with faint praise" Bush?

Since you can't be clear, I'll assume the later. And, since you either did not bother to go back and read it before writing the post of yours I quoted - or you didn't understand it, intentionally or not - let me quote myself on the issue:

The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion. Not a single fact that this even occurred. Not even two sources, that any reputable story should have (hell, the National Enquirer requires two sources for UFO stories, even if they have to make them both up!).

You have either misstated my words, or you have a reading comprehension problem. To summarize and rephrase, I said:

1. The news story is meant to dredge up anti-Bush emotions and reactions.
2. There are no facts to discuss.
3. The source is not reputable
4. There were not two sources.

Since I hadn't read the story since the OP posted it, you pointed out my error of the missing "s" in "sources". I acknowledged my error in post 153:

Hmmm, I guess that they met at least the National Enquirer standard ...

I don't know if you have real problem with dyslexia or whether your just gloss over stuff you don't want to acknowledge. Regardless, it's your biggest fault and problem with anyone trying to engage you, and expect any sort of reasonable or rational conversation.

There is a big difference between claiming "no sources" and claiming only a single source.

And you refuse to address the other three points or the other points I've raised since. Which, I suspect, is the intent of your red herring about "no sources".

Your next failing is that you use inflammatory words in an attempt to put your rhetorical opponent off guard, and deflect from your failings to address the issue.

Which is what you have done through out this thread, and are attempting to do here, especially with the use of the word "lie". You are calling me a liar, even after I acknowledged my error in the one "source" versus "sources". And you use these type of "fighting words" to avoid addressing the issues.

Why? Because you have no answer, and aren't man enough to admit you are anything less than omniscient, or sly enough to simply shut up and slink away quietly. Maybe you didn't like it that I didn't fall down on my knees at the radiance of the DomKen, and abase myself with a cat-o-nine tails?

Pfffff!!

Grow up.

No, what I fully expect you to do, is again make specious, BS claims about "what I said", and "what I won't acknowledge" and avoid discussing any of the points I've brought up.

Can you prove me wrong?

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 5:29:23 PM)

Sorry, double post.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 5:30:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Report - Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo - NYTimes.com


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Bush administration in 2002 considered sending U.S. troops into a Buffalo, N.Y., suburb to arrest a group of terror suspects in what would have been a nearly unprecedented use of military power, The New York Times reported.

Vice President Dick Cheney and several other Bush advisers at the time strongly urged that the military be used to apprehend men who were suspected of plotting with al Qaida, who later became known as the Lackawanna Six, the Times reported on its Web site Friday night. It cited former administration officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The proposal advanced to at least one-high level administration meeting, before President George W. Bush decided against it.

Dispatching troops into the streets is virtually unheard of. The Constitution and various laws restrict the military from being used to conduct domestic raids and seize property.

According to the Times, Cheney and other Bush aides said an Oct. 23, 2001, Justice Department memo gave broad presidential authority that allowed Bush to use the domestic use of the military against al-Qaida if it was justified on the grounds of national security, rather than law enforcement.




So what?

I considered sending troops into Oskosh once....big fucking deal.




rulemylife -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 5:39:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

So what?

I considered sending troops into Oskosh once....big fucking deal.



Why?

To break up all the debauchery at the fly-in?




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 5:49:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

So what?

I considered sending troops into Oskosh once....big fucking deal.



Why?

To break up all the debauchery at the fly-in?



It was the farmers pants....B'Gosh.




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 6:14:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'll answer each of your questions as soon as you admit the lie in your first post on this matter. No weasel words and no semantics. You claimed the NYT article had no sources not that it had no sources you found acceptable. That is untrue and until you cease trying to deflect from that fact I will continue making fun of you for getting so worked up because I busted you on it.

Until then keep up the faux outrage. It's truly hilarious.

Where do you get this stuff from anyway? It would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

First ... be clear. Which "first post" of mine are you referring to, exactly? My first post in this thread didn't address anything about sources and the NYT.

If you mean my post (yesterday?) after 8 pages of sometimes interesting, sometimes crap comments about the dastardly Cheney and the "damn with faint praise" Bush?

Since you can't be clear, I'll assume the later. And, since you either did not bother to go back and read it before writing the post of yours I quoted - or you didn't understand it, intentionally or not - let me quote myself on the issue:

The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion. Not a single fact that this even occurred. Not even two sources, that any reputable story should have (hell, the National Enquirer requires two sources for UFO stories, even if they have to make them both up!).

You have either misstated my words, or you have a reading comprehension problem. To summarize and rephrase, I said:

1. The news story is meant to dredge up anti-Bush emotions and reactions.
2. There are no facts to discuss.
3. The source is not reputable
4. There were not two sources.
Since I hadn't read the story since the OP posted it, you pointed out my error of the missing "s" in "sources". I acknowledged my error in post 153:

"The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion. Not a single fact that this even occurred."
Seems pretty clear to me. You did admit that you didn't verify your claims before writing them so maybe we're making progress.

But still semantic games and bullshit. It's really simple a clear statement with no equication and I'll stop making fun of you and even answer your questions.

Until then please keep up the whinges they're better than the outrage over at 4chan about AT&T.

<various and sundry ad hominen attacks deleted>




Irishknight -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 6:26:39 PM)

OMG!!!!!! Bush thought about doing something!!!!!! Crucify him!!!!!!!

Dubya's gone. Get on with life people.




rulemylife -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 6:32:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

OMG!!!!!! Bush thought about doing something!!!!!! Crucify him!!!!!!!

Dubya's gone. Get on with life people.


And while we brush it off into the past as old news we then set ourselves up for the next Dubya who will understand that he is above the law and the cycle will continue.




gift4mistress -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 6:32:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

@gift4mistress, Just in case you haven't noticed, this thread IS about the Bush Admin. fucking over the Constitution. You can say we're losing sight of the important things if you like, but to my mind, getting us back to adherance to the Constiution takes far greater priority over the other issues you mentioned. If we don't play by our own rules, then we are corrupted, and become something not worth following.



BUSH THOUGHT ABOUT IT; HE DID NOT DO IT THEREFORE WHO CARES. I agree with what you are saying; our Constitution is the soul reason why our country is so successful. It is a blessing in disguise; however, there are so many more important issues then what *could have/would have happened.* By the way, one of the things that I listed as a problem with our current government is that it has not been following the constitution.

Bye the way, you are so focused on what Bush did that you are forgetting about what is currently happening. If you don't look forward while walking then what's to stop you from hitting something or tripping on your own feet?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 7:13:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'll answer each of your questions as soon as you admit the lie in your first post on this matter. No weasel words and no semantics. You claimed the NYT article had no sources not that it had no sources you found acceptable. That is untrue and until you cease trying to deflect from that fact I will continue making fun of you for getting so worked up because I busted you on it.

Until then keep up the faux outrage. It's truly hilarious.

Where do you get this stuff from anyway? It would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

First ... be clear. Which "first post" of mine are you referring to, exactly? My first post in this thread didn't address anything about sources and the NYT.

If you mean my post (yesterday?) after 8 pages of sometimes interesting, sometimes crap comments about the dastardly Cheney and the "damn with faint praise" Bush?

Since you can't be clear, I'll assume the later. And, since you either did not bother to go back and read it before writing the post of yours I quoted - or you didn't understand it, intentionally or not - let me quote myself on the issue:

The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion. Not a single fact that this even occurred. Not even two sources, that any reputable story should have (hell, the National Enquirer requires two sources for UFO stories, even if they have to make them both up!).

You have either misstated my words, or you have a reading comprehension problem. To summarize and rephrase, I said:

1. The news story is meant to dredge up anti-Bush emotions and reactions.
2. There are no facts to discuss.
3. The source is not reputable
4. There were not two sources.
Since I hadn't read the story since the OP posted it, you pointed out my error of the missing "s" in "sources". I acknowledged my error in post 153:

"The news story, and the OP about it have nothing other than fear and suspicion. Not a single fact that this even occurred."
Seems pretty clear to me. You did admit that you didn't verify your claims before writing them so maybe we're making progress.

But still semantic games and bullshit. It's really simple a clear statement with no equication and I'll stop making fun of you and even answer your questions.

Until then please keep up the whinges they're better than the outrage over at 4chan about AT&T.

<various and sundry ad hominen attacks deleted>

As I suspected ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firm

No, what I fully expect you to do, is again make specious, BS claims about "what I said", and "what I won't acknowledge" and avoid discussing any of the points I've brought up.

Can you prove me wrong?


As I expected ... deflection and bullshit.

You certainly didn't disappoint, or prove me wrong.

Firm




Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 8:27:33 PM)

Wow, this thread sure got derailed onto an irrelevant track. Hey DK, Firm admitted he made a mistake several times now, so why don't you both drop it, or will I have to dust off one of my annoying analogies about my kids (tips hat to rulemylife).

I am not going to bother questioning the veracity of the report, I fully believe the idea was considered. As has been pointed out several times, the fact that such a thing was considered is nothing new, or anything to be alarmed about.

Having reread the article, what I see as having happened is that there was a proposal made that federal troops could be used if the raid were defined as a national security issue rather than a law enforcement one. To the best of my knowledge, I believe this to be correct, though it would be somewhat of an end run around the intent of the existing laws. Bush decided not to try it. Why? Who cares, he decided not to try it. He didn't do anything except reject a proposal put to him.

Even the headline is biased, the word "mulled" gives the impression of having thought it over seriously, and we have no proof of that, he might have, but then again he might have rejected it out of hand. I really find it annoying to have to be arguing the same side as Firm and willbuer...we are natural opponents. Bush was a bastard of great proportion and he did plenty of things for which he can be vilified, but why in God's name are you wasting time trying to vilify him for not doing something that was of questionable legality.




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 9:22:37 PM)

Sorry Arpig, Firm has tossed around ad hom and accusations way too freely to get off. He simply made up facts and I busted him on that and he got mad becuase I made fun of him. I was clear and concise but he is finding it necessary to make 2 and 3 posts in succession whining about how mean I'm being. I gave him an out, a simple clear statement without weaseling or semantics and I'll drop it and answer his questions which considering the ad hominen attacks he's heaped on me seems very reasonable to me.




Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 10:04:28 PM)

Fair enough DK, but I doubt anybody but you gives a rat's ass.




DomKen -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 10:18:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Fair enough DK, but I doubt anybody but you gives a rat's ass.

Which is part of the problem honestly. Firm got caught in a lie, whether it was intentional or not is immaterial it was untrue. I called him on it, sarcastically. He could have simply admitted his error and been done with it. But he can't actually bring himself to actually simply and directly admit the error without ad hom or throwing out red herrings and I'm the only one holding him to a standard of honestly that frankly should be the standard not the exception.

I will also point out that beyond my acknowledging I'm getting a good laugh out of this I've been polite throughout this exchange. Can the same be said for Firm? Why am I the one you chose to address?




Arpig -> RE: Report: Bush Mulled Sending Troops Into Buffalo (7/27/2009 11:39:48 PM)

because you are the one continuing the hijack, that's why




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